Is McD compensating for Beane Part #2?

[Mikie2times]

Largely, McD tends to be a much bigger target around here than Beane. Which is what prompted me to create the thread below. 

 

Again, I feel the Beane hype train is off the tracks a bit. The main points of contention seem to be how much high end talent do we have and how much is Josh influencing our talent? While not perfect I tried to answer some of that below as a follow up to the original thread.

 

Pro Football reference tracks the NFL top 100, All Pro, and Pro Bowl teams on its site. The nice thing being its capturing far more players than the usual single team lists. That is a result of pro bowl alternates being included, first team All Pros, second team All Pro's, and multiple all pro teams from different news outlets. As an example how I'm looking at this, the Bills had two Pro Bowl nods from Cook, one from McGovern last year, Benford as an All Pro etc...

 

So while most of you think none of these things happened, some of them did depending on how Pro Football Reference is capturing it. Which also leads to a much bigger pool of players/ more accuracy in the results 

 

All in all in the two years it lead to the following accolades (which could be received by a single player as many as two times)

 

Pro Bowl: 215 

All Pro: 152 

Top 100: 200

 

The Bills are in a 3 way tie with the Jets and Vikings at 19 total. The vast majority of these contributions have come on the offensive side of the ball. 

 

 

The Bills are tied for 26th with 3 other teams in the same category for defense. 

 

 

This is about where I expected this to fall. Which sort of leaves us in the exact same place where we started. Our overall rankings are better than average but well below the top 5. The last two years of AFC and NFC championship games are made up of only teams with a total score of 25+ with the exception being Buffalo and the Redskins.  Nearly all of that contribution is coming on the side of the ball Allen plays on. How much influence does Allen have on Cook and some of our offensive lineman? A decent amount from my view. While Allen covers for everybody to some extent, I would argue McD has done more with less when you look at the best performing teams in the NFL. Those teams just have better players, yet we still keep matching the wins. So again, is that McD or Allen or both? Not sure. But I'm more confident in saying it can't be Beane. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Mikie2times

[GunnerBill]

So I do, and long have, fallen more on the side of we lack elite difference makers rather than "our coaches are the problem." Ultimately players are more important than coaches, always have been, always will be. 

 

However, it is fair to say that there are always two parts to pro bowl, all pro, top 100 type recognition and that is usage as well as talent. Again I lean to the latter being more important than the former but im setting the context for the discussion I think it is important to put that out there.

Edited 2 hours ago by GunnerBill

[DJB]

Tyler Huntley was a Pro Bowler.

 

Let’s not get worked up over this. 

[co_springs_billsfan]

17 minutes ago, DJB said:

Tyler Huntley was a Pro Bowler.

 

Let’s not get worked up over this. 

[colin]

out of all of those categories, i'd say the all pro column is the most representative.  if we go by that then i think it's about right.  the up

side is allen and lately our Oline are so very good enough we can beat all the teams some of the time and most of the teams most of the time.  i'd put that at about 70# and 30# OL.

 

the upside is 3 extra all pro performers matches our roster with the top 4 or 5, and with allen in the mix it's a wrap for the NFL.

 

what's missed in this (or maybe not, maybe all that does matter is the real studs you have, i'm kinda on the fence tho) is how rapp and benford go down and we have literally the worst secondary in the NFL last season, and cooper isn't right and we are bottom 8 at WR.  bottom 12 if we include TEs and consider that kinkaid was a walking stiff all season.

 

patching up those holes will help us win games like the afc chip we lost in KC i think, but shipping in that CB who left GB (as an example) might throw in an all pro and solve a couple problems all at once.

 

we win a chip this season if beane has a draft like kc did in 2022, and we are laughing, or it's literally the same results and another wasted year of record setting NFL allen's talent, and frankly i think beane gets walked out the door.

 

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

Both things are true.  Beane hasn't brought in enough elite talent around Josh and Mcd is prone to getting outclassed by the best coaches in the league. 

 

I think while we lack very high end talent we're full near the top of the league in good players.  Groot is an example.   Good to very good, not elite.  A bit hard to explain,  requires a bit of nuance.   In madden terms we have a lot of guys in the 80's but few in the 90's.

[Steve Billieve]

I mean, it is worth considering that mcbeane have a locker room philosophy that they believe can result in sustained success.

 

I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise.

 

Obviously that costs some amount of natural talent, but I would also say at the same time their focus is developing talent. We see a lot of high ceiling people brought in here including Josh.

 

Also, the whole thing is silly. These guys are working with each other, and by all appearances are in lock step. Decisions are team decisions and we're just not in the room.

[FireChans]

43 minutes ago, DJB said:

Tyler Huntley was a Pro Bowler.

 

Let’s not get worked up over this. 

Doesn’t that make it low key kind of worse?

[chongli]

14 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

n madden terms we have a lot of guys in the 80's but few in the 90's.

 

Now wait...who do you think you are? Woody Johnson?!

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

Largely, McD tends to be a much bigger target around here than Beane. Which is what prompted me to create the thread below. 

 

Again, I feel the Beane hype train is off the tracks a bit. The main points of contention seem to be how much high end talent do we have and how much is Josh influencing our talent? While not perfect I tried to answer some of that below as a follow up to the original thread.

 

Pro Football reference tracks the NFL top 100, All Pro, and Pro Bowl teams on its site. The nice thing being its capturing far more players than the usual single team lists. That is a result of pro bowl alternates being included, first team All Pros, second team All Pro's, and multiple all pro teams from different news outlets. As an example how I'm looking at this, the Bills had two Pro Bowl nods from Cook, one from McGovern last year, Benford as an All Pro etc...

 

So while most of you think none of these things happened, some of them did depending on how Pro Football Reference is capturing it. Which also leads to a much bigger pool of players/ more accuracy in the results 

 

All in all in the two years it lead to the following accolades (which could be received by a single player as many as two times)

 

Pro Bowl: 215 

All Pro: 152 

Top 100: 200

 

The Bills are in a 3 way tie with the Jets and Vikings at 19 total. The vast majority of these contributions have come on the offensive side of the ball. 

 

 

The Bills are tied for 26th with 3 other teams in the same category for defense. 

 

 

This is about where I expected this to fall. Which sort of leaves us in the exact same place where we started. Our overall rankings are better than average but well below the top 5. The last two years of AFC and NFC championship games are made up of only teams with a total score of 25+ with the exception being Buffalo and the Redskins.  Nearly all of that contribution is coming on the side of the ball Allen plays on. How much influence does Allen have on Cook and some of our offensive lineman? A decent amount from my view. While Allen covers for everybody to some extent, I would argue McD has done more with less when you look at the best performing teams in the NFL. Those teams just have better players, yet we still keep matching the wins. So again, is that McD or Allen or both? Not sure. But I'm more confident in saying it can't be Beane. 

 

 

 

 

Grigson and Pagano.

 

Pagano was a better HC than Grigson was a GM but Grigson nailed the QB pick 

[BuffAlone]

Not an excuse,but drafting at 25-30 every single year,you can hit or miss easily. Overall, Beane is pretty good. A better GM than talent evaluator at times,but name me a better GM the last 20 years that's called Buffalo home? When your very first draft pick is JA17,you have some leeway

[PonyBoy]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

Largely, McD tends to be a much bigger target around here than Beane. Which is what prompted me to create the thread below. 

 

Again, I feel the Beane hype train is off the tracks a bit. The main points of contention seem to be how much high end talent do we have and how much is Josh influencing our talent? While not perfect I tried to answer some of that below as a follow up to the original thread.

 

Pro Football reference tracks the NFL top 100, All Pro, and Pro Bowl teams on its site. The nice thing being its capturing far more players than the usual single team lists. That is a result of pro bowl alternates being included, first team All Pros, second team All Pro's, and multiple all pro teams from different news outlets. As an example how I'm looking at this, the Bills had two Pro Bowl nods from Cook, one from McGovern last year, Benford as an All Pro etc...

 

So while most of you think none of these things happened, some of them did depending on how Pro Football Reference is capturing it. Which also leads to a much bigger pool of players/ more accuracy in the results 

 

All in all in the two years it lead to the following accolades (which could be received by a single player as many as two times)

 

Pro Bowl: 215 

All Pro: 152 

Top 100: 200

 

The Bills are in a 3 way tie with the Jets and Vikings at 19 total. The vast majority of these contributions have come on the offensive side of the ball. 

 

 

The Bills are tied for 26th with 3 other teams in the same category for defense. 

 

 

This is about where I expected this to fall. Which sort of leaves us in the exact same place where we started. Our overall rankings are better than average but well below the top 5. The last two years of AFC and NFC championship games are made up of only teams with a total score of 25+ with the exception being Buffalo and the Redskins.  Nearly all of that contribution is coming on the side of the ball Allen plays on. How much influence does Allen have on Cook and some of our offensive lineman? A decent amount from my view. While Allen covers for everybody to some extent, I would argue McD has done more with less when you look at the best performing teams in the NFL. Those teams just have better players, yet we still keep matching the wins. So again, is that McD or Allen or both? Not sure. But I'm more confident in saying it can't be Beane. 

 

 

 

 

 

I've said it before here, the amount of research & time some of the TBD'ers provide this board is truly amazing!

 

I've listened to Bills games via AM radio starting in 1973 or so on my dad's Sunday drives when games were blacked out as kids.

 

I literally don't think I've ever missed a Bills game via radio or TV in all of those years since.

 

I am a huge fan. But!

Some of you folks are truly incredible or ....demented 😀

 

Thank you!

Another informative post. 

 

 

[Don Otreply]

I would ask this question, 

 

Are all HCs compensating for their GMs in one fashion or another, and could it be that GMs are compensating for their HCs…, Me, I’d bet that it goes in both directions on a regular basis, 

[Alphadawg7]

If you go back and look at all the SB winners, they are not made up of all pro bowlers.  Team make up is what matters most.  How many pro bowlers on our OL?  Yet its one of the best in football.  How you put players on the field that fit your scheme, compliment the other players, etc all matters more than just adding talent.   

 

And Beane, while admittedly hasn't landed "elite" guys often, he is one of the best GM's in football at finding good to very good players, quality starters, quality depth, etc all over the draft, through affordable free agents, via trade, etc. 

 

The results are the highest scoring offense over the past 5 seasons, all time great offense this season, 2nd most wins to only KC over the past 5 years, 2 AFCCG's, 5 straight division titles, and a perennial SB contender.  And we were a ref screw job away from getting to the SB this year.  

All coaches and GM has flaws, misses, etc.  I feel like people talk about ours expecting perfection as the only acceptable thing.  

[stuvian]

We have not had a dominating defender in the Beane era. We've had more hits than misses and are building a winning culture but tackling and pass rushing continue to be areas of concern 

[BillsFanForever19]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

However, it is fair to say that there are always two parts to pro bowl, all pro, top 100 type recognition and that is usage as well as talent. 

 

There are times when I wonder if sometimes there's a bit of a disconnect between Beane and McDermott on players brought in. Or a disconnect between how McDermott views talent compared to others.

 

Take Poona Ford for example. McDermott wouldn't even let him on the field. He was a pretty solid 1T before he got here. And then when he left, he blew up for the Chargers. Just signed a 3 year, 60m deal with the Rams. Yet he couldn't sniff the field for us?

 

We trade for Amari Cooper. And while I think the injured wrist was the biggest issue, he wasn't used NEARLY as much as he should have been. Mike Edwards (again, injury issue early in Training Camp) was brought in as a potential starter. Asked for his release bc he couldn't see the field.

 

There's been other strange instances where McDermott has underutilized players brought in or played less talented guys more than he should have. Ultimately, it's hard to complain with the results the team has had. But his usage of players is at times befuddling and bizarre.

[Einstein]

Question for all: If Howie Roseman was our GM, would McDermott have a Super Bowl by now?

My answer: Absolutely.

How you answer that question may help you realize how much of the blame you put on GM and how much you put on the coach.

 

Then again, Howie Roseman is a savant. He has 2 Super Bowls in the past 5 years with 2 different headaches and 2 different QB's, one of which was a backup.


 

[QLBillsFan]

BB on the whole has been a very solid GM. In particular on the O side of the ball. The D has simply not got it done to support the HOF QB with 5 prime years left.  Many misses (BB) and is this D approach viable (McD) to create a SB championship🤷🏻‍♂️.. both own it 50/50. Conventional thought has been 90-10 McD’s fault. It’s closer to 50/50 as per OP. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 hour ago, chongli said:

 

Now wait...who do you think you are? Woody Johnson?!

I couldn't think of a better way to explain.   Side note I was very sure that story was bs but I think it was actually true wasn't it??

[Since1981]

6 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

he ball. The D has simply not got it done to support the HOF QB with 5 prime years left

Agreed. I wonder what it would look like D with a game wrecker Watt in prime as counterweight to O with 17. I’d love Bosa to be that but …