What Does "Due Process" Mean?

[The Frankish Reich]

Warning: this is a serious topic, intended to initiate a serious discussion.

 

Abrego-Garcia, the guy stuck in the Salvadoran prison. Did he have "due process?"

 

Yes and no.

 

In his deportation proceeding, yes. The core of due process: (1) notice of what the government is trying to do to deprive you of life, liberty, or property. (2) an opportunity to meaningfully respond. (3) a decision made by a neutral official (at a minimum, not the same person/board that initiated the proceeding. Abrego-Garcia was issued a notice to appear before an immigration judge telling him he was subject to deportation because he came into the United States illegally and didn't have permission to stay. That was uncontroversial. He was given the opportunity to apply for protection from removal as provided by U.S. treaty obligations and statutes. He was given a full and fair hearing. The judge found he was subject to deportation, but that he had shown that it is more likely than not that he would be subject to persecution if returned to El Salvador. The Department of Homeland Security serves as the prosecutor, and they may appeal. They didn't. Therefore, the final order - considered an order of the Attorney General acting through his designated officials - was that he could not be removed to El Salvador.

 

He was removed to El Salvador.

 

I'm not sure whether he was removed under the Alien Enemies Act. It seems like he was, since he couldn't be removed to El Salvador under the Immigration Judge's order. Was he given "due process?" No. He could have been informed that he was being shipped back to El Salvador, in which he would have objected that the judge's order prohibits that. He would've been right. Even under the Alien Enemies Act (I can't tell if it was invoked here), the Supreme Court said 9-0 that you get some kind of process. Maybe it's a quick/easy process in which you can say "you've got the wrong guy, I'm not Abrego-Garcia." Or "I am Abrego-Garcia, but you are subject to a valid order precluding you from sending me to El Salvador." Or "I am Abrego-Garcia, but I don't fit under the Alien Enemies Act because I am not, and have never been, a member of a gang." We'd have to see how involved the hearing would get; that's usually set by published rules. And then some neutral official would have to say "I ratify the removal" or "I find that you can't remove him under that charge." That's it.

 

The Trump Administration violated the law. It is making no efforts to undo it's error.

So this is outrageous, ridiculous, and dangerous to the rule of law (not "democracy;" something more basic, the rule of law). Period.

 

 

[Trump_is_Mentally_fit]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Warning: this is a serious topic, intended to initiate a serious discussion.

 

Abrego-Garcia, the guy stuck in the Salvadoran prison. Did he have "due process?"

 

Yes and no.

 

In his deportation proceeding, yes. The core of due process: (1) notice of what the government is trying to do to deprive you of life, liberty, or property. (2) an opportunity to meaningfully respond. (3) a decision made by a neutral official (at a minimum, not the same person/board that initiated the proceeding. Abrego-Garcia was issued a notice to appear before an immigration judge telling him he was subject to deportation because he came into the United States illegally and didn't have permission to stay. That was uncontroversial. He was given the opportunity to apply for protection from removal as provided by U.S. treaty obligations and statutes. He was given a full and fair hearing. The judge found he was subject to deportation, but that he had shown that it is more likely than not that he would be subject to persecution if returned to El Salvador. The Department of Homeland Security serves as the prosecutor, and they may appeal. They didn't. Therefore, the final order - considered an order of the Attorney General acting through his designated officials - was that he could not be removed to El Salvador.

 

He was removed to El Salvador.

 

I'm not sure whether he was removed under the Alien Enemies Act. It seems like he was, since he couldn't be removed to El Salvador under the Immigration Judge's order. Was he given "due process?" No. He could have been informed that he was being shipped back to El Salvador, in which he would have objected that the judge's order prohibits that. He would've been right. Even under the Alien Enemies Act (I can't tell if it was invoked here), the Supreme Court said 9-0 that you get some kind of process. Maybe it's a quick/easy process in which you can say "you've got the wrong guy, I'm not Abrego-Garcia." Or "I am Abrego-Garcia, but you are subject to a valid order precluding you from sending me to El Salvador." Or "I am Abrego-Garcia, but I don't fit under the Alien Enemies Act because I am not, and have never been, a member of a gang." We'd have to see how involved the hearing would get; that's usually set by published rules. And then some neutral official would have to say "I ratify the removal" or "I find that you can't remove him under that charge." That's it.

 

The Trump Administration violated the law. It is making no efforts to undo it's error.

So this is outrageous, ridiculous, and dangerous to the rule of law (not "democracy;" something more basic, the rule of law). Period.

 

 

It's a trial balloon. Trump even said he wants to send US citizens there, too. Slow walking towards a dictatorship 

 

Quote

 

. Trump casually told Bukele he may need to build more supermax jails for “homegrown” deportees, which means US citizens.

If Trump deems that you are a gang member, pro-terrorist, or simply anti-national, he claims impunity over your liberty. The fact that one deportee was a hairdresser, not a gang member, and another target was an innocuous op-ed writing student, not a terrorist, is no protection.

 

https://www.afr.com/world/north-america/trump-is-halfway-to-making-america-a-police-state-20250416-p5ls3e

[nedboy7]

I think we don’t understand this topic as well as the party of law and order. 

[Andy1]

This is a power play by Trump. He wants to make the court subservient to him. At worst, they will give him a sternly worded letter which he will ignore. The concept of coequal branches of government does not befit a criminal king. 

[Big Blitz]

He’s a unique case only because of the “they’ll kill me if I’m sent to El Salvador” protection (allegedly) per the 2019 court decision regarding his immigration status.   
 

The danger of putting him before the courts over this is if the courts decide all 20 million illegals have the right to due process.  Which is what they want to argue this guy has a right to along with all the others.  They don’t.  Biden gave blanket protections to all of them per EO.  But Trump can’t undo that?  Make that make sense.  
 

He was on that plane out bc of a bureaucratic paperwork issue.  He could have been on it - and had he been deported to Peru there is no issue - and El Salvador doesn’t need to release him.   
 

 

So let’s bring him back for what would be a 10 minute “ok thanks for checking in, bye now” hearing bc President District Court is fighting the oligarchy.  Or something.  
 

[The Frankish Reich]

14 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

He’s a unique case only because of the “they’ll kill me if I’m sent to El Salvador” protection (allegedly) per the 2019 court decision regarding his immigration status.   
 

The danger of putting him before the courts over this is if the courts decide all 20 million illegals have the right to due process.  Which is what they want to argue this guy has a right to along with all the others.  They don’t.  Biden gave blanket protections to all of them per EO.  But Trump can’t undo that?  Make that make sense.  
 

He was on that plane out bc of a bureaucratic paperwork issue.  He could have been on it - and had he been deported to Peru there is no issue - and El Salvador doesn’t need to release him.   
 

 

So let’s bring him back for what would be a 10 minute “ok thanks for checking in, bye now” hearing bc President District Court is fighting the oligarchy.  Or something.  
 

The danger in NOT putting him back before the courts is that a court issues a blanket order since they can't trust Trump to comply with any future orders in individual cases.

He is doing this for people like you, his base, to make a show that his is fighting your version of the oligarchy: the "deep state."

[Albwan]

The op should move to El Salvador...America is such a scary place!

[njbuff]

First off, he entered this country ILLEGALLY, which means he doesn’t deserve any rights whatsoever.

 

If I entered Japan illegally, so I deserve Japanese rights? NOOOOOO

 

Common mother trucking sense.

[mjt328]

4 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Warning: this is a serious topic, intended to initiate a serious discussion.

 

Abrego-Garcia, the guy stuck in the Salvadoran prison. Did he have "due process?"

 

Yes and no.

 

In his deportation proceeding, yes. The core of due process: (1) notice of what the government is trying to do to deprive you of life, liberty, or property. (2) an opportunity to meaningfully respond. (3) a decision made by a neutral official (at a minimum, not the same person/board that initiated the proceeding. Abrego-Garcia was issued a notice to appear before an immigration judge telling him he was subject to deportation because he came into the United States illegally and didn't have permission to stay. That was uncontroversial. He was given the opportunity to apply for protection from removal as provided by U.S. treaty obligations and statutes. He was given a full and fair hearing. The judge found he was subject to deportation, but that he had shown that it is more likely than not that he would be subject to persecution if returned to El Salvador. The Department of Homeland Security serves as the prosecutor, and they may appeal. They didn't. Therefore, the final order - considered an order of the Attorney General acting through his designated officials - was that he could not be removed to El Salvador.

 

He was removed to El Salvador.

 

I'm not sure whether he was removed under the Alien Enemies Act. It seems like he was, since he couldn't be removed to El Salvador under the Immigration Judge's order. Was he given "due process?" No. He could have been informed that he was being shipped back to El Salvador, in which he would have objected that the judge's order prohibits that. He would've been right. Even under the Alien Enemies Act (I can't tell if it was invoked here), the Supreme Court said 9-0 that you get some kind of process. Maybe it's a quick/easy process in which you can say "you've got the wrong guy, I'm not Abrego-Garcia." Or "I am Abrego-Garcia, but you are subject to a valid order precluding you from sending me to El Salvador." Or "I am Abrego-Garcia, but I don't fit under the Alien Enemies Act because I am not, and have never been, a member of a gang." We'd have to see how involved the hearing would get; that's usually set by published rules. And then some neutral official would have to say "I ratify the removal" or "I find that you can't remove him under that charge." That's it.

 

The Trump Administration violated the law. It is making no efforts to undo it's error.

So this is outrageous, ridiculous, and dangerous to the rule of law (not "democracy;" something more basic, the rule of law). Period.

 

The outrage over trying to get this guy back in the United States is what is ridiculous.  But to be fair, this case does raise a lot of interesting questions about presidential/judicial authority and jurisdiction, and how the Constitution applies to non-citizens.

 

For starters, there had already been a deportation order to remove Garcia from the country.  The administration's supposed error was that (according to the district judge) he wasn't supposed to be removed to El Salvador, because he supposedly feared for his life from this rival gang.  If they had dropped him off somewhere else, there wouldn't have been a problem.  To be very clear... He came here illegally.  He had a hearing before an immigration judge, who concluded he was a member of the MS-13 gang.  

 

Historically speaking, the Alien Enemies Act has allowed the President to remove illegal immigrants for any reason.  Gang member or not.  No due process at all.  Under that precedent, this would have made the district judge's ruling null and void, allowing Garcia to be deported to El Salvador anyway.  So to say that Trump was breaking the law (as it was interpreted at the time) is simply untrue.  

 

The problem with the Supreme Court ruling on the AEA (which didn't come until last week) is that Garcia is now in an El Salvador prison.  And he is a citizen of that country, not the United States.  Our government can't just force El Salvador to send us back one of their citizens, because of a court ruling that took place after the fact.  No matter how the SC words their ruling, you can't just "undo the error" as you stated.  And even if El Salvador decided to return him to the U.S., the Trump administration can simply hold a quick hearing before an immigration judge (as now ordered by the SC) and deport him again.

 

Going forward, I'm curious how the Supreme Court ruling is going to play out.  What entails a quick process hearing?  Even spending 10-15 minutes per individual would backup the system and make it virtually impossible for the mass deportations needed to clean-up this mess.  The current system is totally broken (as evidenced that Garcia was residing in our country 5-6 years without being sent somewhere). 

 

27 minutes ago, njbuff said:

First off, he entered this country ILLEGALLY, which means he doesn’t deserve any rights whatsoever.

 

If I entered Japan illegally, so I deserve Japanese rights? NOOOOOO

 

Common mother trucking sense.

 

I agree with this.

Unfortunately, the Supreme Court felt differently and believes they deserve some level of due process.

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

6 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Warning: this is a serious topic, intended to initiate a serious discussion.

 

Abrego-Garcia, the guy stuck in the Salvadoran prison. Did he have "due process?"

 

Yes and no.

 

In his deportation proceeding, yes. The core of due process: (1) notice of what the government is trying to do to deprive you of life, liberty, or property. (2) an opportunity to meaningfully respond. (3) a decision made by a neutral official (at a minimum, not the same person/board that initiated the proceeding. Abrego-Garcia was issued a notice to appear before an immigration judge telling him he was subject to deportation because he came into the United States illegally and didn't have permission to stay. That was uncontroversial. He was given the opportunity to apply for protection from removal as provided by U.S. treaty obligations and statutes. He was given a full and fair hearing. The judge found he was subject to deportation, but that he had shown that it is more likely than not that he would be subject to persecution if returned to El Salvador. The Department of Homeland Security serves as the prosecutor, and they may appeal. They didn't. Therefore, the final order - considered an order of the Attorney General acting through his designated officials - was that he could not be removed to El Salvador.

 

He was removed to El Salvador.

 

I'm not sure whether he was removed under the Alien Enemies Act. It seems like he was, since he couldn't be removed to El Salvador under the Immigration Judge's order. Was he given "due process?" No. He could have been informed that he was being shipped back to El Salvador, in which he would have objected that the judge's order prohibits that. He would've been right. Even under the Alien Enemies Act (I can't tell if it was invoked here), the Supreme Court said 9-0 that you get some kind of process. Maybe it's a quick/easy process in which you can say "you've got the wrong guy, I'm not Abrego-Garcia." Or "I am Abrego-Garcia, but you are subject to a valid order precluding you from sending me to El Salvador." Or "I am Abrego-Garcia, but I don't fit under the Alien Enemies Act because I am not, and have never been, a member of a gang." We'd have to see how involved the hearing would get; that's usually set by published rules. And then some neutral official would have to say "I ratify the removal" or "I find that you can't remove him under that charge." That's it.

 

The Trump Administration violated the law. It is making no efforts to undo it's error.

So this is outrageous, ridiculous, and dangerous to the rule of law (not "democracy;" something more basic, the rule of law). Period.

Thank you for writing this up.
 

The Trump admin should work to bring him back to the extent possible.  Upon his return, probably a good time to revisit how this long clusterf*ck of a process was able to occur.    Seems to me we have a system that can be gamed to benefit gang members, or a system that sets up innocent people to be treated harshly by suggesting they are gang members.  Either way, it’s a clusterf*ck. 

 

 

[Big Blitz]

3 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

The danger in NOT putting him back before the courts is that a court issues a blanket order since they can't trust Trump to comply with any future orders in individual cases.

He

 

What????

[Big Blitz]

 

I've acknowledged it looks like he could be subject to some sort of hearing before deportation - the results of which are no slam dunk and could set precedent for other illegals.  
 

I would like every commie MS-13 sympathizer here to acknowledge how the media initially portrayed this case was deliberately a lie - lacking all sorts of context because TDS

 

 

 

[Roundybout]

7 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

I've acknowledged it looks like he could be subject to some sort of hearing before deportation - the results of which are no slam dunk and could set precedent for other illegals.  
 

I would like every commie MS-13 sympathizer here to acknowledge how the media initially portrayed this case was deliberately a lie - lacking all sorts of context because TDS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You lose. 

[Wacka]

That congressman tried to self deport but was not successful.😀

I love that the El Salvadoran VP told him that he would have to get the Administration's OK to visit the prison to talk to the MS-13 member.

Edited Wednesday at 11:40 PM by Wacka

[Big Blitz]

3 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

 

 

 

 

 

You lose. 

 

You sure you want to die on this hill.  

 

 

 

 

[Roundybout]

4 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

You sure you want to die on this hill.  

 

 

 

 

How do you know he was MS-13 if it wasn’t proven in court? 
 

If I said you were a member of ISIS, should you just be shipped off to the gulag? 
 

 

No evidence. You sent an innocent man to a death camp. 
 

 

Edited Wednesday at 11:47 PM by Roundybout

[Big Blitz]

4 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

How do you know he was MS-13 if it wasn’t proven in court? 
 

If I said you were a member of ISIS, should you just be shipped off to the gulag? 
 

 

No evidence. You sent an innocent man to a death camp. 

 

An immigration judge deemed him likely MS-13

 

You're not a citizen.  
 

Gone.  Deported.  Done.  You had your chance.  
 

Hope is wife is ok needing a restraining order and all.   
 

 

 

What’s that say about a gang in the top left - one now designated a terrorist organization?

 

 

 

Buh bye innocent man.  

Edited Wednesday at 11:50 PM by Big Blitz

[Big Blitz]

 

Also, why is he scared he‘ll be killed if he goes back to El Salvador?

 

Thats your smoking gun.  

[Roundybout]

1 minute ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Also, why is he scared he‘ll be killed if he goes back to El Salvador?

 

Thats your smoking gun.  

 

Gee, maybe it's because the prison he was sent to has a 0% rate of people getting out?

 

He was not illegal. He had withholding of removal status, granted by a U.S. immigration judge in 2019, after the judge ruled that deporting him to El Salvador could violate international law due to the real risk of persecution. He also very likely had a pending green card application through his U.S. citizen wife, and was legally residing and working in Maryland at the time of his removal. This was not a gray area. He had a lawful right to be in the U.S., and deporting him violated a standing federal order.

 

You and the rest of the MAGAs are going to face consequences for supporting this. Not sure if it's in this life or the next, but your actions have gone beyond vindictive to straight-up evil. 

[Big Blitz]

4 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

 

Gee, maybe it's because the prison he was sent to has a 0% rate of people getting out?

 

He was not illegal. He had withholding of removal status, granted by a U.S. immigration judge in 2019, after the judge ruled that deporting him to El Salvador could violate international law due to the real risk of persecution. He also very likely had a pending green card application through his U.S. citizen wife, and was legally residing and working in Maryland at the time of his removal. This was not a gray area. He had a lawful right to be in the U.S., and deporting him violated a standing federal order.

 

You and the rest of the MAGAs are going to face consequences for supporting this. Not sure if it's in this life or the next, but your actions have gone beyond vindictive to straight-up evil. 

 

We didn’t sit down when the Laken Riley Act was referenced at Trumps joint address.  
 

Full blown TDS.  

 

 

 

Yes I do.