Is there an NFL team with a weaker WR group than the Bills?

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I get that the Bills played one more game. It still doesn't explain why, if the 2024 passing offense was so bad, then why did the Buffalo offense finish #2 overall in the NFL in points scored? BTW, in 2020, the offense was also #2 overall...with...no...#1...WR! Buncha scrubs did that?

 

All these seasons since 2020, the offense has not been the problem, as it's the defensive injuries that have let them down every year. 

Imagine if you were a teacher and you had a student who was so gifted, so intelligent, so ahead of everybody else that you decided he just didn’t need your attention anymore. That it would be better to just focus your attention on everybody else who was further behind. Is it likely that genius student would hit his full potential? 
 

That is how the Bills treat our offense and Josh Allen. It’s as good as it is because of him and because he’s able to elevate the offense to that level we neglect it and put our attention into other things. Saying the whole time “well look at how great it is”. Talk about a curse. Being so good that you trick otherwise intelligent people into thinking you can’t grow anymore or become any better.
 

Let’s also be clear, most people here were asking for an investment in the form of a 4th or 5th round pick. Clearly the defense needed to be prioritized. But as a whole the way Beane and many of our fans look at this offense is just wrong. 

[Rock'em Sock'em]

11 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

I've been trying to think of a way to phrase my concern and "why do they keep banking on improvement on offense but replacement on defense?" is just perfect.

I don't know about "keep banking" (as in year after year), but for this year it makes sense.  Their offense was relatively young In 2024, they set the franchise record for points scored were top 10 in both rushing and passing.  The average age of their starters was about 26 years old.  Their defense was not as effective and was on average older, around 28.  So they are hoping for improvement of their effective and relatively young players on offense, and banking on a few replacement players to lift the defense a notch.  This team was a whisker from going to the Superbowl last year, let's hope the plan works.

Edited 9 hours ago by Rock'em Sock'em

[Big Turk]

51 minutes ago, Pete said:

In referring to our past few playoff exits.  As bad as the Defense played , the fact is the offense was in a position to win the game.  They have failed the past 2 seasons.  Dalton dropped it.  Diggs dropped it.  Bass shanked it.  Get WRs who can separate and we score TDs instead of failing 

 

Shakir was wide open in the endzone and Dawkins got shoved into Allen's left shoulder as he threw...he holds up for a half second longer and it was a TD.

 

 

[Nihilarian]

I understand that many here as simply asking for some better options at WR, and i agree to a point. What I've been saying is let's wait and see what the offense looks like with a healthy Coleman and Samuel. More time spent with the current receivers and Kincade/Allen and others will all have better continuity.

 

The last thing I want to see in Buffalo is another #1 WR diva like Diggs getting all the throws his way and still complaining. The Bills need receivers to step up in the playoffs and not fall on their face. My take is the Bills FO might feel like they have the right players to do just that.

 

So many are complaining about Kincade dropping a pass. Crap happens and it should have never come down that one pass while allowing that KC offense all day to throw. KC/Mahomes scored a season high 32 points against the Buffalo defense. 

[DCofNC]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think many fans disagree that rebuilding the defense should have been the main focus in this draft. It's just some of us wanted them to throw a bone to the offense too. Literally just use one decently high pick on a pass catcher. Is that so unfair? Trading up in the 4th when a couple vertical WRs were sitting there and instead taking yet another defensive lineman felt like total overkill to me.

 

Wait for next year, this team needed a complete overhaul of the D and made major strides to do it.  The offense was good last season and they added more than subtracted, plus get a couple guys back from injury and more experience.  I’m not saying I’m a huge Palmer fan, but Josh seems to elevate every WR he plays with and if the guy really can separate, then I’d bet he has a heck of a year. Shakir will be close to 1k and hopefully Kincaid is shown the weight room this offseason and comes ready to play.  With the running game being featured, there aren’t a lot of balls to go around from there.

[folz]

15 hours ago, Pete said:

Who is our outside WRs?  Where are they?  Did Keon play so good that we can count on him to be WR2?  Is Palmer WR 1?  Can we count on Samuels to be healthy the entire season?  Who is our 5th WR?
 

Palmer 1

Keon 2

Shakir slot

Samuels 

 

 

No question, our WR group alone would not be ranked highly. But, maybe you are looking at this offense too traditionally.

 

First off, the Bills like their players to be versatile, the ability to play multiple spots (to disguise better)---but yes, it will most likely be Palmer, Keon, and a bit of Samuel on the outside primarily. And currently at WR5 would be a battle between Shenault, Shavers, Prather, Hamler, Virgil, Presley, Akharaiyi, and Gosnell. But whose to say Beane is done yet? I'm all for adding more depth to the WR room (to compete for the 5/6 spots).

 

And then there is the whole "Everyone eats" thing. I mean, we use our RBs and TEs a lot in the passing game (those are "weapons" for Josh too). The RBs and TEs had 139 receptions last year and 12 TDs through the air. That equates to over 45% of our passing production last year and 43% of the receiving TDs. And that was mostly by design, not desperation. This offense is about Josh spreading the ball around. Also of note, we ran the ball 49% of the time last year (4th most in the league). So, when you add our rushing rate and the number of balls that go to the RBs and TEs in the passing game, I would guess that there are a lot fewer balls for the WRs on the Bills than on most other teams.

 

It seems most people who feel we are lacking at the WR spot want one of two things: 1. Either that true #1 Alpha dog stud receiver. Well, there aren't actually a lot of those guys to go around, first of all. And we're never high enough to draft one. Secondly, they cost a fortune. And lastly, I'm not sure that is what the Bills want. How many stud receivers are going to be ok with Josh spreading the ball around to 8 different targets per game, or almost half of the balls going to the TEs and RBs? I wouldn't turn down a stud receiver if he fell in our lap, but I'm not convinced that that is what this offense needs. Or, 2. A true speed receiver. But honestly, how many of those guys actually pan out? We have seen plenty of John Ross', Henry Ruggs', Marquise Goodwins', Tyquon Thortons, J.J. Nelsons, Jacoby Fords, Andy Isabellas, etc. not do much in the league. And I'm not sold on Worthy yet either. And we actually already have one of those guys of our own in K.J. Hamler. And if you bring up a guy like Tyreek, I'd say, well, he's not just a pure speed guy, he's a stud. That's why he's been one of the highest paid guys in the league. Again, tough to find guys like that.

 

Plus, as far as speed goes, KJ Hamler ran a 4.27, Curtis Samuel ran a 4.31, and Khalil Shakir ran a 4.43. We do actually have some speed on the team. FYI, Curtis Samuel has the 12th best 40-yard dash time ever at the combine for a wide receiver. 

 

I also can assume that you are not as bullish on Keon as I am. I think Keon is going to be a very good player and have an excellent season. I definitely think we can count on him as say a WR2. He'll at least be better than last year (with a year under his belt and being past the injury). If Samuel is healthy, that's an upgrade from last year. Not sure how Palmer will work out, but he's no question an upgrade from Hollins (whom I loved). And before you say Palmer is actually Amari's replacement, so it's a downgrade, I'd like to remind you that Amari only started 4 games last year and only played a total of 21% of the offensive snaps last season. We played 4/5ths of the season without Cooper and were still the #2 offense in the league. Hollins, on the other hand, played over 66% of the offensive snaps last year. And then, of course, let's face it, Shakir is a stud...even if it's mostly in the slot or on screens, etc.

 

Do we have a big name receiver? No. But I think last year showed that this offense can be successful without one. It's not that everything is on Josh, it's just that Josh is spreading the ball around to multiple targets rather than favoring a #1. Josh had the fewest sacks and fewest interceptions of his career last year (oh, and won the MVP). He also didn't have to run as much as some other seasons. He's had 3 seasons where he ran more than last year, and only 1 season where he ran significantly less than last year. So, I'm not on board with the Josh has to do it all by himself narrative either. I think we have plenty of weapons, just not household names. This offense is mostly about scheming guys open, which we can do because we have a lot of very good and versatile (even if few or no elite) weapons, and a supremely talented, smart QB, who can make quick decisions, and all of the throws. 

 

And if you don't think that fixing, upgrading, and bringing youth to the defense isn't giving Josh help, then I don't know what to tell you. Field position, turnovers, TOP, opponent's score, all help Josh and the offense. Complimentary football. 

[Bad Things]

We had the best offense in the history of the franchise, yet we lost because our WRs suck?

 

Yeah, that's some logical thinking.

[Mister Defense]

17 hours ago, Pete said:

Who is our outside WRs?  Where are they?  Did Keon play so good that we can count on him to be WR2?  Is Palmer WR 1?  Can we count on Samuels to be healthy the entire season?  Who is our 5th WR?
 

Palmer 1

Keon 2

Shakir slot

Samuels 

 

Buffalo saw more man to man coverage last season, because no one respects our WR.  We have had FA and the draft to correct that, and Beane has done Jack *****.

 

its going to take another Ravens curb stomping to make Beane panic and make another Amari like trade.

 

It’s the emperors new clothes.  We have yet to replace John Brown.  This offense needs a vertical component which it is sorely lacking.

 

I know Bills had great offense- after we acquired Amari.

 

We lose Mack and Amari, and added Palmer.  

 

Name a worse WR group.

 

What happens if there is a WR injury?  Is WR Beanes Achilles heal?

 

 

 

 

Hey Pete AKA Freddy, Woke up very early today, my dream's images still flying through my head of the 2025 Bills defense, known as the Monsters of Midway 2. Followed by images of Josh and I riding in a convertible, waving to the fans as we drive in the Buffalo parade.

 

It was very early this morning but I was soon on this site.  Yours was the first post there, after the pinned draft posts, so I read it.   And you shattered my dreams. 

 

Images of Josh wildly winging the ball down the field, with no wide receivers there to catch it, replaced the previous images.  The balls just bounced on the turf.

 

So I let you have it!  Deleting it now.

 

 

[NeverOutNick]

12 minutes ago, Bad Things said:

We had the best offense in the history of the franchise, yet we lost because our WRs suck?

 

Yeah, that's some logical thinking.

We lost because our coaching staff is out matched vs playoff spags and Andy. But yes the WRs also aren’t clutch or get the separation needed to keep Josh from having to be Superman 

[SoTier]

7 hours ago, chris heff said:

Top three receivers that game.

Ravens:

Justice 6-78

Likely 1-26

Bateman 1-23

 

Bills:

Shakir 6-62

Coleman 3-51

Kincaid 5-47

 

And yet the Ravens scored 35.

 

On the first Ravens play from scrimmage, Derek Henry ran 87 yards for a TD.  He finished with 199 yards on 24 rushing attempts (8.3 per carry) plus 3 receptions for 10 yards including a 1 TD.   Lamar Jackson ran for 1 TD.   Patrick Ricard recovered a Derek Henry fumble in the EZ for another TD.

It wasn't the Bills day.  Both the offense and the defense sucked.

 

7 hours ago, NeverOutNick said:

Valid points but does this mean we should avoid drafting potential star WR talent?

 

Realistically, how many "star WR talents" come out of rounds 4-7 in the 2020s?   There was a time when really talented WRs (and most other positions) could be found at the end of the draft, but those days are long gone.

 

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think many fans disagree that rebuilding the defense should have been the main focus in this draft. It's just some of us wanted them to throw a bone to the offense too. Literally just use one decently high pick on a pass catcher. Is that so unfair? Trading up in the 4th when a couple vertical WRs were sitting there and instead taking yet another defensive lineman felt like total overkill to me.

 

 

I think you should reread your post and consider what you are asking of Beane and company to do.  You are asking them to not only draft a player simply to placate a portion of the fan base, but to spend additional draft capital to do it.    Shades of Russ Brandon drafting EJ Manuel in 2013 to put butts in the seats!!!  👎

 

 

3 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Palmer should not be a starter.

 

He's just a JAG rotation guy which is what he was with the Chargers. He was the 4th/5th WR.

 

He's essentially the replacement for Mack who's really only a special teams guy.

 

Ask yourself this.

 

If Palmer was so good, why did the Chargers, a WR needy team let him go and draft 2 new WRs in this draft ?

 

If Palmer was any good why did the Chargers not resign him ?

 

They just let him go

 

'Cuz the Chargers are gonna Charger? 

 

2 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Imagine if you were a teacher and you had a student who was so gifted, so intelligent, so ahead of everybody else that you decided he just didn’t need your attention anymore. That it would be better to just focus your attention on everybody else who was further behind. Is it likely that genius student would hit his full potential? 
 

That is how the Bills treat our offense and Josh Allen. It’s as good as it is because of him and because he’s able to elevate the offense to that level we neglect it and put our attention into other things. Saying the whole time “well look at how great it is”. Talk about a curse. Being so good that you trick otherwise intelligent people into thinking you can’t grow anymore or become any better.
 

Let’s also be clear, most people here were asking for an investment in the form of a 4th or 5th round pick. Clearly the defense needed to be prioritized. But as a whole the way Beane and many of our fans look at this offense is just wrong. 

 

I don't have to imagine being a teacher because I was one many years ago.  Teachers do NOT select the students in the classrooms; that's the school administration's job.  Teachers and position coaches are analogous.  School administers and team executives are analogous.

 

Beane/McDermott have certainly NOT treated Josh Allen and the offense as a proverbial "red-headed stepchild".  I'm not going to delineate the players the Bills have drafted, signed as FAs or traded for to provide Allen with both targets and protection.  Your problem, sir, is that you think that only QBs and WRs matter to a good offense.   You apparently don't even count OLers or TEs or RBs as part of the offense.   Your way of looking at the draft is wrong for more than just your narrow vision of offense, however.  See my response above to Happy Days.  

 

Edited 6 hours ago by SoTier

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, DCofNC said:

Wait for next year, this team needed a complete overhaul of the D and made major strides to do it.  The offense was good last season and they added more than subtracted, plus get a couple guys back from injury and more experience.  I’m not saying I’m a huge Palmer fan, but Josh seems to elevate every WR he plays with and if the guy really can separate, then I’d bet he has a heck of a year. Shakir will be close to 1k and hopefully Kincaid is shown the weight room this offseason and comes ready to play.  With the running game being featured, there aren’t a lot of balls to go around from there.

I don’t want to “wait until next year” with Josh Allen in his prime. 

[NeverOutNick]

2 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Realistically, how many "star WR talents" come out of rounds 4-7 in the 2020s?   There was a time when really talented WRs (and most other positions) could be found at the end of the draft, those days are long gone.

 

It’s not about getting Star WRs (although that’s a plus). The WRs we have now are not stars, besides maybe Shakir (and he was a 5th round pick). It’s about consistently getting young, cheap WRs for Josh to work with, just like we do for the d line. Some will pan out and some won’t but it’s the right strategy when you have your franchise QB. The constant retread JAGs aren’t the answer and the good WRs cost too much on there second contract. 

[DCofNC]

8 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I don’t want to “wait until next year” with Josh Allen in his prime. 

Well, guess you might as well give up on this year before it starts.

[Billsfed1]

33 minutes ago, folz said:

 

No question, our WR group alone would not be ranked highly. But, maybe you are looking at this offense too traditionally.

 

First off, the Bills like their players to be versatile, the ability to play multiple spots (to disguise better)---but yes, it will most likely be Palmer, Keon, and a bit of Samuel on the outside primarily. And currently at WR5 would be a battle between Shenault, Shavers, Prather, Hamler, Virgil, Presley, Akharaiyi, and Gosnell. But whose to say Beane is done yet? I'm all for adding more depth to the WR room (to compete for the 5/6 spots).

 

And then there is the whole "Everyone eats" thing. I mean, we use our RBs and TEs a lot in the passing game (those are "weapons" for Josh too). The RBs and TEs had 139 receptions last year and 12 TDs through the air. That equates to over 45% of our passing production last year and 43% of the receiving TDs. And that was mostly by design, not desperation. This offense is about Josh spreading the ball around. Also of note, we ran the ball 49% of the time last year (4th most in the league). So, when you add our rushing rate and the number of balls that go to the RBs and TEs in the passing game, I would guess that there are a lot fewer balls for the WRs on the Bills than on most other teams.

 

It seems most people who feel we are lacking at the WR spot want one of two things: 1. Either that true #1 Alpha dog stud receiver. Well, there aren't actually a lot of those guys to go around, first of all. And we're never high enough to draft one. Secondly, they cost a fortune. And lastly, I'm not sure that is what the Bills want. How many stud receivers are going to be ok with Josh spreading the ball around to 8 different targets per game, or almost half of the balls going to the TEs and RBs? I wouldn't turn down a stud receiver if he fell in our lap, but I'm not convinced that that is what this offense needs. Or, 2. A true speed receiver. But honestly, how many of those guys actually pan out? We have seen plenty of John Ross', Henry Ruggs', Marquise Goodwins', Tyquon Thortons, J.J. Nelsons, Jacoby Fords, Andy Isabellas, etc. not do much in the league. And I'm not sold on Worthy yet either. And we actually already have one of those guys of our own in K.J. Hamler. And if you bring up a guy like Tyreek, I'd say, well, he's not just a pure speed guy, he's a stud. That's why he's been one of the highest paid guys in the league. Again, tough to find guys like that.

 

Plus, as far as speed goes, KJ Hamler ran a 4.27, Curtis Samuel ran a 4.31, and Khalil Shakir ran a 4.43. We do actually have some speed on the team. FYI, Curtis Samuel has the 12th best 40-yard dash time ever at the combine for a wide receiver. 

 

I also can assume that you are not as bullish on Keon as I am. I think Keon is going to be a very good player and have an excellent season. I definitely think we can count on him as say a WR2. He'll at least be better than last year (with a year under his belt and being past the injury). If Samuel is healthy, that's an upgrade from last year. Not sure how Palmer will work out, but he's no question an upgrade from Hollins (whom I loved). And before you say Palmer is actually Amari's replacement, so it's a downgrade, I'd like to remind you that Amari only started 4 games last year and only played a total of 21% of the offensive snaps last season. We played 4/5ths of the season without Cooper and were still the #2 offense in the league. Hollins, on the other hand, played over 66% of the offensive snaps last year. And then, of course, let's face it, Shakir is a stud...even if it's mostly in the slot or on screens, etc.

 

Do we have a big name receiver? No. But I think last year showed that this offense can be successful without one. It's not that everything is on Josh, it's just that Josh is spreading the ball around to multiple targets rather than favoring a #1. Josh had the fewest sacks and fewest interceptions of his career last year (oh, and won the MVP). He also didn't have to run as much as some other seasons. He's had 3 seasons where he ran more than last year, and only 1 season where he ran significantly less than last year. So, I'm not on board with the Josh has to do it all by himself narrative either. I think we have plenty of weapons, just not household names. This offense is mostly about scheming guys open, which we can do because we have a lot of very good and versatile (even if few or no elite) weapons, and a supremely talented, smart QB, who can make quick decisions, and all of the throws. 

 

And if you don't think that fixing, upgrading, and bringing youth to the defense isn't giving Josh help, then I don't know what to tell you. Field position, turnovers, TOP, opponent's score, all help Josh and the offense. Complimentary football. 

Nicely said and the last point is where I was going to go myself.  The defense needed a lot of help and they got it.

 

It’s more about handing Allen and the offense an extra 3-4 possessions a game and giving them great field position…they’ll handle the rest.

 

Next year they’ll be able to afford to go offense in the draft but I suspect it’ll be pretty even with a couple picks in the first 4 rounds.

[QLBillsFan]

12 hours ago, FireChans said:

I love the Bills. It hurts my heart to watch them waste their best chance in winning the big one in Josh Allen.

 

Palmer ***** SUCKS. He was getting outtargeted by Quinton Johnston who is a laughably bad WR with terrible hands and a borderline bust.

 

Im willing to bet you have never watched more than a single Chargers game so what are you even adding here RE: Palmer?

Palmer is in the top 10 in separation in the NFL. QJ had a good year and will break out this year. I’ve watched multiple LA games, Palmer is good. CS was injured most of the year, he will have an impact. Coleman will improve and he and Kincaid will be healthy. Kincaid got hurt because JA overthrew him wide open. The 5th wr will be Shavers most likely. Nice group, but in a weak WR draft you wanted who? In the 4th-6th ? 

[SoTier]

6 minutes ago, NeverOutNick said:

It’s not about getting Star WRs (although that’s a plus). The WRs we have now are not stars, besides maybe Shakir (and he was a 5th round pick). It’s about consistently getting young, cheap WRs for Josh to work with, just like we do for the d line. Some will pan out and some won’t but it’s the right strategy when you have your franchise QB. The constant retread JAGs aren’t the answer and the good WRs cost too much on there second contract. 

 

You do realize that most Day 3 picks at whatever position they play are lacking in at least one of these:  talent, experience or size.  Most of them will never be more than special teamers.  Those who do succeed usually take two or more seasons to become good pros, so a team has a "good pro" for only one or two years if that team doesn't re-sign the Day 3 picks who turn into their good pros.   That's the philosophy that the Drought Era regimes embraced and which is what resulted in the Bills missing the playoffs for 17 straight seasons.

[Mikie2times]

31 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

On the first Ravens play from scrimmage, Derek Henry ran 87 yards for a TD.  He finished with 199 yards on 24 rushing attempts (8.3 per carry) plus 3 receptions for 10 yards including a 1 TD.   Lamar Jackson ran for 1 TD.   Patrick Ricard recovered a Derek Henry fumble in the EZ for another TD.

It wasn't the Bills day.  Both the offense and the defense sucked.

 

 

Realistically, how many "star WR talents" come out of rounds 4-7 in the 2020s?   There was a time when really talented WRs (and most other positions) could be found at the end of the draft, but those days are long gone.

 

 

I think you should reread your post and consider what you are asking of Beane and company to do.  You are asking them to not only draft a player simply to placate a portion of the fan base, but to spend additional draft capital to do it.    Shades of Russ Brandon drafting EJ Manuel in 2013 to put butts in the seats!!!  👎

 

 

 

'Cuz the Chargers are gonna Charger? 

 

 

I don't have to imagine being a teacher because I was one many years ago.  Teachers do NOT select the students in the classrooms; that's the school administration's job.  Teachers and position coaches are analogous.  School administers and team executives are analogous.

 

Beane/McDermott have certainly NOT treated Josh Allen and the offense as a proverbial "red-headed stepchild".  I'm not going to delineate the players the Bills have drafted, signed as FAs or traded for to provide Allen with both targets and protection.  Your problem, sir, is that you think that only QBs and WRs matter to a good offense.   You apparently don't even count OLers or TEs or RBs as part of the offense.   Your way of looking at the draft is wrong for more than just your narrow vision of offense, however.  See my response above to Happy Days.  

 

Put a league average QB on this offense and we wouldn’t put up a top 15 PPG total. If you don’t think that is the case it’s not worth talking any further. Without Josh it completely falls apart. As it has for any offensive player who has left the Bills in the Allen era. Gabe Davis was our #2 for gods sake. Even more funny, he would probably still be today. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Mikie2times

[Kirby Jackson]

23 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Well, guess you might as well give up on this year before it starts.

You’re the one that said wait until next year….

[NeverOutNick]

7 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

You do realize that most Day 3 picks at whatever position they play are lacking in at least one of these:  talent, experience or size.  Most of them will never be more than special teamers.  Those who do succeed usually take two or more seasons to become good pros, so a team has a "good pro" for only one or two years if that team doesn't re-sign the Day 3 picks who turn into their good pros.   That's the philosophy that the Drought Era regimes embraced and which is what resulted in the Bills missing the playoffs for 17 straight seasons.

Tell this thinking to the packers regime who consistently have a plethora of WRs drafted in that range that seem to turn into instant contributors. If you want I can show you at least 10 mid round WRs from the past 2 years who are already contributing. Yes it may take them half a season or more to get in sync with their QB and an NFL playbook but it’s 4 years of cheap labor and then more often than not you get them on a team friendly deal like we did with Shakir 

[DCofNC]

8 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You’re the one that said wait until next year….

With valid reason, the commitments made at WR with contracts to Palmer, Shakir and Samuel make them locks, the 2nd round pick on Keon means you have to give him his opportunity.  There was no more money to spend and no real talent to make any difference in this draft, they restocked the D and replaced Knox for next offseason so they can make moves on the O.  What do you want? Push one of the aforementioned to the 5th WR role and still have gapping holes on the D?