Wr usage

[oldmanfan]

Saw a rumor Cooper may want to retire

[chris heff]

47 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

He was banged up first and didn’t mind being a complementary piece regardless.  Besides, it’s their offensive identity now to spread ball around. Solidified with personnel decision/priorities. 
 

People forget Cooper’s downfield catches versus KC in regular season. Sustained drives that ended in scores.  Wouldn’t have won without him.

I thought Samuel had a big day against KC.

[The Cincinnati Kid]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

C'mon Kid, this is what we fans do.  We criticize GMs, coaches, coordinators, players.  We sign up for all that when we join the Mafia.  

 

And while none of us can match an NFL coach or scout in terms of knowledge, they do sometimes feed us fodder.  For example, Beane for all his brilliance made Elam a first-round pick.  He was criticized by some on this board at the time and his critics were right. 

 

I, personally, think it's fair to criticize Brady for his use of wide receivers thus far.   If you disagree, present your case.  Don't make ad hominen attacks against the poster you disagree with.   That doesn't prove anything, doesn't make the board a fun place, and you're better than that. 

Ok. A few things…

 

We have had this conversation and it’s silly. So there is that. 

 

Joe Brady throws exactly 0 (zero) passes in the season. 
 

The goal of a passing play, any passing play, is to put eligible receivers in areas of the field or in matchups where they will be open to catch a pass. Eligible receivers are WRs, TEs, RBs, FBs, and sometimes OLs.
 

Allen (who does throw the passes) completed 63.6% of passes thrown to eligible receivers. 
 

Most fans get so obsessed about “a number 1 receiver” or “can Brady scheme our WRs open?” That isn’t the point. The point is to use the whole group of eligibles to stress the defense and find the open player.

 

I was a Varsity OC for several seasons, which is nowhere near what the Bills and Brady are doing, but it’s not nothing. We ran a spread O and didn’t give a hoot about anything other than Identifying our BEST matchup pre and post snap and completing that pass. An offense is most successful when they take easy yards. 
 

So, as KirbyJackson pointed out somewhere, if the Bills had a guy on the outside like JaMarr Chase then Allen would likely go there more because we would win outside more. As the Bills are currently constructed our best eligible receivers aren’t alphas on the outside. We have Shakir, Ty Johnson, Kincaid, etc. who win their matchups inside and against backers and we take those wins. 
 

*Who* catches the ball doesn’t matter. That the ball is caught and progresses up the field is what matters. Hence “everyone eats.”

 

Does that satisfy the requirement to present an argument, @hondo in seattle?

[NoSaint]

7 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

The goal of OC is points and yards and limiting turnovers not “WR production”. People are so obsessed with wide receivers it gets old.  The bills broke their team record for points per game…building the running game was the right thing to do.  Always more talent is better but WR is not the make or break for this team ultimately winning.  

had Josh gotten hurt for real in that first Baltimore game it would’ve ended the season 

 

not having a guy that could stress defenses outside or deep definitely elevates that risk… adding that guy reduces impacts in Josh and makes us a tougher matchup. 
 

That’s not to say it’s the only thing but it’s an important element 

[Matt_In_NH]

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

had Josh gotten hurt for real in that first Baltimore game it would’ve ended the season 

 

not having a guy that could stress defenses outside or deep definitely elevates that risk… adding that guy reduces impacts in Josh and makes us a tougher matchup. 
 

That’s not to say it’s the only thing but it’s an important element 

lol ok

[Thrivefourfive]

I’m glad Brady avoided getting the ball to some of our receivers. 

[colin]

the only thing that fixes this, the TE/WR issue, with what we have on the roster (unless palmer or coleman or someone just pulls a moulds and explodes into being a top flight wr out of nowhere) is Kinkaid gets healthy and we just punish everyone for having a single LB on the field, which feeds into (it did very well last season, but it would have to be like olympic level) us just running the ball at will and winning TOP and chewing up the field.

 

an actual bonafide outside threat with consistency on this offense would set NFL passing and scoring records.  I suppose we can draft one, but other than that we should be about what we were, which was simply outstanding except vs houston and baltimore.  an all pro CB, hits on DL draft picks, and the guys we signed this offseason being above contract value would mean the d is top 5 again and we host the afc chip game.

[BuffBillsForLife]

What usage?

[JoshAllin]

With Mack gone I dont see why they wouldnt bring in coop, or is it because he's one of the top ranked free agents in the league

[hondo in seattle]

8 hours ago, The Cincinnati Kid said:

Ok. A few things…

 

We have had this conversation and it’s silly. So there is that. 

 

Joe Brady throws exactly 0 (zero) passes in the season. 
 

The goal of a passing play, any passing play, is to put eligible receivers in areas of the field or in matchups where they will be open to catch a pass. Eligible receivers are WRs, TEs, RBs, FBs, and sometimes OLs.
 

Allen (who does throw the passes) completed 63.6% of passes thrown to eligible receivers. 
 

Most fans get so obsessed about “a number 1 receiver” or “can Brady scheme our WRs open?” That isn’t the point. The point is to use the whole group of eligibles to stress the defense and find the open player.

 

I was a Varsity OC for several seasons, which is nowhere near what the Bills and Brady are doing, but it’s not nothing. We ran a spread O and didn’t give a hoot about anything other than Identifying our BEST matchup pre and post snap and completing that pass. An offense is most successful when they take easy yards. 
 

So, as KirbyJackson pointed out somewhere, if the Bills had a guy on the outside like JaMarr Chase then Allen would likely go there more because we would win outside more. As the Bills are currently constructed our best eligible receivers aren’t alphas on the outside. We have Shakir, Ty Johnson, Kincaid, etc. who win their matchups inside and against backers and we take those wins. 
 

*Who* catches the ball doesn’t matter. That the ball is caught and progresses up the field is what matters. Hence “everyone eats.”

 

Does that satisfy the requirement to present an argument, @hondo in seattle?

 

That's much better.  Thanks, Kid!  

 

When I look at All-22  (or breakdowns by Warner, Sims, et al), I don't see any glaring problems with Brady's schemes.  In fact, it seems like he's running a lot of the same plays - or same type of plays - as other teams.   And again, I do find it sticking in my throat a bit when I criticize an OC who averaged 30.9 ppg in his first full season with us.  Obviously, something good is happening.  

 

Yet a few things feel off to me.  For example, Digg's, Samuel's, and Coop's per game production all went down under Brady.  So did Allen's.  And as a casual observer it seems like our downfield passing game stuggles more than it should given in the talent we have (i.e. average-ish receiving corps/elite QB).

 

When I dream about football, I dream that we have one of those happy coincidences where we happen to have a generational QB like Allen married up with a passing game genius like Sid Gillman, Don Coryell, or Bill Walsh.  Brady isn't that.  Not even close.  Not yet.  

[The Cincinnati Kid]

32 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

That's much better.  Thanks, Kid!  

 

When I look at All-22  (or breakdowns by Warner, Sims, et al), I don't see any glaring problems with Brady's schemes.  In fact, it seems like he's running a lot of the same plays - or same type of plays - as other teams.   And again, I do find it sticking in my throat a bit when I criticize an OC who averaged 30.9 ppg in his first full season with us.  Obviously, something good is happening.  

 

Yet a few things feel off to me.  For example, Digg's, Samuel's, and Coop's per game production all went down under Brady.  So did Allen's.  And as a casual observer it seems like our downfield passing game stuggles more than it should given in the talent we have (i.e. average-ish receiving corps/elite QB).

 

When I dream about football, I dream that we have one of those happy coincidences where we happen to have a generational QB like Allen married up with a passing game genius like Sid Gillman, Don Coryell, or Bill Walsh.  Brady isn't that.  Not even close.  Not yet.  

2024 - 491 Rush Attempts (Brady)

(2023 - Skipped due to OC Change)

2022 - 430 Rush Attempts (Dorsey)

2021 - 461 Rush Attempts (Daboll)

 

Diggs was falling off. Kincaid and Shakir out paced him through the last 10-11 games of 2023. Cooper was not the same guy he was a few years ago and played through a wrist injury basically from the day he got here. Samuel was injured all season and had his best season with Brady as Carolina’s OC. We do not have and have not had a true speed threat (outside of MVS who also wasn’t good). 
 

The only way to win football games, outside of dreams, (or any team sport contest) is to accurately evaluate the players you have available and then put them in positions to be successful. Sometimes that’s Ty Johnson against a linebacker. 
 

IT DOESN’T MATTER WHO CATCHES THE BALL AS LONG AS IT IS CAUGHT.

 

The conversation about if Brady can get the ball to the WRs is just so siloed and glaringly wrong. The point is to win the rep. If that means Shakir on whip route for 8 yards then that’s great. If it means a deep ball to Gabe Davis, fine. That works, too.

 

You can only throw to Jefferson or Chase if you got them. Buffalo doesn’t. We have guys who are tough for defenders to matchup against. They’re just not the X. 

[Kelly to Allen]

10 hours ago, The Cincinnati Kid said:

Ok. A few things…

 

We have had this conversation and it’s silly. So there is that. 

 

Joe Brady throws exactly 0 (zero) passes in the season. 
 

The goal of a passing play, any passing play, is to put eligible receivers in areas of the field or in matchups where they will be open to catch a pass. Eligible receivers are WRs, TEs, RBs, FBs, and sometimes OLs.
 

Allen (who does throw the passes) completed 63.6% of passes thrown to eligible receivers. 
 

Most fans get so obsessed about “a number 1 receiver” or “can Brady scheme our WRs open?” That isn’t the point. The point is to use the whole group of eligibles to stress the defense and find the open player.

 

I was a Varsity OC for several seasons, which is nowhere near what the Bills and Brady are doing, but it’s not nothing. We ran a spread O and didn’t give a hoot about anything other than Identifying our BEST matchup pre and post snap and completing that pass. An offense is most successful when they take easy yards. 
 

So, as KirbyJackson pointed out somewhere, if the Bills had a guy on the outside like JaMarr Chase then Allen would likely go there more because we would win outside more. As the Bills are currently constructed our best eligible receivers aren’t alphas on the outside. We have Shakir, Ty Johnson, Kincaid, etc. who win their matchups inside and against backers and we take those wins. 
 

*Who* catches the ball doesn’t matter. That the ball is caught and progresses up the field is what matters. Hence “everyone eats.”

 

Does that satisfy the requirement to present an argument, @hondo in seattle?

 

 

I mean this is what Brady did for 20 years. It's highly sustainable 

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, The Cincinnati Kid said:

2024 - 491 Rush Attempts (Brady)

(2023 - Skipped due to OC Change)

2022 - 430 Rush Attempts (Dorsey)

2021 - 461 Rush Attempts (Daboll)

 

Diggs was falling off. Kincaid and Shakir out paced him through the last 10-11 games of 2023. Cooper was not the same guy he was a few years ago and played through a wrist injury basically from the day he got here. Samuel was injured all season and had his best season with Brady as Carolina’s OC. We do not have and have not had a true speed threat (outside of MVS who also wasn’t good). 
 

The only way to win football games, outside of dreams, (or any team sport contest) is to accurately evaluate the players you have available and then put them in positions to be successful. Sometimes that’s Ty Johnson against a linebacker. 
 

IT DOESN’T MATTER WHO CATCHES THE BALL AS LONG AS IT IS CAUGHT.

 

The conversation about if Brady can get the ball to the WRs is just so siloed and glaringly wrong. The point is to win the rep. If that means Shakir on whip route for 8 yards then that’s great. If it means a deep ball to Gabe Davis, fine. That works, too.

 

You can only throw to Jefferson or Chase if you got them. Buffalo doesn’t. We have guys who are tough for defenders to matchup against. They’re just not the X. 

 

It matters who and where your receivers are on the field.  They got away for the first 3 weeks last season throwing it largely, by scheme, into the middle without a very good boundary receiver.  Then Baltimore and Houston games clarified that you must attack outside the hash marks and make a defense defend the entire field.  

 

Or, your QB gets his hand injured having to run it in Week 1 and later his head bounced off the turf from a huge DLineman destroying him.  

 

McBeane enter 2025 with Palmer and maybe Coleman as their boundary receivers provided no one else is signed.  

 

I make no assumptions this offense maintains or improves their production.  And even if Brady improves his play design and calling, the receiver talent is worse now than at the end of last season.  And that limits what you can do.  

[machine gun kelly]

On 3/14/2025 at 11:27 PM, bills11 said:

We signed Joshua Palmer now, and probably Will look to add another wideout in the draft , but one thing that has been concerning to me after it now looks like we've moved on from Amari Cooper is Joe Brady's ability to use WR's in the passing game.

 

While I understand cooper may have lost a step I still believe he was capable of contributing alot more than he's shown..we saw a similar massive dip ( third of the production he did under dorsey ) with Stefon diggs once Brady took over. 

 

While the offence as a whole has been greatly productive one of the major weaknesses has been production at tight end and wr..the only game this past season where we saw a heavy involvment of wrs and tight ends in the passing attack was the lions games which was just a perfect game on offence. WR's and tight ends to multiple games with barely a catch in this offence and we know Josh is capable of more as we've seen in his seasons under the tutelage of Daboll.

 

What you don’t seem or want to understand is Brady is smart, and he was dealt a hand where he had no WR’s who can get separation the first half of the year, thinks he may have an opportunity in Cooper, but as you stated lost a step.  So he calls games scheming guys open closer to the LOS to move the chains.  Brady doesn’t pick the talent nor can magically heal Samuel’s turf toe.

 

Brady made the best out of a bad situation, and I imagine begged Beane for WR’s who can separate and received one in Palmer, and most likely will draft another.  Beane then picks up a bunch of talent on defense in free agency to fill needs.  Now they have latitude with their 10 draft picks to bundle picks, get a great DT alternating with Jones, a CB2, and any other holes they have.  I’m guessing with the two 6th rd picks we pick up a developmental QB we groom over the next four years and a kicker.  That leaves 8 picks higher, some very high for the positions addressed above.

[Man with No Name]

i agree it's more about the talent. But to those who say "well, we had teh no. 2 offense." 

our no.2 offense is kind of like those top 5 defenses we had. Don't get me wrong, our offense is not falling apart in the playoffs the way our defneses do.

 

 but it's similar in that they are still missing something. Those guys who can give you the Madden type plays on demand are pretty useful when the chips are down in big moments. It's something different than just being able to chip away with a workman like 30 per game.