What’s your hottest Bills take?

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

If Ted Rogers didn’t died of a heart attack in 2008, they’d be the Toronto Bills.  

The lease wouldn’t have allowed it. They would have been forced to be a lame duck franchise in OP for like a decade. I don’t remember the specifics but Toronto was never an actual option. Ralph had tied them in with no potential outs. The lease was his last gift to WNY. 

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

The Bills only realistically had a chance to win the first SB.  The other 3 were against better teams.

 

As for the first SB, I chalk it up mostly to the team, as was its wont back in the day, partying up until the wee hours of SB morning and being out of shape when game time rolled around.  I also think that Marchibroda should have told Kelly that they're not playing the run and to keep feeding Thurman until they do.

I thought we were better than Dallas in the last one. We beat them earlier in the year and had them on the ropes in that game. 

[Kirby Jackson]

9 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Kelly played in an era where if you had 20 TD’s and 15 INT’s you could be a top 5 QB. Comparing stats is completely pointless. He was a hall of fame level QB in that era and is certainly in the conversation with Marino, Elway, Moon, Aikman, more than Esiason, Cunningham, Testaverde, Kosar, etc. 

Not just comparing stats because eras are different. He wasn’t nearly as efficient either. Marino, Montana/Young and Elway were ahead of him. Favre was later in his career as well. He could have been next. He was in the tier with the next group with Moon and Aikman. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Kirby Jackson

[Mikie2times]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

Not just comparing stats because eras were different. He wasn’t nearly as efficient either. Marino, Montana/Young and Elway were ahead of him. Favre was later in his career as well. He could have been next. He was in the tier with the next group with Moon and Aikman. 

I don’t think anybody is arguing Jim is an all timer. So it’s ok to not be in the same class as Marino, Montana, Young, or Elway. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a cut above the cloth and high level performer for a very long time. He was close enough to those guys. Close enough to be a hall of famer with very few disputing it. Perhaps he has some boosted fan recognition with us because he was Mr. Buffalo before Josh, but he probably deserves as much for what he’s done for the Bills in publicity and name recognition. He was the face of the previous dynasty even if Bruce, Thurman, Andre were batter players. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

The Bills only realistically had a chance to win the first SB.  The other 3 were against better teams.

They definitely had a chance in the second Super Bowl too. Kelly just played so incredibly horrible that he doomed us.

That and the offense as a whole played uncharacteristically terrible. And it wasn't because Washington was so good that they forced the Bills to play poorly. There were at least 2 TD drops (maybe 3?). Plus Kelly completely abandoning the run game and throwing some terrible INTs. A lot of unforced errors.

Allen wins 2 of those Super Bowls.

 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I don’t think anybody is arguing Jim is an all timer. So it’s ok to not be in the same class as Marino, Montana, Young, or Elway. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a cut above the cloth and high level performer for a very long time. He was close enough to those guys. Close enough to be a hall of famer with very few disputing it. Perhaps he has some boosted fan recognition with us because he was Mr. Buffalo before Josh, but he probably deserves as much for what he’s done for the Bills in publicity and name recognition. He was the face of the previous dynasty even if Bruce, Thurman, Andre were batter players. 

Strangely, we are pretty much in agreement. He belongs in the HOF. He was a crucial part of that dynasty. I was simply suggesting that he was an important piece but not the reason for their greatness. In hindsight, his status has been elevated. He was very good.

[Mikie2times]

As for my own unpopular takes, to which I have many regarding our current leadership, I think Josh should take more heat for not leading a TD drive vs KC the last two years. We blame a lot of reasons why those drives didn't work out. But at the end of the day the all time greats get 6. Otherwise they wouldn't be the all time greats. Josh has had more control over his narrative than many seem to think. Plays were there to be made outside of Bass missing a field goal or Kincaid dropping the ball. Sure, without Josh none of it happens. Sure, we can point to dozens of reasons we lost which seem to be pretty low hanging fruit in comparison. But it seems like most people believe Allen has been a victim of circumstance, when the reality is he had the ball two straight years at the end of the game and we just didn't get it done.   

[Mr. WEO]

25 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Kelly played in an era where if you had 20 TD’s and 15 INT’s you could be a top 5 QB. Comparing stats is completely pointless. He was a hall of fame level QB in that era and is certainly in the conversation with Marino, Elway, Moon, Aikman, more than Esiason, Cunningham, Testaverde, Kosar, etc. 

 

Marino would have had at least 2 Lombardies on those Bills teams.

 

If the Bills lost 4 AFCC in a row back then, Kelly doesn't get into the Hall.

[stuvian]

I have read about our curse of having The Ralph constructed on an indigenous burial ground. Not sure if building next door is going to exorcise that.

 

On purely football matters, this is my last season giving Beane the benefit of the doubt as a personnel man. We have zero playmakers on defense. Coaching can only do so much.

 

If the Rams and Eagles can draft late and retool why can't we? We improved on the field by going run first and cutting our turnovers in half. Now it's time to improve off the field in our scouting. Great organizations keep finding ways to improve.

 

Yes, a great QB like Josh can make up for a lot of shortcomings but I'm tired of us expecting him to bail out the defense over and over. 

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Marino would have had at least 2 Lombardies on those Bills teams.

 

If the Bills lost 4 AFCC in a row back then, Kelly doesn't get into the Hall.

Perhaps, but was Jim a better leader than Marino? Leadership being a driving force behind the perseverance we had in that era. 

 

I also think it's a mistake to assume the K-Gun could have been ran in a similar way with other QB's. Maybe it could, that's something we will never know. But I like to think part of it was who he was and how he played vs just a plug and play system. 

[QLBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

I have a different take on that first SB and the JK era. Polian designed those teams to get the lead on offense and then rush the passer with Bruce and Biscuit. 

 

Consider that first SB, as the defense simply couldn't stop the run, period!  OJ Anderson owned the Bills that game. (ToP 40:33 to 19:37.)  Looking back at it Bills coaches should have paid more attention to what the NY Giants did to shut down the Joe Montana led 49ers in that NFC Championship game a 13-15 win. 

 

Anyway, I still can't believe that Bruce Smith had his hand on Jeff Hostetler's wrist...who had the ball ...in his hand...in the end zone! Ole Jeff just curled up around it and took the safety. Besides that, Scott Norwood didn't have the leg to kick a 47-yarder on grass. 

 

Looking back at those years the Bills teams besides the 90, they were so beaten up just getting by the tougher AFC teams to even get to an SB. 

 

Jim Kelly was one tough SoB and there is a real reason why he, Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas along with Marv are in the HoF. If I were to complain about those teams it would start with the defense and stopping the run. I wasn't a Walt Corey fan. The Buffalo offense was usually always in the top 10 with JK, TT, AR. 

All true but they scored 19 in SB and while the run D was dreadful JK didn’t push the ball downfield to give Norwood a better % kick. He was lights out inside 45 in his career. Not to mention Steve Young SB lead up was pleading with JK and some players to not got caught up in the festivities of the week.. 

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Mikie2times said:

Perhaps, but was Jim a better leader than Marino? Leadership being a driving force behind the perseverance we had in that era. 

 

I also think it's a mistake to assume the K-Gun could have been ran in a similar way with other QB's. Maybe it could, that's something we will never know. But I like to think part of it was who he was and how he played vs just a plug and play system. 

 

Kelly was never the passer that Marino or Moon were.

 

Better leader?  lol...That wasn't clear when he and the fellas were lighting up the town every night before twice getting lit up by the Cowboys......

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Kelly was never the passer that Marino or Moon were.

 

Better leader?  lol...That wasn't clear when he and the fellas were lighting up the town every night before twice getting lit up by the Cowboys......

So Dan didn't party? Jim had some immature moments for the circumstances, but to say he wasn't a leader because he partied a bit is really a stretch. 

[Doc Brown]

15 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

As for my own unpopular takes, to which I have many regarding our current leadership, I think Josh should take more heat for not leading a TD drive vs KC the last two years. We blame a lot of reasons why those drives didn't work out. But at the end of the day the all time greats get 6. Otherwise they wouldn't be the all time greats. Josh has had more control over his narrative than many seem to think. Plays were there to be made outside of Bass missing a field goal or Kincaid dropping the ball. Sure, without Josh none of it happens. Sure, we can point to dozens of reasons we lost which seem to be pretty low hanging fruit in comparison. But it seems like most people believe Allen has been a victim of circumstance, when the reality is he had the ball two straight years at the end of the game and we just didn't get it done.   

I don't blame the last KC game on him.  Kincaid has to come down with that.  I do the one the year before where Bass missed the field goal.  Brady's play call too.  The Bills had the perfect opportunity to drain that clock and score with little time left to go up four.  It was the only way we were winning that game with AJ freaking Klein covering Kelce.  Josh then decides to take a low percentage 30 yard pass to the middle of the end zone coming out of the two minute warning on 2nd down when he had a wide open Diggs on the check down that would've either got the first down or a very manageable 3rd and short.  Clock stops and we're in a 3rd and long.  Even if we get the Shakir TD the Chiefs had pry an 80%ish chance of scoring a TD to win the game with that much time left.  Poor decision by Josh.

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

So Dan didn't party? Jim had some immature moments for the circumstances, but to say he wasn't a leader because he partied a bit is really a stretch. 

 

He was out partying before at least 2 of those losses...after 2 previous losses.  A "leader" would keep the guys in and focused ....and partied after the win.  This isn't hard. 

[Mango]

Terry Pegula is a terrible owner and will eventually tank the Bills once he moves on from McBeane.

 

What McBeane lack in closing out games and/or hitting on top 100 picks they make up for in managing one of the worst owners in the big 4 sports leagues.

 

By all accounts Pegula is a decent dude. But you can't convince me that he's not a terrible people manager.

[Mikie2times]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

He was out partying before at least 2 of those losses...after 2 previous losses.  A "leader" would keep the guys in and focused ....and partied after the win.  This isn't hard. 

And somebody who has no respect from his teammates wouldn't lead a team to 4 straight Super Bowl appearance. It isn't very hard. 

[Doc Brown]

23 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Marino would have had at least 2 Lombardies on those Bills teams.

 

If the Bills lost 4 AFCC in a row back then, Kelly doesn't get into the Hall.

The you have to go down the rabbit hole of if we drafted Marino in '83 would we have been in position to draft Bruce Smith with the 1st pick?  Would we have had the ammunition to get Bennett in a trade?  It's a fruitless "what if" exercise for that reason. 

[Mango]

20 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

That’s what makes it spicy. Kelly isn’t in the league with Josh. 
 

edit: I can also tell how old someone is or how long they’ve followed the Bills by their Kelly takes. He was a borderline, top 5 player on those teams. He was Jalen Hurts. If you think he was better than that it is because your dad told you that. I never saw OJ play but my dad insists, with the possible exceptions of Bruce and Josh, he’s the best Bills player ever. Tom Sestak carries that status too for a lot of older folks. Kelly was better as a memory than as a player. He was closer to Fitz than to Josh.

 

I'm too young for OJ but you watch those clips or games and it's glaringly obvious that he's often the best athlete on the field by a country mile. I think he easily deserves to be on th Bills Mount Rushmor of greats (murder aside).

 

Funny you put this out there because today I had a random thought that if Allen QB'd those 90's teams they'd likely have won at least one SB. 

[Doc Brown]

56 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Not just comparing stats because eras are different. He wasn’t nearly as efficient either. Marino, Montana/Young and Elway were ahead of him. Favre was later in his career as well. He could have been next. He was in the tier with the next group with Moon and Aikman. 

Yeah.  I'd agree with that.  Kelly is the only QB in bills history to be a first team All Pro I believe so I don't want to undersell him too much.