Is McD compensating for Beane Part #2?

[Doc Brown]

3 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Are you suggesting Oliver is not one of the most explosive 3tech in the NFL? 

 

Wilkins isn't even in his tier of talent. He's just not

Just look at Simmons, Burns, and Wilkins's contracts compared to Oliver.  Money talks.

[Mikie2times]

4 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

 

Looked what up?

 

The only starter missing from Detroit was Hutchinson. I believe anzalone was out too

 

 

By eye test alone Oliver is better 

 

But if you were to add up all the sacks, tfl, pressures, total tackles, pff grades etc. I'd be willing to bet Oliver would be very high among the top dts in the NFL. 

 

 

 

 

McNeil, Davis, Reader, all got hurt in that game, they had 1 starting DL healthy, no starting CB’s, 1 starting LB.  Winning one regular season game or losing one (as we did vs Baltimore) isn't the tell all be all on how talented we are or not. 

 

3 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

 

The bills qb is better than Baltimore 

The RB room is deeper, and cook can do more things as a reciver than Henry 

The bills oline is better 

Our tes are more talented although it's close.

Our wrs were better especially with no zay flowers playing 

 

Dlineman is close. Probably a tie last year. Buffalo had better linebacker talent when Milano was back. 

 

The secondary was close but Baltimore has the edge with Humphrey and Hamilton. 

 

Are you suggesting Oliver is not one of the most explosive 3tech in the NFL? 

 

Wilkins isn't even in his tier of talent. He's just not

I was going to respond but this is just a pure homer take. Which I have gotten into with you before in the past. 

[Kelly to Allen]

Just now, Doc Brown said:

Just look at Simmons, Burns, and Wilkins's contracts compared to Oliver.  Money talks.

 

Maybe. Agree to disagree. Oliver was pretty awesome in this playoff. 

 

I agree with you we need a serious infusion of talent tho

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

McNeil, Davis, Reader, all got hurt in that game, they had 1 starting DL healthy, no starting CB’s, 1 starting LB.  Winning one regular season game or losing one (as we did vs Baltimore) isn't the tell all be all on how talented we are or not. 

 

I was going to respond but this is just a pure homer take. Which I have gotten into with you before in the past. 

 

McNeil got hurt in the 3rd qtr 

 

I can't remember the when the other two got hurt during the game.

 

I believe Carlton Davis was right before halftime 

[BuffAlone]

23 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

This is pry the main reason for a lot of good players but not many elite one's.  Picking late in all the rounds every year hasn't exactly helped Beane acquire elite talent.  I'm not absolving him of all responsibility (we could've had Metcalf twice now) but It's one of the downsides of missing the playoffs only once in eight years.  Although, even when we had a top 10 pick (besides trading up for Allen) we chose Ed Oliver over D-lineman like Wilkins, Simmons, Lawrence, and Burns.  

Touché. But no to ball grabbers,or other such nefarious doers

[Awwufelloff]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

So I do, and long have, fallen more on the side of we lack elite difference makers rather than "our coaches are the problem." Ultimately players are more important than coaches, always have been, always will be. 

 

However, it is fair to say that there are always two parts to pro bowl, all pro, top 100 type recognition and that is usage as well as talent. Again I lean to the latter being more important than the former but im setting the context for the discussion I think it is important to put that out there.

I'm not so sure about that. The Sabres had Eichel, Reinhart, and ROR and still were a bottom 5 team. All 3 of those guys left and won stanley cups with the Knights, Panthers, and Blues. They were all #1 centers, the hardest piece to get in hockey and we couldn't even come close to the playoffs. Coaching and development is MASSIVE.

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

 

This is about where I expected this to fall. Which sort of leaves us in the exact same place where we started. Our overall rankings are better than average but well below the top 5. The last two years of AFC and NFC championship games are made up of only teams with a total score of 25+ with the exception being Buffalo and the Redskins.  Nearly all of that contribution is coming on the side of the ball Allen plays on. How much influence does Allen have on Cook and some of our offensive lineman? A decent amount from my view. While Allen covers for everybody to some extent, I would argue McD has done more with less when you look at the best performing teams in the NFL. Those teams just have better players, yet we still keep matching the wins. So again, is that McD or Allen or both? Not sure. But I'm more confident in saying it can't be Beane. 

 

 

 

 

You're acting as if the numbers you have gathered are objective proof of how good the roster is. They are not.

 

All of them are subjective, All Pro, Pro Bowl and Top 100. They're all votes, all of them. As such, they're subjective, a compilation of opinions. And there are some obvious problems with the results. 

 

Just one example is that according to the Top 100 list, 15 of the top 100 players in the league are QBs. That's absurd. Especially as according to the last top 100 list, Aaron Rodgers is a top 100 player. This came before the 2024 season, but he hasn't been a top 100 guy in several years. But he's a QB and he's famous.

 

20 of the top 100 list are WRs. Again, absurd.

 

In contrast, 2 of the top 100 are guards, 7 are OTs and 0 are centers. In other words, 9 OLs are among the top 100 best players, while 15 QBs make it, including Aaron Rodgers, Tua Tagovailoa, Kirk Cousins, Brock Purdy and Dak Prescott. Not only that, but only 4 CBs made it. It's about fame and about positional value rather than about being great players. 

 

So if you've got a damn good OL, as we do, you're not likely to come out of it seeing results in the top 100, particularly if people can say that your QB's few sacks come from running away well. And

 

Pro Bowls and All Pro at least try to include all positions, but there are still major flaws. Very rarely do slot corners get named at CB, for example. Taron Johnson's never made a Pro Bowl, for instance. Ridiculous, but true.

 

All of those stats are swayed by fame and recognition. Super Bowl winning teams will always be over-represented the next year. 

 

More, teams that have great units, particularly great OLs will often not get rewarded commensurately. Games are won in the trenches, but glory, fame and individual honors not so much.

 

And teams with an "everybody eats" strategy will be hurt by that in all of these measures even if they are one of the absolute best and most productive offenses in the league. No stars equals no mentions on your measurements here.

 

Bottom line, it's Josh Allen. And Sean McDermott. And Brandon Beane. All doing their jobs very well. McDermott gets them to play well as a team despite a relative lack of glory for many. And Beane brings in guys who will thrive in that kind of environment despite having to deal with extremely low draft picks year after year and the QB's second contract taking up a very high percentage of the team's cap. Despite Josh's willingness to take less than he is actually worth, he's still really expensive.

 

 

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, Awwufelloff said:

I'm not so sure about that. The Sabres had Eichel, Reinhart, and ROR and still were a bottom 5 team. All 3 of those guys left and won stanley cups with the Knights, Panthers, and Blues. They were all #1 centers, the hardest piece to get in hockey and we couldn't even come close to the playoffs. Coaching and development is MASSIVE.

Or just throw Hasek in the net.  I think it was '97-'98 when Donald Audette was our leading goal scorer with 20 something goals and we managed to reach the conference finals.  The best year by a goalie I've ever seen.

 

Also, it's an apples and oranges comparison when it comes to player development related to coaching in the NHL compared to the NFL. 

Edited yesterday at 07:44 AM by Doc Brown

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Awwufelloff said:

I'm not so sure about that. The Sabres had Eichel, Reinhart, and ROR and still were a bottom 5 team. All 3 of those guys left and won stanley cups with the Knights, Panthers, and Blues. They were all #1 centers, the hardest piece to get in hockey and we couldn't even come close to the playoffs. Coaching and development is MASSIVE.

 

First of all, I don't give a rat's anus about hockey. Second, coaching and development matter. But they don't matter more than talent. Talent matters more than anything else. And the Bills at the elite end have lacked it. Especially the past two years when Josh has been the only elite guy on the roster.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Just look at Simmons, Burns, and Wilkins's contracts compared to Oliver.  Money talks.

 

The Wilkins contract is, and was, ridiculous. I'd take Ed over him 100 times out of 100. Simmons is a stud, however. He slid in that draft for reasons other than ability.

6 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

We must afford Gunner the opportunity to use a bunch of tangled words to blame Beane.  

 

I mean my one post to that point in this thread was saying it isn't as simple as blame the GM for lack of players getting recognition. But, sure. You do you. 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, Jimmy Harris 69 said:

The Wacky world of Terry Pegula is responsible for the disconnect between Beane and McDermott. They both answer to Pegula, unlike other organizations where the coach answers to the gm. So Howie Roseman would not have a guaranteed SB here because he couldn’t order McDermott to hire a certain DC or OC the way he did in Philly this past year. 

 

I mean the GM and HC both reporting to the owner isn't all that uncommon in the NFL these days. It isn't the case in Philly, that is true, but Howie is more than just the GM. He is over the entire football operation. The Chiefs, Niners, Ravens, Chargers, Broncos to name a few all have a flat structures. 

[No_Matter_What]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

Question for all: If Howie Roseman was our GM, would McDermott have a Super Bowl by now?

My answer: Absolutely.

How you answer that question may help you realize how much of the blame you put on GM and how much you put on the coach.

 

Then again, Howie Roseman is a savant. He has 2 Super Bowls in the past 5 years with 2 different headaches and 2 different QB's, one of which was a backup.


 

Well you might be correct.

 

But even if you are correct, that doesn't mean much. So we know that one GM is better than Beane. He can still be the second best GM in the league.

 

To me, conversation about (replacing) Beane starts when you are sure that there are at least 6-7 GMs better. And I don't think that that is the case.

 

 

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

The Wilkins contract is, and was, ridiculous. I'd take Ed over him 100 times out of 100. Simmons is a stud, however. He slid in that draft for reasons other than ability.

I didn't watch many Raiders games this year because they're the Raiders.  Wilkins was the closest one to Oliver of the names mentioned but his production in Miami was better than Oliver's in Buffalo imo.  Similar pressure rate but Wilkins was the better run defender.  I'd take Oliver's contract over Wilkins though for sure.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

I didn't watch many Raiders games this year because they're the Raiders.  Wilkins was the closest one to Oliver of the names mentioned but his production in Miami was better than Oliver's in Buffalo imo.  Similar pressure rate but Wilkins was the better run defender.  I'd take Oliver's contract over Wilkins though for sure.

 

I disagree. I think Oliver is just a superior player. Wilkins resetting the DT market last year was lunacy. 

[Charles Romes]

Maybe Beane is playing 4D chess and trying to avoid top end talent.  Look at where all the top end talent has gotten the Bengals right now. Said no to metcalf. In terms of receiving targets I really think they are tying to have the best 1-10 targets in the league and the 20th best 1-3 targets.  They blow teams out by going after defenders covering targets 4-8. If they force fed Shakir like Diggs and he “broke out” for 1200 yard would we then have another top end talent player?  Who cost 30 instead of 15?

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

Maybe Beane is playing 4D chess and trying to avoid top end talent.  Look at where all the top end talent has gotten the Bengals right now. Said no to metcalf. In terms of receiving targets I really think they are tying to have the best 1-10 targets in the league and the 20th best 1-3 targets.  They blow teams out by going after defenders covering targets 4-8. If they force fed Shakir like Diggs and he “broke out” for 1200 yard would we then have another top end talent player?  Who cost 30 instead of 15?

We more than doubled Shakir’s targets and he had 200 more yards than last year.

 

thats why he cost only 15.

 

I think Beane would’ve been very happy for Shakir to have had 1400 yards instead.

[chongli]

10 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

I couldn't think of a better way to explain.   Side note I was very sure that story was bs but I think it was actually true wasn't it??

 

Yep.m, sure is. That's one reason they got a bad grade for ownership in the recent NFLPA survey. As the expression goes: Jets gonna Jet.

[cba fan]

53 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

Maybe Beane is playing 4D chess and trying to avoid top end talent.  Look at where all the top end talent has gotten the Bengals right now. Said no to metcalf. In terms of receiving targets I really think they are tying to have the best 1-10 targets in the league and the 20th best 1-3 targets.  They blow teams out by going after defenders covering targets 4-8. If they force fed Shakir like Diggs and he “broke out” for 1200 yard would we then have another top end talent player?  Who cost 30 instead of 15?

yes i agree w this sentiment........   i was always hoping none of the Bills get voted all pro as then they demand more money. Reuben Brown was the poster boy for this. Avg player, had a good year, voted all pro, then went every year on rep only. 

[Rigotz]

11 hours ago, Einstein said:

Question for all: If Howie Roseman was our GM, would McDermott have a Super Bowl by now?

My answer: Absolutely.

How you answer that question may help you realize how much of the blame you put on GM and how much you put on the coach.

 

Then again, Howie Roseman is a savant. He has 2 Super Bowls in the past 5 years with 2 different headaches and 2 different QB's, one of which was a backup.


 

It’s incredible how little people know about Howie Roseman. Look up his first 7 seasons with the Eagles. He was awful in the draft, including taking Jalen Reagor over Justin Jefferson. Then, he nailed a bunch of picks that frankly fell to him in the draft and everyone is fawning over him as a “savant.”

 

No GM is perfect and even though we don’t like to admit it, there’s a lot of luck involved. Beane is a good GM. He has proven that over and over in every category other than getting a little more lucky in the draft.

[FireChans]

33 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

It’s incredible how little people know about Howie Roseman. Look up his first 7 seasons with the Eagles. He was awful in the draft, including taking Jalen Reagor over Justin Jefferson. Then, he nailed a bunch of picks that frankly fell to him in the draft and everyone is fawning over him as a “savant.”

 

No GM is perfect and even though we don’t like to admit it, there’s a lot of luck involved. Beane is a good GM. He has proven that over and over in every category other than getting a little more lucky in the draft.

Howie wasn’t picking players the entire time he was there lol.

 

Reid and Chip both had their moments where they were in charge of personnel.

[Mr. WEO]

Beane doesn't coach the team to double digit wins and an AFCE title...then fall apart in the playoffs.

 

isn't "top 100" voted by players?