Which past receiver would you pick whose skill set this team needs most.

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

you are a regular here--this place constantly woofs on KC as a place for miscreants, criminals and addicts--yet this "culture" (presumably the opposite of the Bills) only produces AFCC and SBs.

 

Are you saying that ANY culture (lawless or straight laced) is all that matters? That doesn't seem to make sense, but if true, wouldn't the Bills be better off adapting a "bad boy"/criminals in the off-season culture such as in KC?  The one the Bills put forth seems to get axed by the Chiefs culture every year when it counts...

 

KC certainly has had more than its share of football miscreants.  But character and culture are two different things.  Let's talk about both...

 

Marv used to talk about "football character" instead of generic character.  For Marv, football players didn't need to be choir boys off the field but on the field they needed to execute, play together, and fight for each other.  I think Reid probably sees things the same way.  

 

Culture is the collective values, beliefs, and behaviors of a group.  If a coward like me joined Delta of SEAL Team Six, pretty soon I'd be willing to risk my life to help my buddies because the culture of the group would become part of me.  Football culture is all about group effort, execution, accountability, coachability (growth mindset), attention to detail, etc.  

 

Beane & McD pretty much sign only guys who support and strengthen the culture.  Reid is willing to take calculated risks on certain guys who have shortcomings but might flourish in the strong winning culture he's established.  And sometimes (e.g. Kareem Hunt) it doesn't work out.

 

I don't know if going after 'bad boys' in free agency or the draft would help the Bills overcome the Chiefs.  Bad boys don't just damage the benefits of a good team culture, they also tend to do things like not learn the playbook, get suspended, get arrested, and otherwise not add value equal to the level of their physical gifts.  

 

 

 

 

[HOUSE]

I get me some Beasley 

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

KC certainly has had more than its share of football miscreants.  But character and culture are two different things.  Let's talk about both...

 

Marv used to talk about "football character" instead of generic character.  For Marv, football players didn't need to be choir boys off the field but on the field they needed to execute, play together, and fight for each other.  I think Reid probably sees things the same way.  

 

Culture is the collective values, beliefs, and behaviors of a group.  If a coward like me joined Delta of SEAL Team Six, pretty soon I'd be willing to risk my life to help my buddies because the culture of the group would become part of me.  Football culture is all about group effort, execution, accountability, coachability (growth mindset), attention to detail, etc.  

 

Beane & McD pretty much sign only guys who support and strengthen the culture.  Reid is willing to take calculated risks on certain guys who have shortcomings but might flourish in the strong winning culture he's established.  And sometimes (e.g. Kareem Hunt) it doesn't work out.

 

I don't know if going after 'bad boys' in free agency or the draft would help the Bills overcome the Chiefs.  Bad boys don't just damage the benefits of a good team culture, they also tend to do things like not learn the playbook, get suspended, get arrested, and otherwise not add value equal to the level of their physical gifts.  

 

 

 

 

 

there's no relevance to comparing special forces servicemen and pro teams.  you would best move off that, nothing there for you.

 

The Cowboys in the 90's were full of "bad boys", but they mopped the floor with hapless Uncle Marv's "fighting for each other" (at bars, before the SB)--there's a lot of irony there.

 

your argument has 2 logical conclusions:  1) the Bills would do better to emulate the Chiefs and bring in more miscreants off the field, who execute on the field "A culture of bad character") 2) Reid is orders of magnitude better at coaching an NFL team than McD

[oldmanfan]

18 hours ago, JP51 said:

Not gonna lie, I was actually surprised that there wasnt more debate over Reed. 

Reed to me established the slot receiver position in the NFL.  My thought was having a guy who lined up outside and represented more of a deep threat.  Jerry Butler would be perfect for that.   Duby would fit that as well.  Moulds too.

Edited Thursday at 10:50 AM by oldmanfan

[CSBill]

11 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Reed to me established the slot receiver position in the NFL.  My thought was having a guy who lined up outside and represented more of a deep threat.  Jerry Butler would be perfect for that.   Duby would fit that as well.  Mounds too.

 

If not Reed (HOF'er), how about another HOF'er: James Lofton? 

 

"Lofton terrorized opponents not only with speed and quick hands but also with sheer intelligence; he was noted as a player with an encyclopedic understanding of football."

 

"Widely regarded as one of the greatest wide receivers of all time, Lofton retired with the most receiving yards in NFL history." 1

 

Speed, Great Hands, Intelligence!

 

The thread can be closed now.

[oldmanfan]

35 minutes ago, CSBill said:

 

If not Reed (HOF'er), how about another HOF'er: James Lofton? 

 

"Lofton terrorized opponents not only with speed and quick hands but also with sheer intelligence; he was noted as a player with an encyclopedic understanding of football."

 

"Widely regarded as one of the greatest wide receivers of all time, Lofton retired with the most receiving yards in NFL history." 1

 

Speed, Great Hands, Intelligence!

 

The thread can be closed now.

I’d take Lofton in his Packer years.  He was a little older with us.  One of the problems with these kinds of questions is that there are so many folks here who haven’t seen the guys from years ago.  Those who saw Jerry Butler play would understand why I’d pick him.

[JP51]

14 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Reed to me established the slot receiver position in the NFL.  My thought was having a guy who lined up outside and represented more of a deep threat.  Jerry Butler would be perfect for that.   Duby would fit that as well.  Moulds too.

Agreed, Reed wasnt the deep threat at all that was really Lofton and Beebe... but he had an uncanny first move after a reception... he was an RAC guy for sure..  

Edited Thursday at 01:32 PM by JP51

[JP51]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I’d take Lofton in his Packer years.  He was a little older with us.  One of the problems with these kinds of questions is that there are so many folks here who haven’t seen the guys from years ago.  Those who saw Jerry Butler play would understand why I’d pick him.

and not gonna lie, I confused this by thinking about their Bills career only... so it is a convoluted question in that regard as well...  but it has definately sparked some interesting debate...  especially on the TO side... only looking at his Bills career probably not making it... but if you look at Lofton and TO thru their entirety they were absolute cream of the crop...  but alas... I messed that up... but still fun discussion pre draft/Mini Camp etc... 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, JP51 said:

and not gonna lie, I confused this by thinking about their Bills career only... so it is a convoluted question in that regard as well...  but it has definately sparked some interesting debate...  especially on the TO side... only looking at his Bills career probably not making it... but if you look at Lofton and TO thru their entirety they were absolute cream of the crop...  but alas... I messed that up... but still fun discussion pre draft/Mini Camp etc... 

Excellent topic!

[hondo in seattle]

17 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

there's no relevance to comparing special forces servicemen and pro teams.  you would best move off that, nothing there for you.

 

The Cowboys in the 90's were full of "bad boys", but they mopped the floor with hapless Uncle Marv's "fighting for each other" (at bars, before the SB)--there's a lot of irony there.

 

your argument has 2 logical conclusions:  1) the Bills would do better to emulate the Chiefs and bring in more miscreants off the field, who execute on the field "A culture of bad character") 2) Reid is orders of magnitude better at coaching an NFL team than McD

 

A number of studies have shown the benefits of a good culture in business, the military, and other organizations.  While I don't think there have been any cultural studies performed on sports teams, lots of successful coaches talk about it.  And it's unfathomable to me that culture benefits teams in other spheres but not in football.  You may not believe this but Super Bowl coaches do:

 

Tony Dungy:  "Success is built on more than Xs and Os... [You need to] cultivate a culture of discipline and accountability, but also mutual respect and support."  

Bill Wash: "Champions behave like champions before they're champions; they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners...  The culture precedes positive results." 

 

Bill Belichick: "Do your job... Accountability creates a culture of improvement."  

 

Bill Cowher: "Hard work always beats talent when talent doesn't work hard... Culture really is about commitment and sacrifice. You're not just playing with one another, you're playing for one another."

 

John Harbaugh:  "Guys with blood, sweat, and dust on their faces will decide games...  Culture-building is about establishing a world view for your team."

 

Tom Coughlin:  "The greatest teams are built on trust, accountability, and communication. Establish priorities that create an overall culture governing everything."

Mr. Weo:  "This culture stuff is BS."

 

Weo, you're a good poster who's offered up some great insights over the years, but this wasn't one of your finer contributions.  Culture matters.  And so do schemes, game plans, talent, luck, refereeing, conditioning, weather, etc."  There are a number of variables.  A good team excels at the variables they control and hopes for the best with the variables they don't.  

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

32 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

A number of studies have shown the benefits of a good culture in business, the military, and other organizations.  While I don't think there have been any cultural studies performed on sports teams, lots of successful coaches talk about it.  And it's unfathomable to me that culture benefits teams in other spheres but not in football.  You may not believe this but Super Bowl coaches do:

 

Tony Dungy:  "Success is built on more than Xs and Os... [You need to] cultivate a culture of discipline and accountability, but also mutual respect and support."  

Bill Wash: "Champions behave like champions before they're champions; they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners...  The culture precedes positive results." 

 

Bill Belichick: "Do your job... Accountability creates a culture of improvement."  

 

Bill Cowher: "Hard work always beats talent when talent doesn't work hard... Culture really is about commitment and sacrifice. You're not just playing with one another, you're playing for one another."

 

John Harbaugh:  "Guys with blood, sweat, and dust on their faces will decide games...  Culture-building is about establishing a world view for your team."

 

Tom Coughlin:  "The greatest teams are built on trust, accountability, and communication. Establish priorities that create an overall culture governing everything."

Mr. Weo:  "This culture stuff is BS."

 

Weo, you're a good poster who's offered up some great insights over the years, but this wasn't one of your finer contributions.  Culture matters.  And so do schemes, game plans, talent, luck, refereeing, conditioning, weather, etc."  There are a number of variables.  A good team excels at the variables they control and hopes for the best with the variables they don't.  

 

 

 

I think quoting a lot of coaching clichés isn't a strong argument.  What HC hasn't said these things?

 

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions'?  Ok, sure.  You and I both agree the Bills behave like champions and are winners--but they have no championships despite all this culture of winning.

 

I'll agree Belichick at least expected a culture of winning, but that evaporated once Brady left (Brady immediately imported his "culture" to a SB win for a team coached by Arians, of all people).

 

Back in 2016, Foxsports said this: "Hue Jackson has changed the culture. The Cleveland Browns may not be winning games in 2016, but there is a different atmosphere in town now that Hue Jackson is the head coach."  Cleveland.com: "Will the Browns put more emphasis on character in the draft under Jackson? We'll see."  

"In a national radio appearance not long after accepting the Browns job, Jackson told us why he thought the latest new regime change in Berea could make the difference when others failed so spectacularly. "Hue Jackson's in town, baby," the head coach said.

 

Jackson was the worst HC in NFL history

 

Cowher handed Tomlin the Steeler's "winning culture.  Tomlin has pretended it is his own since.  The result has been, since a SB win 17 years ago and loss 15 years ago, a team that never won another playoff game--and now it's to the point where, with the way Tomlin has mangled the QB room for the past few years, he's essentially daring Rooney to fire him.  What's the culture over there?

 

Despite Tom Coughlin's "culture of winning" (2 SBs), he was fired by the Giants (obviously he did not retire) after it somehow became a culture of losing 3 seasons in a row.  He brought his culture of trust, accountability and communication to the Jags--where he was canned by the owner specifically because, according to the NFLPA, the players on that team had filed 25% of the player grievances the union received that year.  "Trust"?? The NFLPA actually warned free agents against  signing with the Jags due to "Coughlin's reported disregard for players rights"---oops, culture!!

 

Harbaugh certainly tolerated and helped deify a total POS like Ray Lewis and, despite rostering a 2 time NFL MVP and racking up a ton of, his team hasn't won an AFCC game since 2012.  

 

Dungy was another regular season winner---yet I can't think of a single HC who squandered more elite talent on both sides of the ball.  In 7 seasons, his teams amassed a playoff record of 7-6.  They beat Rex Grossman for a SB.  The Manning-Dungy combo in 7 seasons had an astounding 4 one and done playoff exits.  2 years after the "Dungy era", AI human Jim Caldwell "guided" the Colts back to the SB (a loss).  What exactly was Dungy's "culture?  H did like to give the starters a rest before the playoffs started (how did that often work out?).

 

Then there's this: 

and this:https://www.newyorkjets.com/news/for-joe-douglas-and-robert-saleh-character-and-culture-will-lead-to-wins

 

"I feel like we really attacked the character side of the game in our locker room, when you look at D.J. Reed and Whitehead and C.J. and Conklin and Laken," Saleh said. "They bring an edge, they're bringing professionalism, they're bringing a winning pedigree to the locker room. They've all been in championship games, they've all been with winning organizations, so it's really exciting to get those guys here."

 

It's  about the talent on the roster and the genius of the coaches.  The rest are bromides and platitudes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FormerLV-BILLS]

Watching Moulds with Josh Allen would be unreal.

[hondo in seattle]

23 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I think quoting a lot of coaching clichés isn't a strong argument.  What HC hasn't said these things?

 

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions'?  Ok, sure.  You and I both agree the Bills behave like champions and are winners--but they have no championships despite all this culture of winning.

 

I'll agree Belichick at least expected a culture of winning, but that evaporated once Brady left (Brady immediately imported his "culture" to a SB win for a team coached by Arians, of all people).

 

Back in 2016, Foxsports said this: "Hue Jackson has changed the culture. The Cleveland Browns may not be winning games in 2016, but there is a different atmosphere in town now that Hue Jackson is the head coach."  Cleveland.com: "Will the Browns put more emphasis on character in the draft under Jackson? We'll see."  

"In a national radio appearance not long after accepting the Browns job, Jackson told us why he thought the latest new regime change in Berea could make the difference when others failed so spectacularly. "Hue Jackson's in town, baby," the head coach said.

 

Jackson was the worst HC in NFL history

 

Cowher handed Tomlin the Steeler's "winning culture.  Tomlin has pretended it is his own since.  The result has been, since a SB win 17 years ago and loss 15 years ago, a team that never won another playoff game--and now it's to the point where, with the way Tomlin has mangled the QB room for the past few years, he's essentially daring Rooney to fire him.  What's the culture over there?

 

Despite Tom Coughlin's "culture of winning" (2 SBs), he was fired by the Giants (obviously he did not retire) after it somehow became a culture of losing 3 seasons in a row.  He brought his culture of trust, accountability and communication to the Jags--where he was canned by the owner specifically because, according to the NFLPA, the players on that team had filed 25% of the player grievances the union received that year.  "Trust"?? The NFLPA actually warned free agents against  signing with the Jags due to "Coughlin's reported disregard for players rights"---oops, culture!!

 

Harbaugh certainly tolerated and helped deify a total POS like Ray Lewis and, despite rostering a 2 time NFL MVP and racking up a ton of, his team hasn't won an AFCC game since 2012.  

 

Dungy was another regular season winner---yet I can't think of a single HC who squandered more elite talent on both sides of the ball.  In 7 seasons, his teams amassed a playoff record of 7-6.  They beat Rex Grossman for a SB.  The Manning-Dungy combo in 7 seasons had an astounding 4 one and done playoff exits.  2 years after the "Dungy era", AI human Jim Caldwell "guided" the Colts back to the SB (a loss).  What exactly was Dungy's "culture?  H did like to give the starters a rest before the playoffs started (how did that often work out?).

 

Then there's this: 

and this:https://www.newyorkjets.com/news/for-joe-douglas-and-robert-saleh-character-and-culture-will-lead-to-wins

 

"I feel like we really attacked the character side of the game in our locker room, when you look at D.J. Reed and Whitehead and C.J. and Conklin and Laken," Saleh said. "They bring an edge, they're bringing professionalism, they're bringing a winning pedigree to the locker room. They've all been in championship games, they've all been with winning organizations, so it's really exciting to get those guys here."

 

It's  about the talent on the roster and the genius of the coaches.  The rest are bromides and platitudes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think we're just going to agree to disagree but let me close out with a story.

When I was a platoon leader in the army, my bar-hopping soldiers got into a fight.  One of my guys had been jumped and we got revenge.  I was somewhat involved.  My battalion commander informally but sternly reprimanded me at the O Club one evening after duty when he found out.

 

After the reprimand, he leaned toward me and spoke in a hushed, conspiratorial tone, "Tell me, these other soldiers - were they my soldiers or from the other tank battalion."

 

"They were from the 1st tank, sir."    

 

"Good.  One more question, did our guys win the brawl?"

 

"Sir, we kicked their (freaking) (butts)."

 

"Excellent!!!" He slammed his fist into the table with enthusiasm and launched into a long & passionate "off the books" monologue about how the army was getting soft and war is a violent profession and if we expect soldiers to win battles, we need men with warrior spirit who love to scrap.  

 

Did that mean he didn't care about character or culture?  Just the opposite.  He wanted fighters (character) and a battalion imbued with warrior spirit (culture).  He also liked that in my platoon we stuck up for each other (culture).  Choir, character, and culture are all different things.  You can have a winning culture with drinkers and brawlers on the team. 

 

When you're hired to coach a team, run it your way.  Like Walsh, I'll start by building a winning culture.  

 

[Mr. WEO]

17 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I think we're just going to agree to disagree but let me close out with a story.

When I was a platoon leader in the army, my bar-hopping soldiers got into a fight.  One of my guys had been jumped and we got revenge.  I was somewhat involved.  My battalion commander informally but sternly reprimanded me at the O Club one evening after duty when he found out.

 

After the reprimand, he leaned toward me and spoke in a hushed, conspiratorial tone, "Tell me, these other soldiers - were they my soldiers or from the other tank battalion."

 

"They were from the 1st tank, sir."    

 

"Good.  One more question, did our guys win the brawl?"

 

"Sir, we kicked their (freaking) (butts)."

 

"Excellent!!!" He slammed his fist into the table with enthusiasm and launched into a long & passionate "off the books" monologue about how the army was getting soft and war is a violent profession and if we expect soldiers to win battles, we need men with warrior spirit who love to scrap.  

 

Did that mean he didn't care about character or culture?  Just the opposite.  He wanted fighters (character) and a battalion imbued with warrior spirit (culture).  He also liked that in my platoon we stuck up for each other (culture).  Choir, character, and culture are all different things.  You can have a winning culture with drinkers and brawlers on the team. 

 

When you're hired to coach a team, run it your way.  Like Walsh, I'll start by building a winning culture.  

 

 

 

Well...the Bills have won 74 games in the past 6 seasons, 5 AFCE titles in a row---is that not "a winning culture"?  yet they cannot beat the Chiefs in the playoffs--getting bounced 4 of the past 5 years. 

 

in the past 7 seasons, the Chiefs have won 90 games, 7 Divisions, played in 7 AFCC games, won 5 of them and 3 SBs--a culture of winning for sure.   

 

Two teams with "winning cultures"...with vastly different results.  So how is establishing a winning culture meaningful?  Why can't the Bills beat the Chiefs when it matters if the Bills culture is so solid?

 

Steelers, Ravens, 49ers---all teams with a culture of winning...but so what?  Where are the championships?  Why there only 1 dominant winning culture int eh NFL for years running?  It's simple.  It's a rare combination of an elite HC and QB.  We saw it for years in NE. Swap out Reid for McD and the Bills would have at least 2 parades on the news the past few years.

 

"Beane & McD pretty much sign only guys who support and strengthen the culture.  Bad boys don't just damage the benefits of a good team culture, they also tend to do things like not learn the playbook, get suspended, get arrested, and otherwise not add value equal to the level of their physical gifts."

 

Von Miller was arrested and suspended.  Then Beane signed 2 FAs who were immediately suspended for PEDs--one of which he knew about and signed anyway.  He did that without regard to some made up "culture"--he did it because he figured the team could use them.

 

Lot of posters he salve the annual elimination to the Chiefs by mocking their players' character.  It's all just sour grapes.

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

Moulds with a QB like Allen would be a thing of beauty.

[Captain Hindsight]

Any poll not including Isiah Hodgins is a joke.

[Figster]

On 4/17/2025 at 6:12 AM, CSBill said:

 

If not Reed (HOF'er), how about another HOF'er: James Lofton? 

 

"Lofton terrorized opponents not only with speed and quick hands but also with sheer intelligence; he was noted as a player with an encyclopedic understanding of football."

 

"Widely regarded as one of the greatest wide receivers of all time, Lofton retired with the most receiving yards in NFL history." 1

 

Speed, Great Hands, Intelligence!

 

The thread can be closed now.

yes,  on this note,

 

close it...

[Sierra Foothills]

On 4/14/2025 at 12:04 PM, JP51 said:

This is a legit point someone else asked it...  I was basing it on Bills production but to your point TO may have been the best of the all... not sure how the attitude would have blended into this team... but on pure talent this guy in his prime was one of the all time best.  Moses and Rashad were a nod/option to the old timers that watched them play.  I have only faint memories of Rashad and none of Moses or Dubenion for that matter.

 

If we're throwing out names from the past, I don't think he's been mentioned yet (and I never saw him play) but Glenn Bass had an excellent career with the Bills and was a deep threat. In 45 starts wih the Bills he averaged 17.3 yards per catch and had 16 touchdowns.

 

On 4/14/2025 at 1:15 PM, T master said:

I remember Jerry Butler tearing it up and then the knee - he was gone no more football . Given what he was doing at the time in the league and if he could keep it going what might have been something nearly as special as having Moulds out there .

 

I always hated and felt kind of cheated in a way (like he must have felt) just the way things happened, he was a up and comer when I was a younger Bills fan in the making and he was one of my favorites so I figured I'd give him a little luv from 1 small piece of the Mafia !! 

 

Butler actually came back from his knee injury and had his best ypc in the last two years of his career. His career ended with a catastrophic, multiple lower leg fracture suffered against the Dolphins.

 

Had Butler been more durable, he might be in the Hall of Fame. He was that good.

 

Beyond the obvious responses, Frank Lewis would also have been great with Josh. He was a big horse who could run away from people. He averaged 17.2 ypc as a Bill... similar to but multiple times better player than Gabriel Davis.

 

[BobbyC81]

C’mon, the Losman to Lee Evans connection was the best.

[NoSaint]

On 4/16/2025 at 5:56 PM, Mr. WEO said:

 

there's no relevance to comparing special forces servicemen and pro teams.  you would best move off that, nothing there for you.

 

The Cowboys in the 90's were full of "bad boys", but they mopped the floor with hapless Uncle Marv's "fighting for each other" (at bars, before the SB)--there's a lot of irony there.

 

your argument has 2 logical conclusions:  1) the Bills would do better to emulate the Chiefs and bring in more miscreants off the field, who execute on the field "A culture of bad character") 2) Reid is orders of magnitude better at coaching an NFL team than McD

one consideration is picking at 30 you are often compromising on *something* 

 

a guy with a weak 40 but decent production 

 

a guy with the talents but missing matching production

 

tons of potential but maybe an injury history 

 

or a second tier position 

 

 

I guess the question is how often should that compromise be elite playmaker at key position but risks making off field headlines