What’s your hottest Bills take?

[Mikie2times]

8 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I don't blame the last KC game on him.  Kincaid has to come down with that.  I do the one the year before where Bass missed the field goal.  Brady's play call too.  The Bills had the perfect opportunity to drain that clock and score with little time left to go up four.  It was the only way we were winning that game with AJ freaking Klein covering Kelce.  Josh then decides to take a low percentage 30 yard pass to the middle of the end zone coming out of the two minute warning on 2nd down when he had a wide open Diggs on the check down that would've either got the first down or a very manageable 3rd and short.  Clock stops and we're in a 3rd and long.  Even if we get the Shakir TD the Chiefs had pry an 80%ish chance of scoring a TD to win the game with that much time left.  Poor decision by Josh.

It's not blaming him for the losses, but around these parts he doesn't have any culpability. He should have some. Other plays happened besides the Kincaid drop and again the year prior, even more plays happened outside the Shakir throw. He had game winning drive attempts at Houston and twice vs KC in the playoffs. 13 seconds, he clearly rose to the moment just about more so than anybody in NFL history. But to have 3 of 4 game winning playoff drives produce zero points and get treated like a victim is an interesting thought process by our fan base. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

And somebody who has no respect from his teammates wouldn't lead a team to 4 straight Super Bowl appearance. It isn't very hard. 

 

Oh he certainly had their respect.  That's not what we are discussing.  These guys no doubt LOVED partying with Jimbo.  But as the team leader--he set the tone.  The tone he set was "let's go out and rock this town, get in some bar fights, before we play the SB"......

 

Even the Cowboys, notorious party fiends back in the day, knew how to act on the road during SB week. The difference in results could no be more clear.

[Mikie2times]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

Oh he certainly had their respect.  That's not what we are discussing.  These guys no doubt LOVED partying with Jimbo.  But as the team leader--he set the tone.  The tone he set was "let's go out and rock this town, get in some bar fights, before we play the SB"......

 

Even the Cowboys, notorious party fiends back in the day, knew how to act on the road during SB week. The difference in results could no be more clear.

Your take on this is we made it to all those Super Bowls based on our talent (because clearly Kelly's leadership or ability didn't have anything to do with it) but we lost those Super Bowls because of Jim and his reckless tone setting ways. It's interesting that so many of Jim's teammates followed him off the partying deep end. It's almost like they thought he was, I don't know, the leader. Unfortunately for you, logic doesn't allow all the thoughts you're having to coexist at the same time.    

[Doc Brown]

4 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

It's not blaming him for the losses, but around these parts he doesn't have any culpability. He should have some. Other plays happened besides the Kincaid drop and again the year prior, even more plays happened outside the Shakir throw. He had game winning drive attempts at Houston and twice vs KC in the playoffs. 13 seconds, he clearly rose to the moment just about more so than anybody in NFL history. But to have 3 of 4 game winning playoff drives produce zero points and get treated like a victim is an interesting thought process by our fan base. 

It's a defense mechanism by Bills fans when all we hear is how Allen is 0 in 4 against Mahomes in the playoffs.  No reference to the fact that he should at minimum be 1-3  if it wasn't for an epic meltdown by our coaching and defense with 13 seconds left.  On the pie chart of blame for the Chiefs losses he's not even close to coaching, defense, and weapons coming up small in big moments.

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

It's a defense mechanism by Bills fans when all we hear is how Allen is 0 in 4 against Mahomes in the playoffs.  No reference to the fact that he should at minimum be 1-3  if it wasn't for an epic meltdown by our coaching and defense with 13 seconds left.  On the pie chart of blame for the Chiefs losses he's not even close to coaching, defense, and weapons coming up small in big moments.

We make the Super bowl, offense has the ball down 4 with 2 minutes. How confident are you? I'm not at all confident. Regular season, sure, but that big of a moment? I don't feel that I would be. Ultimately we have to become automatic in those spots. All the great teams and great QB's have. I feel we are a long way from that and that lives independent of most the concerns you stated (as valid as they might be). 

[Maine-iac]

Totally living up to the hot takes title.  Some crazy takes in here.  My hot take is some people commenting here didn't live through the Kelly years to see how dominant that team was and Kelly was the leader.  Best hypothetical I can think of is if Allen had taken us to four straight SB's the last 4 years and 25 years from now an NFL season has 18 games, they've made rule changes to help passing, and QB's are throwing for 6,000 yards and 50 TD's and some one tells you Allen wasn't very good.  Mahommes is good because he won a couple SB's but not Allen. 

[Doc Brown]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

We make the Super bowl, offense has the ball down 4 with 2 minutes. How confident are you? I'm not at all confident. Regular season, sure, but that big of a moment? I don't feel that I would be. Ultimately we have to become automatic in those spots. All the great teams and great QB's have. I feel we are a long way from that and that lives independent of most the concerns you stated (as valid as they might be). 

I'm not even that confident in the regular season.  Allen's 0-5 in overtime despite having the ball and needing a TD to win it.

[Mr. WEO]

14 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Your take on this is we made it to all those Super Bowls based on our talent (because clearly Kelly's leadership or ability didn't have anything to do with it) but we lost those Super Bowls because of Jim and his reckless tone setting ways. It's interesting that so many of Jim's teammates followed him off the partying deep end. It's almost like they thought he was, I don't know, the leader. Unfortunately for you, logic doesn't allow all the thoughts you're having to coexist at the same time.    

 

Since you brought it up...is this what "a better leader" does after 2 SB losses?  He certainly was an effectual leader--as you yourself point out he led them right off the deep end.  Why would he lead them this far only to make the same poor decisions in leadership again and again? 

 

Is that the good kind of powerful leadership or the not so good kind?  Your logic plainly concluded (off the deep end) above that it was the latter.  But yes, he certainly was a strong leader.  Aikman was able to keep the lunatics on his roster in check long enough to mop up 2 SBs with those Strongly led by Jumbo.  

 

 

 

[stevewin]

Its actually a good thing to perennially wim the divisiom, make the playoffs, and be in contention for a SB

[Doc Brown]

2 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Its actually a good thing to perennially wim the divisiom, make the playoffs, and be in contention for a SB

 

[Mikie2times]

9 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I'm not even that confident in the regular season.  Allen's 0-5 in overtime despite having the ball and needing a TD to win it.

Which has always troubled me because I think something is lurking behind our powerful offense that often doesn't get talked about.  I think those drives require precision, timing, and not getting behind the sticks. You will get the best a DC has to offer and those tools along with tempo are what allow you to keep them off-balance. If you look at the two very best of all time in those moments, Montana and Brady, that was the style they played with. The ball was out in a split second, accurately delivered, precise and repeatable. 

 

We create our precision and chain movers with the run game, screens, short passes, and QB run game. All of which become less available in that moment. Which essentially puts us into a Brady/Montana like requirement for precision passing. That isn't who we are. We will become inefficient, throw incompletions, fail to establish tempo and get behind the chains. All the things that can't happen in those moments as DC's can become really aggressive. 

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, Nephilim17 said:

Ok, this should get some flames: I think Cook is relatively easy to replace and last year was his career year — he's not gonna get close to 16 TDs ever again. He's good, just not great and if he leaves, no big deal.

You’re probably correct, 

[Mikie2times]

15 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Its actually a good thing to perennially wim the divisiom, make the playoffs, and be in contention for a SB

It could also be a curse. Friction often leads to growth. Eagles totally fell apart two seasons ago. It triggered a massive evaluation process. They win the Super Bowl the next year. Sure, it doesn't always work out that way. But part of me thinks this team could benefit from a total stinker year. Even if it was still McD and Beane running it back. I think that creates an urgency for improvement we haven't really seen of late. 

[Don Otreply]

Post season play calling in clutch moments has been pathetic, and is only equaled by the miserable execution of those plays, 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

damn I love this thread 🤣

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

 Other plays happened besides the Kincaid drop and again the year prior, even more plays happened outside the Shakir throw. 

 

Right so let’s ignore the plays that aren’t Allen’s fault and focus on the ones where it *might* be partially his fault in some way, shape or form (maybe).

 

vs KC 2023 - Dawkins got his lunch served to him and disrupted what would have been a TD throw by Allen that would have had us taking the lead.

 

@ KC 2024 - The 4th and inches BS call by the refs (with the ref who had the clearer view signaling first down yet deferring to the ref with the less clear view). And the Kincaid drop. And Dorsey, err I mean Brady, leaving our most dynamic non-QB player on offense on the sideline.

 

But let’s ignore those. Let’s pretend those didn’t happen because there were other plays that happened too and those plays are the ones that you want to harp on because Allen *might* have some culpability there, because he definitely has no culpability with the other plays.

 

Between Gunnar pretending he knows more than Ryan Fitzpatrick and you wanting to ignore every play by Allen that would have won/taken the lead in a game, the anti-Allen rhetoric has reached a ridiculous point on this forum.

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

Right so let’s ignore the plays that aren’t Allen’s fault and focus on the ones where it *might* be partially his fault in some way, shape or form (maybe).

 

vs KC 2023 - Dawkins got his lunch served to him and disrupted what would have been a TD throw by Allen that would have had us taking the lead.

 

@ KC 2024 - The 4th and inches BS call by the refs (with the ref who had the clearer view signaling first down yet deferring to the ref with the less clear view). And the Kincaid drop. And Dorsey, err I mean Brady, leaving our most dynamic non-QB player on offense on the sideline.

 

But let’s ignore those. Let’s pretend those didn’t happen because there were other plays that happened too and those plays are the ones that you want to harp on because Allen *might* have some culpability there, because he definitely has no culpability with the other plays.

 

Between Gunnar pretending he knows more than Ryan Fitzpatrick and you wanting to ignore every play by Allen that would have won/taken the lead in a game, the anti-Allen rhetoric has reached a ridiculous point on this forum.

Anti Allen rhetoric? He's the F'in MVP and his value is more than the rest of our entire team. Get a grip. 

[Einstein]

29 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Its actually a good thing to perennially wim the divisiom, make the playoffs, and be in contention for a SB

 

If a magical genie came to you tomorrow and said:

 

I will grant a lifetime of winning the division, making the playoffs, and “contending” for a SB, but it’s guaranteed that you will never see a Bills Super Bowl win ever.

 

Would you take that deal?

[Doc Brown]

8 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Which has always troubled me because I think something is lurking behind our powerful offense that often doesn't get talked about.  I think those drives require precision, timing, and not getting behind the sticks. You will get the best a DC has to offer and those tools along with tempo are what allow you to keep them off-balance. If you look at the two very best of all time in those moments, Montana and Brady, that was the style they played with. The ball was out in a split second, accurately delivered, precise and repeatable. 

 

We create our precision and chain movers with the run game, screens, short passes, and QB run game. All of which become less available in that moment. Which essentially puts us into a Brady/Montana like requirement for precision passing. That isn't who we are. We will become inefficient, throw incompletions, fail to establish tempo and get behind the chains. All the things that can't happen in those moments as DC's can become really aggressive. 

I wouldn't be too hard on Allen as I remember him pulling out some clutch game winning drives using his scrambling ability, elite arm strength, and improvisational skills.  Something the Montana and Brady's of the world didn't have.  The one's that stick out in my mind are the Lions Thanksgiving bullet to Diggs, the two at KC to take the lead in the regular season, at Baltimore in the rain after the Poyer interception of Lamar, and two Miami home games in 2022 (snow game) and 2024 (Bass 62 yarder).  I also think I'm cherry picking games (overtime record) to make the case against him being clutch in game winning drive opportunities.  Just to get to overtime in those five games took some late game heroics.  Profootballreference has him at 21 game winning drives since his rookie season.  I'd argue it should've been 23 if it wasn't for the Hail Murray and 13 seconds.  I'm not going to pretend to know how many he failed to make but I've never really viewed him as a "choker" in close games in the 4th quarter.

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

Anti Allen rhetoric? He's the F'in MVP and his value is more than the rest of our entire team. Get a grip. 

Red herring fallacy.

Him being MVP and having more value than the team has nothing to do with your anti-Allen rhetoric.

[Augie]

20 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

If a magical genie came to you tomorrow and said:

 

I will grant a lifetime of winning the division, making the playoffs, and “contending” for a SB, but it’s guaranteed that you will never see a Bills Super Bowl win ever.

 

Would you take that deal?

 

Well, that’s not how it works. In reality you have to be in the playoffs to win the Super Bowl. THAT is how it works.