Return of the Tre! (Tre White signs with the Bills)

[Mister Defense]

16 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Yeah we do see it differently.  in terms of player ability I have Benford > Johnson >>>> Rapp > Bishop. 

 

We don't have anyone penciled in for CB2 but we have top 10 players at CB1 and nickel.  Whereas with safety we dont and likely will not have a top 10 player (Bishop's ascension and certain draft scenarios outstanding).  I have way more confidence in the CB room than I do in the safety room and I think the safety room was more of the cause for the poor pass defense than the CB room (ask yourself which of these rooms had more player turnover). 

 

I think the difference in the e v a l is that you want hope.  That hope is there for CB with the minimal activity done (only players with minimal upside); whereas safety has a young early round pick and some new players also with upside.  However, I evaluate based on what I have seen which is top 10 players at 2/3 starting CB spots and not good play by Bishop and average play by Rapp.

 

I'll take it that you as well think the contract for Benford was a significant overpay and will hold the team back (the almost bare at CB comment is my basis)?  

 

Hmm... I do agree with the first bold above, that Benford and Johnson are better, more proven, than the combo of Rapp and Bishop. Hard for anyone to argue the other side of that, I think.    (It will likely be a very good year for the defense if that debate is more relevant in mid season or at the end of it.)

 

The problem with that equation is that there are 3 starting cornerbacks on every NFL team, so you are leaving out part of the equation.  But there is no one to really place in there, no starting caliber 2nd outside corner on the team now.  If you put that in the equation, White or Jackson or Ingram, or a '?', you would need to reverse the 'greater than' sign.

 

The reality is that on a team only two safeties usually play, just like two outside corners are almost always on the field.  And, like I said, believe, the Bills probably have two viable starting NFL safeties.  And decent depth as well. But the Bills, to me, may simply not even have a 2nd starting caliber outside corner on the team right now,  which is a player who will almost always need to be on the field.  With only 11 players per team, not having a viable starting CB would likely be very difficult to overcome, a huge risk as the Bills play Burrows, L Jackson, Mahomes, Tua, May, Hurtz, Mayfield, Stroud, Young...

 

That is one player, one quality starter, the Bills cannot afford to neglect--doing so could be enough to really undermine the team next year.

 

And nope, not sure why you think I would be opposed to Benford's contract. I I was very pleased the night I found out he was signed and thought the Bills got a good deal, was expecting maybe a 20 million+ per year deal. The waste I am concerned about at the position has to do with the signing of the warm bodies only, someone like White, who likely could have been had for the vet minimum, or not at all. I would much rather have one better player than what we now have in White and Jackson, two players I greatly admired and appreciated in their previous stints with the Bills. 

 

In any case, we both agree that the Bills need secondary help. You or I may be irritated if the position we want more is not addressed early in the draft, but it seems both of us will be really concerned if that position is is not addressed at all. And if we are both upset, as neither position was addressed early, then I think the Bills' likely will not improve much in their pass defense.

 

A few days until we get some answers!

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 10:26 AM by Mister Defense

[YattaOkasan]

2 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Hmm... I do agree with the first bold above, that Benford and Johnson are better, more proven, than the combo of Rapp and Bishop. Hard for anyone to argue the other side of that, I think.    (It will likely be a very good year for the defense if that debate is more relevant in mid season or at the end of it.)

 

The problem with that equation is that there are 3 starting cornerbacks on every NFL team, so you are leaving out part of the equation.  But there is no one to really place in there, no starting caliber 2nd outside corner on the team now.  If you put that in the equation, White or Jackson or Ingram, or a '?', you would need to reverse the 'greater than' sign.

 

The reality is that on a team only two safeties usually play, just like two outside corners are almost always on the field.  And, like I said, believe, the Bills probably have two viable starting NFL safeties.  And decent depth as well. But the Bills, to me, may simply not even have a 2nd starting caliber outside corner on the team right now,  which is a player who will almost always need to be on the field.  With only 11 players per team, not having a viable starting CB would likely be very difficult to overcome, a huge risk as the Bills play Burrows, Thomas, Mahomes, Tua, May, Hurtz, Mayfield, Stroud, Young...

 

That is one player, one quality starter, the Bills cannot afford to neglect--doing so could be enough to really undermine the team next year.

 

And nope, not sure why you think I would be opposed to Benford's contract. I I was very pleased the night I found out he was signed and thought the Bills got a good deal, was expecting maybe a 20 million+ per year deal. The waste I am concerned about at the position has to do with the signing of the warm bodies only, someone like White, who likely could have been had for the vet minimum, or not at all. I would much rather have one better player than what we now have in White and Jackson, two players I greatly admired and appreciated in their previous stints with the Bills. 

 

In any case, we both agree that the Bills need secondary help. You or I may be irritated if the position we want more is not addressed early in the draft, but it seems both of us will be really concerned if that position is is not addressed at all. And if we are both upset, as neither position was addressed early, then I think the Bills' likely will not improve much in their pass defense.

 

A few days until we get some answers!

 

 

 

K. Then not almost bare. A really good player (better than either safety) to start with. I think the combo of Benford and whomever (including Tre) will likely be better than safety. You don’t have to agree with that but I understand your original the cupboard is almost bare to be hyperbolic.  Agree we’re seeing it similar. I might have confused you with the banana dude re: benford contract.
 

Also I think you’re reading too much into tres contract. I would be shocked if his cap hit was 6 mil. I would expect his cap hit to be vet minimum and he has a ton of not likely to earned incentives. If that’s the case he’s essentially vet minimum which means it didn’t and isn’t keeping us from signing one good player. 

[Doc Brown]

4 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

The reality is that on a team only two safeties usually play, just like two outside corners are almost always on the field.  And, like I said, believe, the Bills probably have two viable starting NFL safeties.  And decent depth as well. But the Bills, to me, may simply not even have a 2nd starting caliber outside corner on the team right now,  which is a player who will almost always need to be on the field.  With only 11 players per team, not having a viable starting CB would likely be very difficult to overcome, a huge risk as the Bills play Burrows, Thomas, Mahomes, Tua, May, Hurtz, Mayfield, Stroud, Young...

 

Watch out for Chase Young.  I'm more worried about Lamar than Thomas? 

 

I do agree that not trying to upgrade at CB2 is a huge mistake though.  Plus, as good as Benford played last year he wasn't quite as good as prime Tre White.  The Bills used to get away with Levi Wallace at outside CB2 because of the safety tandem of Hoyer and Poyd along with Trey White's all pro play opposite him.  We don't have that anymore.  It was painfully obvious down the stretch last year as Douglas struggled and high powered offenses like the Dolphins (2nd match up), Rams, Lions, and ultimately the Chiefs in the playoffs.  Finishing 27th on defense on opponents 3rd down conversion % is just a lack of talent on the D-line and secondary.  If the Bills took a defender with every pick in this draft I'd be fine with it.  What's the glaring weakness on our offense?  A TE3?

[BananaB]

18 hours ago, Simon said:

 

It all makes more sense when you realize that it's coming from the perspective of an utterly miserable human being who absolutely despises the Bills as much as anybody in this forum. 🤷‍♂️

Yeah I’m miserable person because I disagree with people on this board about roster personal.

 

18 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

But my point is your focus is in the wrong spot. If you were upset we haven’t don’t have anything at safety I would get it. Saying we have almost nothing at CB is ignoring that our CB1 is top 10 and our nickel is also top 5.  
 

Also asking for quality starters as backups is not really achievable unless they are on rookie deals (else they would have contracts with other teams).

 

I don’t disagree with your concerns about the pass defense but your point that we have almost nothing at CB is missing the mark.  If anything we are almost bare at safety and pass rush.  

So 19 mil was too much for CB in your opinion?  Would love to hear your list of 10 better CBs. 

We were rated like last in the league on 3rd down defense and you don’t understand my concern.WrS were running open all season.  We watched many average QBs have pretty solid game until we got a up a couple scores. Oddly enough when did Benfords 2 INTs come, when we were up a couple scores. I think he’s a solid player, don’t think he’s top 10. Wouldn’t pay 19 mill on a guy who has never finished playoffs until he actually does. 

Edited yesterday at 10:55 AM by BananaB

[Mister Defense]

5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Watch out for Chase Young.  I'm more worried about Lamar than Thomas? 

 

I do agree that not trying to upgrade at CB2 is a huge mistake though.  Plus, as good as Benford played last year he wasn't quite as good as prime Tre White.  The Bills used to get away with Levi Wallace at outside CB2 because of the safety tandem of Hoyer and Poyd along with Trey White's all pro play opposite him.  We don't have that anymore.  It was painfully obvious down the stretch last year as Douglas struggled and high powered offenses like the Dolphins (2nd match up), Rams, Lions, and ultimately the Chiefs in the playoffs.  Finishing 27th on defense on opponents 3rd down conversion % is just a lack of talent on the D-line and secondary.  If the Bills took a defender with every pick in this draft I'd be fine with it.  What's the glaring weakness on our offense?  A TE3?

 

Thanks--duh, Lamar Jackson, not Thomas! Fixed.

 

I should have included that excellent, telling stat on their awful 3rd down defense in my original post in this thread. It is so unlike the defenses they have had under McDermott, so it sharply highlights the lack of talent.  And yup, both on the defensive line and secondary.

 

I was hoping for more of Philly or KC type defensive overhaul this off season, which then led each to Super Bowl victories. But the Bills seem to be blowing it to some degree so far.

 

And yes, defensive players almost exclusively in the draft, and parlay the 10 picks into much fewer better ones to get the kind of players who could make a bigger impact--soon.

 

And very good point that the high quality safety play made the cornerbacks better (and visa versa?) when they had that with Poyer and Hyde.  Another example of how all the parts work together to create the whole. Bishop's play, rise, will be very important this year for that reason.  Was reminded this week he had an almost perfect score, 9.8?, in his athleticism before the draft, and that really encouraged me.

 

Time to give the defense what it needs on the line and in the backfield.  Or the 'complimentary football' concept falls flat for the Bills now.

 

Edited yesterday at 11:12 AM by Mister Defense

[YattaOkasan]

3 hours ago, BananaB said:

Yeah I’m miserable person because I disagree with people on this board about roster personal.

 

We were rated like last in the league on 3rd down defense and you don’t understand my concern.WrS were running open all season.  We watched many average QBs have pretty solid game until we got a up a couple scores. Oddly enough when did Benfords 2 INTs come, when we were up a couple scores. I think he’s a solid player, don’t think he’s top 10. Wouldn’t pay 19 mill on a guy who has never finished playoffs until he actually does. 

Thanks for confirming.  I agree our pass defense was awful.  I disagree that Benford was a problem or is not worth the contract.  I think the safety room is why we took a step back on pass defense on 3rd and long.  Losing the best safety combo in franchise history will do that to you.  So while I would like better CBs I hardly think they are the problem relative to safety and pass rush. 

 

So no I dont understand your concern around CB relative to the other groups.  If you think Safety was such a good position, you should look at their coverage grades.  If you think we should just have better players everywhere, thats not necessarily realistic as we need to prioritize somewhere and CB was not considered the priority this offseason because the safeties objectively played worse in coverage than 2/3 of the CB group.  

[MarlinTheMagician]

Is there any thought Ingram could compete to start?  I know he is kind of slow, but his teammates have raved publicly about his work ethic and performance in practice (Von and someone else I respected the year before last).  Could he get a shot?

[BananaB]

2 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Thanks for confirming.  I agree our pass defense was awful.  I disagree that Benford was a problem or is not worth the contract.  I think the safety room is why we took a step back on pass defense on 3rd and long.  Losing the best safety combo in franchise history will do that to you.  So while I would like better CBs I hardly think they are the problem relative to safety and pass rush. 

 

So no I dont understand your concern around CB relative to the other groups.  If you think Safety was such a good position, you should look at their coverage grades.  If you think we should just have better players everywhere, thats not necessarily realistic as we need to prioritize somewhere and CB was not considered the priority this offseason because the safeties objectively played worse in coverage than 2/3 of the CB group.  

Our safety play has not looked good since Micah’s injury. Shortly after that Poyer started to decline and Micah was never truly the same when he came back. To blame all our 3rd down troubles on 2 guys is ridiculous. It was safeties, CBs and LBers and the whole group had problem. Bringing back Tre and Dane do nothing to insure confidence in him. Dane was one of the worst 3rd down DBs I have seen and last year Tre went from starting to bench to be shipped out by December.

 

As far as paying Benford, what good is he in January if he’s unavailable during the biggest games? He’s our #1 so it’s more crucial to lose him than anyone else. 

[turbo044]

2 hours ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

Is there any thought Ingram could compete to start?  I know he is kind of slow, but his teammates have raved publicly about his work ethic and performance in practice (Von and someone else I respected the year before last).  Could he get a shot?

Nope - Dane and Tre would start over him.  The CB we take at #30 or #56 will hopefully be ready to start

[Dillenger4]

On 4/21/2025 at 2:39 PM, YattaOkasan said:

Rapp had a coverage grade of 109.  I am not ready to call him above average.  I like his contract but on the field he is pretty average to me at this point.  

That is true - but he hits hard! And I like when he puts the power of evil down on incoming receivers!!!!

[Big Turk]

 

 

It's pretty amazing to hear player after player say how much they loved being here and wanted to come back...

Edited yesterday at 07:24 PM by Big Turk

[Chandler#81]

We’ve GOT to get him a RING!

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

We’ve GOT to get him a RING!

Get us one too…. But yeah, he’s what being a Bill is all about.  Great PC.  Love that guy

 

edit:  now don’t suck!

Edited yesterday at 09:26 PM by NewEra

[YattaOkasan]

19 hours ago, BananaB said:

Our safety play has not looked good since Micah’s injury. Shortly after that Poyer started to decline and Micah was never truly the same when he came back. To blame all our 3rd down troubles on 2 guys is ridiculous. It was safeties, CBs and LBers and the whole group had problem. Bringing back Tre and Dane do nothing to insure confidence in him. Dane was one of the worst 3rd down DBs I have seen and last year Tre went from starting to bench to be shipped out by December.

 

As far as paying Benford, what good is he in January if he’s unavailable during the biggest games? He’s our #1 so it’s more crucial to lose him than anyone else. 

But its not really true to say its the LB's.  Terrel Bernard had a sub 80 rating when targetd and Milano was 85.4 (obviously limited role).  Dorian had a below average coverage grade.  So we can blame him and take the improvement that comes with Milano. 

 

I think I can blame one room though for 3rd and long troubles as the functional role of the safety is downfield coverage (where the offense has to have success for 3rd and longs).  Whereas CBs will have press and short area responsibilities.  So I do think its fair to lay a lot of the 3rd and long woes on safety.  But I understand the whole group logic as 4 of the most targeted players (2 Safeties, 1 LB, 1 CB) had +100 ratings when targeted. 

 

I like Tre but am not expecting much from this move.  But calling the CB room the problem for pass defense is not supported by any data (not sure if youre making this point, or what point your making at all other than neg'ing).  Im ok assuming Milano is an improvement over Williams (has been demonstrated as recently as last year).  Tre at the end of the year (sub 60 rating w/ BAL) was playing better than Douglas though the fear there is that it was in limited reps.  Considering we all expect a high draft investment, I feel ok with the plan there. 

 

Safety is where my concerns remains.  Taylor Rapp was never a plus athlete and his processing isnt as good as hyde/poyer so he gives up plays.  Hopefully Bishop can put it together and that will lock up one of the safety spots.  But opposite him I sort would prefer Forrest.  Considering I'm not expecting a high draft investment (my feelings will change if we get somebody), the safety room is the blinking light for this season.  They didnt play well last year and our only hope for improvement is growth from a rookie and a vet gets better at processing....  

[HappyDays]

 

[ColoradoBills]

51 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

Spotrac says $2.88M cap hit with $2.2M guaranteed.

It's a bit more than I hoped for but not too bad.

Seems they hope that Tre makes the 53 man roster.  

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/player/_/id/21768/tredavious-white

[DJB]

 

[Captain Hindsight]

19 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

It's pretty amazing to hear player after player say how much they loved being here and wanted to come back...

People love to dunk on McDermott, but this interview, from one of the best corners in the NFL prior to his injuries, shows the level of respect that players have for McDermott and the culture that's been built here. 

[Big Turk]

22 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Spotrac says $2.88M cap hit with $2.2M guaranteed.

It's a bit more than I hoped for but not too bad.

Seems they hope that Tre makes the 53 man roster.  

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/player/_/id/21768/tredavious-white

 

It's workable...brings another well respected and loved veteran presence into the locker room at the very least to help the younger guys

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

It's workable...brings another well respected and loved veteran presence into the locker room at the very least to help the younger guys

 

It is.  I was hoping for a little less guarantee just in case he can't hold up during camp and has to be let go.

I know Tre will work hard to get back some of his skills and the extra time further from the injuries may help a lot.

 

I'm not expecting him to be a starter, but he could be good depth and maybe see time at dime.