Will Josh ever be a pocket QB like the GOAT

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

 

Different game back then. You didn't have designed runs for QBs like you see today. Just about every QB in college runs now. Elway would run to avoid the rush or if the play broke down, he would run to pick up the first down. He was considered a running QB from his era, but it was nothing like today's game.

Different yes.  But Elway was lumbering and slow—nothing special as a runner.  Wasn’t even the best running QB of his time. 

[akinko_kd]

17 has overcome the challenges each year.
Pass success rate...fewer interceptions....
If the time comes when he has to be a pocket QB, he will be.

[skibum]

I think the Bills have been most successful when Josh improvises: He can buy enough time for coverage to fall apart, and then he can throw a dart to anywhere, from any position. It's a huge advantage, albeit a very unpredictable one. 

 

Unfortunately, he is not nearly as good at hitting the planned quick reads over and over again the way Brady did. If he ever figures that out, and I think he can, he could be the GOAT. He just needs to process the first two seconds of the play a lot faster. 

Edited Wednesday at 06:13 PM by skibum

[Buffalo03]

I mean, he is in some ways. Not every throw he makes is on the run or outside the pocket 

[Doc Brown]

5 hours ago, Ga boy said:

Has anyone ever done an analysis of the percentage of plays that JA17 goes off script with plays, say, compared to Tom Brady?  Last year, Josh was more selective in running the ball, but passing still seems to be mostly sandlot ball.  Every year I think I’ll see our QB become more of a pocket passer.  Maybe he just can’t do it.  After all, he is MVP, so why change.  The main reason to change is to give him more years to win multiple Lombardi’s.  When will he become a pocket passer?  He has the gun of Marino so he should be able to do it.

I get where you're going but you need the offensive roster similar to what we had in 2020.  Three receivers like Diggs, Beasley, and John Brown still at their peak physically and a top five o-line in pass protection.  Led to the most passing yards and lowest running yards of Alllen's career.

[Puckman5]

5 hours ago, wppete said:

 

Tis the season 

If Josh has an injury to his groin or shows signs of early onset ED, do you think Hailee leave him?  How would this affect his performance on the field.  Discuss amongst yourselves. 

[Don Otreply]

5 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

We still have over a month until the draft. April 24th - 26th. 

There in lies the problem, 

 

 

people like me will start threads about what cleats and mouth guards the players are using…,  🤣

[sven233]

This is a discussion that isn't even worth having.  The QBs playing today are redefining the position just as guys from Brady's era redefined the position from the Kelly, Marino, and Elway era.  The rules, the athletic requirements, and skill set are completely different today than in these other eras and you can't compare them.

 

Guys like Allen, Mahomes, Jackson, Burrow, etc. are going to shatter yardage and TD records by the time they are done.  In fact, if Allen stays healthy and plays for another decade or so, may end up the all time leader in total yards, TDs, etc.  He could hold a ton of NFL records by the time he's done.  Heck, he owns a bunch of them now.  And he may do this without ever having to be the most prolific pocket passer.  You've already seen a steady decline in rushing attempts the last few years from him.  But, what you do see is him making guys miss in the pocket and getting out of the pocket to make a big play down the field.  As long as he never loses that ability to get away from the immediate threats and can get out of there, he will continue to be able to be successful for a very long time.

 

That's why when you start talking about the "GOAT" in football, especially at the QB position, I kind of find it a bit odd.  Sure, Brady is considered by many as the GOAT, but why?  Is it just because of the number of rings or is it because he was the best/most talented to play the position?  Because to me, in football, wins are not a QB stat.  Never have been, never will be.  They are a team stat.  Yes, when talking about legacy, wins have a place......did you affect your team's performance?  Did you make those around you better?  Are you the primary reason your team is successful?  Because there are so many examples of QBs winning Super Bowls that have little to do with the actual outcome of those games.  But there are also many examples, heck, Allen might be the biggest example, of the QB being the best player on the field yet, in the end doesn't win an important game for reasons that are out of their control.  So yeah......what makes you the GOAT?  Because in 10 years, if Allen continues to play like he has been and only wins a Super Bowl or two.....or heck.....even if the Bills never win one but Allen still dominates every season and retires with the most total yards and TDs ever, maybe even by a lot with the trajectory he is on, I think there will be many that can make an argument that you would take Allen over any QB in history because he was the most talented, not because his team kept letting him down.  Guys today may have to adapt their style a little bit, but the rules favor QBs not getting hit and allowing WRs to get open.  That bodes well for this generation of QBs to be successful and put up big numbers for a very long time.

[GerstAusGosheim]

6 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Joe Burrow may disagree with you as I wouldn't consider him overly mobile granted he did rush for 200 yards last season. 

Dan Marino: 301 rushing yards over 17 seasons → 17.7 yards per season

Tom Brady: 1,123 rushing yards over 23 seasons → 48.8 yards per season

Drew Bledsoe: 1,198 rushing yards over 14 seasons → 85.6 yards per season

[SoonerBillsFan]

7 hours ago, Ga boy said:

Has anyone ever done an analysis of the percentage of plays that JA17 goes off script with plays, say, compared to Tom Brady?  Last year, Josh was more selective in running the ball, but passing still seems to be mostly sandlot ball.  Every year I think I’ll see our QB become more of a pocket passer.  Maybe he just can’t do it.  After all, he is MVP, so why change.  The main reason to change is to give him more years to win multiple Lombardi’s.  When will he become a pocket passer?  He has the gun of Marino so he should be able to do it.

I know some fans don't get it, but he needs to be more cerebral 

[Mat68]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Different yes.  But Elway was lumbering and slow—nothing special as a runner.  Wasn’t even the best running QB of his time. 

Vick rushed for nearly 1,000 yards in the early 2000’s.  The melding of the pocket and scrambler is what is rare.  

[Rigotz]

Will Barry Sanders ever put on enough muscle to be more powerful than Jerome Bettis??

 

Will Jerry Rice ever be fast enough to be faster than Tyreek Hill??

 

Will Tom Brady ever build up his arm strength to be able to go 80 yards in the air like Josh Allen?? Will he EVER learn to stiff arm defenders and run them into the ground??

 

Will they?

 

WILL THEY????

 

[loedward22]

8 hours ago, MJS said:

The days of pure pocket passers is over.

Brady would still carve this league up. 

[BigDingus]

Probably, but only if he's given WAY more talent at WR & TE.

 

Look at Allen's stats in 2020 when we had prime Stefon Diggs & Cole Beasley. He still ran quite a bit, but only 421 rush yards & 8 TDs, and much, much fewer designed runs. He was definitely still scrambling, but that's when you saw the change of him always looking downfield & to pass first.

 

As time went on & our OL sucked, he was forced to run around quite a bit more. Combine that with the fact that guys were getting older, we had less weapons outside of Diggs, no real run game, and different OC's, the need to use Josh's legs more increased.

 

But I think with this O-line & a RB like James Cook, the only thing stopping Josh from becoming primarily a pocket passer is talent at outside WR & speed to stretch the field. He'll never be the most accurate & timing-based QB, but Allen's taken a big leap in how he processes defenses. I'm no longer concerned about him locking onto his first read, being uncomfortable making audibles or diagnosing pressure & where to go. 

 

He gets it, so really all that needs to change is having the right personnel.

[FLFan]

8 hours ago, Ga boy said:

Has anyone ever done an analysis of the percentage of plays that JA17 goes off script with plays, say, compared to Tom Brady?  Last year, Josh was more selective in running the ball, but passing still seems to be mostly sandlot ball.  Every year I think I’ll see our QB become more of a pocket passer.  Maybe he just can’t do it.  After all, he is MVP, so why change.  The main reason to change is to give him more years to win multiple Lombardi’s.  When will he become a pocket passer?  He has the gun of Marino so he should be able to do it.

So now we are going to start having Brady envy regarding the best player the Bills have ever had?  I feel sad for you. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

7 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

We have officially reached peak offseason 

I actually like it more on this forum during the offseason. Great football 101 discussion and less fair weather fans. Only the true die hards come here around this time. Plus the draft and training camp are great

[Ga boy]

1 hour ago, sven233 said:

This is a discussion that isn't even worth having.  The QBs playing today are redefining the position just as guys from Brady's era redefined the position from the Kelly, Marino, and Elway era.  The rules, the athletic requirements, and skill set are completely different today than in these other eras and you can't compare them.

 

Guys like Allen, Mahomes, Jackson, Burrow, etc. are going to shatter yardage and TD records by the time they are done.  In fact, if Allen stays healthy and plays for another decade or so, may end up the all time leader in total yards, TDs, etc.  He could hold a ton of NFL records by the time he's done.  Heck, he owns a bunch of them now.  And he may do this without ever having to be the most prolific pocket passer.  You've already seen a steady decline in rushing attempts the last few years from him.  But, what you do see is him making guys miss in the pocket and getting out of the pocket to make a big play down the field.  As long as he never loses that ability to get away from the immediate threats and can get out of there, he will continue to be able to be successful for a very long time.

 

That's why when you start talking about the "GOAT" in football, especially at the QB position, I kind of find it a bit odd.  Sure, Brady is considered by many as the GOAT, but why?  Is it just because of the number of rings or is it because he was the best/most talented to play the position?  Because to me, in football, wins are not a QB stat.  Never have been, never will be.  They are a team stat.  Yes, when talking about legacy, wins have a place......did you affect your team's performance?  Did you make those around you better?  Are you the primary reason your team is successful?  Because there are so many examples of QBs winning Super Bowls that have little to do with the actual outcome of those games.  But there are also many examples, heck, Allen might be the biggest example, of the QB being the best player on the field yet, in the end doesn't win an important game for reasons that are out of their control.  So yeah......what makes you the GOAT?  Because in 10 years, if Allen continues to play like he has been and only wins a Super Bowl or two.....or heck.....even if the Bills never win one but Allen still dominates every season and retires with the most total yards and TDs ever, maybe even by a lot with the trajectory he is on, I think there will be many that can make an argument that you would take Allen over any QB in history because he was the most talented, not because his team kept letting him down.  Guys today may have to adapt their style a little bit, but the rules favor QBs not getting hit and allowing WRs to get open.  That bodes well for this generation of QBs to be successful and put up big numbers for a very long time.

No arguments here.  At this point I’d take JA17 over Marino, who I’ve always considered # uno.

[Kirby Jackson]

9 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I actually like it more on this forum during the offseason. Great football 101 discussion and less fair weather fans. Only the true die hards come here around this time. Plus the draft and training camp are great

I generally agree. The FA & draft discussion is some of the best discussion of the year. In season, is just like a talk show. We just talk matchups or whatever. It’s fine but not as interesting. Lol, once you get between FA & the draft though you get some of this. 🤣🤣

[MJS]

24 minutes ago, loedward22 said:

Brady would still carve this league up. 

I actually think a lot of those elite pocket passers would carve the league up, though, like Brees and Manning. That was the height of the QB position. QBs aren't mentally at that level anymore, in my opinion.

[Mikie2times]

13 minutes ago, MJS said:

I actually think a lot of those elite pocket passers would carve the league up, though, like Brees and Manning. That was the height of the QB position. QBs aren't mentally at that level anymore, in my opinion.

They seem to depend on the defense breaking down more with using athleticism. Brees, Brady, Manning, were not going to run. Which I think forces more development in reading defenses to be honest. When will Josh become better in the pocket? When he doesn't have a choice. 

Edited Wednesday at 10:09 PM by Mikie2times