What’s your hottest Bills take?

[thronethinker]

19 hours ago, Roundybout said:

Trading up for Sammy Watkins was a perfectly fine move. 

It eventually led us To Josh Allen

 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

I wouldn't be too hard on Allen as I remember him pulling out some clutch game winning drives using his scrambling ability, elite arm strength, and improvisational skills.  Something the Montana and Brady's of the world didn't have.  The one's that stick out in my mind are the Lions Thanksgiving bullet to Diggs, the two at KC to take the lead in the regular season, at Baltimore in the rain after the Poyer interception of Lamar, and two Miami home games in 2022 (snow game) and 2024 (Bass 62 yarder).  I also think I'm cherry picking games (overtime record) to make the case against him being clutch in game winning drive opportunities.  Just to get to overtime in those five games took some late game heroics.  Profootballreference has him at 21 game winning drives since his rookie season.  I'd argue it should've been 23 if it wasn't for the Hail Murray and 13 seconds.  I'm not going to pretend to know how many he failed to make but I've never really viewed him as a "choker" in close games in the 4th quarter.

Edit: forgot about the Houston game...

In the 3rd of those 5 OT games... Gabe Davis, after being on the team for four frigging years, still couldn't run the right routes and took pylon on an option route instead of taking inside leverage which would have been a TD (or interference). I'm sure we all remember that one well.

I do blame Allen for the Vikings OT. Thats the only one I blame him for.

PS, 
 

Most clutch QBs (trailing in the last 5 mins since 2000)

1. Joe Burrow

2. Josh Allen

3. Lamar Jackson

4. Tom Brady

5. Patrick Mahomes

(link)

Edited 17 hours ago by Einstein

[Mikie2times]

20 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I wouldn't be too hard on Allen as I remember him pulling out some clutch game winning drives using his scrambling ability, elite arm strength, and improvisational skills.  Something the Montana and Brady's of the world didn't have.  The one's that stick out in my mind are the Lions Thanksgiving bullet to Diggs, the two at KC to take the lead in the regular season, at Baltimore in the rain after the Poyer interception of Lamar, and two Miami home games in 2022 (snow game) and 2024 (Bass 62 yarder).  I also think I'm cherry picking games (overtime record) to make the case against him being clutch in game winning drive opportunities.  Just to get to overtime in those five games took some late game heroics.  Profootballreference has him at 21 game winning drives since his rookie season.  I'd argue it should've been 23 if it wasn't for the Hail Murray and 13 seconds.  I'm not going to pretend to know how many he failed to make but I've never really viewed him as a "choker" in close games in the 4th quarter.

He's shown more than capable of leading game winnings drives. Which is why I prefaced the "regular season" in our first communication. He even showed more than capable in 13 seconds. But as I said the first time, down 4, 2 minutes left in the Super Bowl? Do you feel confident? I don't. That doesn't all reside on Allen, but it's a bit wild that some think none of it does.  

 

20 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Red herring fallacy.

Him being MVP and having more value than the team has nothing to do with your anti-Allen rhetoric.

No, you're just a homer, which I choose not to be and if anybody says something even slightly diminishing towards Allen it tickles you in places you don't feel comfortable. It sounds like a position of insecurity to be honest.   

 

All that whining you did about taking single plays away from Josh that should have been made. Well, do you recall his fumble on the last drive in 2023? The one that somehow by some miracle bounced right back in his chest surrounded by half the Chiefs. Then on the same drive, missing multiple WR's which would have ultimately made  "Dawkins getting his lunch served" no longer relevant. As would have simply checking it down on the same play. It's just like the arguments with McD. It's all nuance, no substance. At some point, the nuance needs to stop being THE STORY. The actual outcome has to be how things are measured. That is how people who aren't insecure measure things. But if you want to die on the hill of what if vs what is, a lot of people live there so I'm sure it won't be lonely place.  

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Mikie2times

[boco357]

There is way more to the JP Losman history with him and Troy Vincent. And the injury in training camp.

[Mikie2times]

Just now, boco357 said:

There is way more to the JP Losman history with him and Troy Vincent. And the injury in training camp.

 

I like this one 

[Einstein]

15 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Well, do you recall his fumble on the last drive in 2023? The one that somehow by some miracle bounced right back in his chest surrounded by half the Chiefs.

So now we moving on to alternate universes? We are talking about plays that actually happened, and didn't hurt us, but could have if something else might have happened, even though what happened was good? 

"Well gee whiz, you see, if the Eagles bus got hit by a meteor on the way to the stadium, then the Chiefs would have won this years super bowl derp"

This has now reached epic levels of ridiculousness. 
 

15 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Then on the same drive, missing multiple WR's which would have ultimately made  "Dawkins getting his lunch served" no longer relevant. As would have simply checking it down on the same play.

You're talking about him going for the jugular - throwing to Shakir in the endzone for the TD - rather than hitting Diggs on the crosser.

Let's be clear. Allen 1000% made the right choice. You never, ever, ever, ever, ever turn down a TD for a short crosser with the game on the line and the chances of you seeing the ball again basically nill. 

Why? It's simple:

Lets say Allen hits Diggs on that crosser and we get the first down and those 10 yards or so. Great. Now here is the kicker. We have ZERO clue what would happened next. Maybe we bleed all 3 minutes off the clock and score a TD!I Or maybe we have a bad snap, leading to a fumble and the Chiefs getting the ball. Or maybe Allen could have spun out of a tackle and torn his ACL in 3 places (it was raining after all). Or maybe we could have had back-to-back penalties resulting in 1st and 30 and out of field goal range  Every possibility is available under the scenario where he takes the short crosser.

So the options become:

Option A: Take the 7 points
Option B: Take a first down and *maybe* 7 points later

This is simple math. You take the probability with the highest % of scoring the TD every time.

There is not an NFL coach on this planet who is going to tell his QB to look past the open receiver in the endzone because there is an open crosser. NONE. ZIP. NADA. They will all tell you to GO FOR THE ENDZONE!

Allen 100% made the right decision to throw the dagger to Shakir in the endzone. This is not even debatable. And if Dawkins had not got his lunch served to him, this wouldn't even be a discussion. But he did. 

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Einstein

[Augie]

Why is this so hard? Like so much here, it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Josh is really, really, really good, but he’s certainly not perfect. I guess it’s less fun to argue over things that are not so extreme. 

 

That seems to be life these days, sadly. 

 

.

Edited 17 hours ago by Augie

[Doc Brown]

37 minutes ago, Einstein said:

2 of those 5 OT games... Allen never saw the ball. Guess its his fault for losing the coin toss.


(link)

He's 0-6 in overtime and 0-5 when he did possess the ball needing a TD to win (Eagles, Vikings, Bucs, Texans, Jets).

[Mikie2times]

23 minutes ago, Einstein said:

So now we moving on to alternate universes? We are talking about plays that actually happened, and didn't hurt us, but could have if something else might have happened, even though what happened was good? 

"Well gee whiz, you see, if the Eagles bus got hit by a meteor on the way to the stadium, then the Chiefs would have won this years super bowl derp"

This has now reached epic levels of ridiculousness. 
 

You're talking about him going for the jugular - throwing to Shakir in the endzone for the TD - rather than hitting Diggs on the crosser.

Let's be clear. Allen 1000% made the right choice. You never, ever, ever, ever, ever turn down a TD for a short crosser with the game on the line and the chances of you seeing the ball again basically nill. 

Why? It's simple:

Lets say Allen hits Diggs on that crosser and we get the first down and those 10 yards or so. Great. Now here is the kicker. We have ZERO clue what would happened next. Maybe we bleed all 3 minutes off the clock and score a TD!I Or maybe we have a bad snap, leading to a fumble and the Chiefs getting the ball. Or maybe Allen could have spun out of a tackle and torn his ACL in 3 places (it was raining after all). Or maybe we could have had back-to-back penalties resulting in 1st and 30 and out of field goal range  Every possibility is available under the scenario where he takes the short crosser.

So the options become:

Option A: Take the 7 points
Option B: Take a first down and *maybe* 7 points later

This is simple math. You take the probability with the highest % of scoring the TD every time.

There is not an NFL coach on this planet who is going to tell his QB to look past the open receiver in the endzone because there is an open crosser. NONE. ZIP. NADA. They will all tell you to GO FOR THE ENDZONE!

Allen 100% made the right decision to throw the dagger to Shakir in the endzone. This is not even debatable. And if Dawkins had not got his lunch served to him, this wouldn't even be a discussion. But he did. 

 

I’m pretty sure that’s what you started with taking about Kincaid should have done x. Your entire argument is based on an alternate universe. The one I’m talking about is what actually happened. Stop being so offended. I love Allen, it’s the offseason asking for unpopular takes and you got so grossly offended it became laughable. Who the hell is an “Allen hater” around here? My god. The drama. 

[Doc Brown]

44 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

He's shown more than capable of leading game winnings drives. Which is why I prefaced the "regular season" in our first communication. He even showed more than capable in 13 seconds. But as I said the first time, down 4, 2 minutes left in the Super Bowl? Do you feel confident? I don't. That doesn't all reside on Allen, but it's a bit wild that some think none of it does.  

I'm less confident now than I was before the last Chiefs game.  I was confident we'd score a TD this last game because I've seen him lead a touchdown drive to give them the lead late in the 4th quarter at Arrowhead three out of three times already.  Given he's failed the last two playoff games I'd say no to your hypothetical Super Bowl question.

Edited 17 hours ago by Doc Brown

[Doc Brown]

29 minutes ago, Augie said:

Why is this so hard? Like so much here, it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Josh is really, really, really good, but he’s certainly not perfect. I guess it’s less fun to argue over things that are not so extreme. 

Heavy is he who wears the crown or something like that.  He's the highest paid player in the league with an MVP and should be heavily scrutinized until he wins a Super Bowl.

[Einstein]

22 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I’m pretty sure that’s what you started with taking about Kincaid should have done x. Your entire argument is based on an alternate universe.

 

lol no. 

Saying a football player should do what he is paid to do. Example: Catch the ball ... Is drastically and vastly different than stating that *if Allen had not recovered a fumble then bad things would have happened and therefore he should be blamed more*.
 

22 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Stop being so offended. 

I am not offended. I am flabbergasted - but not offended.

 

25 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

He's 0-6 in overtime and 0-5 when he did possess the ball needing a TD to win (Eagles, Vikings, Bucs, Texans, Jets).

Yeah I talked about those games in the part of the post that you cut out.

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Einstein

[Mikie2times]

7 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

lol no. 

Saying a football player should do what he is paid to do. Example: Catch the ball ... Is drastically and vastly different than stating that *if Allen had not recovered a fumble then bad things would have happened and therefore he should be blamed more*.
 

I am not offended. I am flabbergasted - but not offended.

 

Yeah I talked about those games in the part of the post that you cut out.

 

 

I really don't see a distinction in a hypothetical that didn't go our way and analyzing situations that did (at complete random) go our way. It's a balanced way to evaluate the nuance. But like I said, sort of sick of the nuance. We faced a game winning drive in the playoffs 4 times and only one of them did we get it done. If you don't think the hall of fame QB should own at least some of that I don't know what to tell you. We just aren't aligned here, which is fine. That's why we debate our thoughts on the site. In the end I don't see many scenarios where we win it all that won't put this conversation to bed. So hopefully we have nothing to talk about in the near future. But as far as support for Josh, mine is at the highest levels.    

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

Heavy is he who wears the crown or something like that.  He's the highest paid player in the league with an MVP and should be heavily scrutinized until he wins a Super Bowl.

True, just like the team and coaches around him he should be 100% accountable. He can’t catch the ball, make the tackle or keep our guys from fumbling. It’s a blend, people, and the blend is fluid. 

 

EDIT: But I do believe he could have stopped the Hail Murray! I’ll give him that!  😊

Edited 16 hours ago by Augie

[estro613]

By seasons end, Cole Bishops progression as a player will be viewed in the same light as Terrell Bernard and Christian Benford  in their second season. A very solid starter blooming into a potential high end starter 

 

I predict hes the next to take a giant 2nd year leap

[Einstein]

51 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I really don't see a distinction in a hypothetical that didn't go our way and analyzing situations that did (at complete random) go our way. 

I genuinely do not understand how you don't see the distinction. It is clear, obvious and delineating. I'll try one more time and then leave it at that.

Kincaid dropping a pass is a tangible failure - he didn’t perform a basic task that he is specifically paid to do. There is no hypothetical here. He *should* have caught the pass. It is what he is paid to do.

This is contrasted with you imagining various what-ifs about what could have happened if Allen didn't recover a fumble that he did recover. This is not analyzing reality, it's just imagining scenarios to artificially increase blame on Allen. You're trying to punish Allen for something bad that didn’t happen. Whereas I am discussing something that *did* happen (Kincaid dropping the ball).

Long story short (breaking through all the noise) - you just want to continue with anti-Allen rhetoric. That's all it boils down to.
 

 

[Mikie2times]

6 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I genuinely do not understand how you don't see the distinction. It is clear, obvious and delineating. I'll try one more time and then leave it at that.

Kincaid dropping a pass is a tangible failure - he didn’t perform a basic task that he is specifically paid to do. There is no hypothetical here. He *should* have caught the pass. It is what he is paid to do.

This is contrasted with you imagining various what-ifs about what could have happened if Allen didn't recover a fumble that he did recover. This is not analyzing reality, it's just imagining scenarios to artificially increase blame on Allen. You're trying to punish Allen for something bad that didn’t happen. Whereas I am discussing something that *did* happen (Kincaid dropping the ball).

Long story short (breaking through all the noise) - you just want to continue with anti-Allen rhetoric. That's all it boils down to.
 

 

Got it, Josh was perfect on those game winning drives. It was only the external forces working against him that held him down. He has no responsibility for any of those failures. You have watched the tape and despite multiple neutral parties citing missed opportunities he bares no responsibility. Anybody who doesn’t see it this way has an agenda to attack Josh.  
 

Like I said, Homer. Which at this point is getting complimentary. 

[nedboy7]

This fanbase is the reason the Bills will never win the big one.  Hating your own team is bad karma. 

[Augie]

2 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

I’m pretty sure that’s what you started with taking about Kincaid should have done x. Your entire argument is based on an alternate universe. The one I’m talking about is what actually happened. Stop being so offended. I love Allen, it’s the offseason asking for unpopular takes and you got so grossly offended it became laughable. Who the hell is an “Allen hater” around here? My god. The drama. 

 

I saw enough drama when our kids were in high school.

 

I avoid drama like the plague. It’s so………..high school. 

 

 

.

Edited 15 hours ago by Augie

[Einstein]

17 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

This fanbase is the reason the Bills will never win the big one.  Hating your own team is bad karma. 

 

They’ll hate the best players too. Which, objectively, makes absolutely no sense.