Kaiir Elam traded to Cowboys

[Warcodered]

With this move you have to think they have something worked out at CB.

[Alphadawg7]

13 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Every franchise has an Elam level bust at least once in the last 5 years. It's disappointing but not crippling. It does become a real problem if you stack consecutive 1st round busts. We need a lot more from Kincaid and Coleman starting this year. If those two bust right after Elam then Beane will have some very difficult questions to answer.

 

I agree with you about how all GM's have these kinds of busts periodically...and everything else you said, although I will add it can be crippling if the bust is a higher profile player like a QB, especially if they made a big investment to move up to get them.  

 

But, Kincaid and even Keon are way ahead of where Elam ever got already and far from busts.  Kincaid had the 4th most receptions and 10th most yards all time in the NFL for a rookie TE for example.  He may not have become the next Kelce as a receiving weapon yet, but he is far from a bust already.  Keon already showed more as a rookie than someone who would be labeled a "bust" too.  

 

So I am just saying its pretty hard from them to bust in a fashion like Elam given what they have already done on the field.  

[Maine-iac]

Correct me if I'm wrong or if this has already been gone over but if we cut him we would have been on the hook for 4 mil but trading him we are only on the hook for a small (relatively) part of that?

[gonzo1105]

3 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Correct me if I'm wrong or if this has already been gone over but if we cut him we would have been on the hook for 4 mil but trading him we are only on the hook for a small (relatively) part of that?

Yea release no money saved, trade 2.5 mill saved 

[Magox]

I would think that the Bills won't be bringing back Rasul and Kaiir we know isn't coming back.  I would think the odds of signing a CB is very high via FA and most likely a draft pick or two more at the position.

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

This debacle is one of the few examples where I think our coaching staff absolutely screwed up a player's development.

 

In his last game he was an utterly scared, confused mess, which he wasn't as a rookie.

He was a worse player when he left here than he was when we drafted him.

This was draft day (with hindsight).  WTF happened in the war room to warrant that kind of miscommunication?! Was McD in the bathroom?  Did we have a trade down put together, and last minute somebody backed out?  Did an assistant manger or another staffer have a MAJOR drop of the ball that lead to this?  I actually feel bad for Elam for us wasting 4 years.  Maybe he just sucks, but seemed to have the  right attitude.  Puzzling every which way, maybe we'll hear in a book in 20years.

 

Im a Beane maximalist, but this and AJE puzzle me.  Bringing in a guy with a skillset (or frame with AJE), and the plan is to tear him down completely and ask him to do something completely different.

 

Major gripe of mine.  The way people hate hearing about ST's around here is how I hate the "versatile" label we're obsessed with.  "A jack of all trades, is a master of none".  Give me a guy who specializes at one thing, especially at the NFL level.  Torrence comes to mind.  Sure find you a guy or two on each side of the ball like that... but seeing that word "versatile" come up continually with our roster building is annoying.

[Joe Marino]

Takes a bit of humility to cut your losses like that, but Beane needed that cap!

[BillsShredder83]

8 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Dane Jackson is an aggressive, physical CB if he is allowed to be.

He has no problems with fighting you in a phone booth and teh only thing that will make him passive is the scheme.

Sincere question.  Where are you seeing this in his game? Have to go back to his Pitt days?  I think he was hurt all year in CAR

[DrDawkinstein]

9 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

With this move you have to think they have something worked out at CB.

 

I mean, throw a tackling dummy out there if we're looking to improve

[GaryPinC]

24 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

I don't understand this entire saga with Elam. The coaches do not have a track record of being unduly harsh on any player. To think that they essentially tortured Elam, the fan base and themselves by holding on to him seems out of character. 

Something doesn't add up for me. Perhaps you see more than I do?

One big component on this defense is risk aversion and a thought process for how to execute that.  I suspect this is where Elam struggled.  When you see a DB with his physical talents relegated to playing like a covering safety in the AFCCG, you know he's lost in the scheme and maybe not from being unusually harsh but from a minimum of constantly having to correct him.  He may never be able to stick in the league but seemed incredibly ill suited for what the coaches wanted him to do.  I'm happy he has another chance, we'll see how much our coaching/scheme weighed him down.  He's certainly not the brightest bulb either, so good luck to him.

[folz]

Approximating according to the draft value chart:

 

Dallas' 5th round pick is about 23 points

Buffalo's 6th round pick (if it's our 2nd or 3rd 6th rounder, not our first 6th rounder) is ~ 9 points

A 7th round pick (about where Dallas should be picking next year) is ~ 1 point

 

So, Bills value in the trade is about 15 points total, which equates to a 6th round pick (like 14th pick of the 6th round---or like pick 190 overall for Elam). Not bad value for a player that just didn't work out (despite where he was drafted).

 

 

There may be more to it than this, but he just never seemed to get comfortable in zone coverage (which we have been dominant in for most of his career) and was still a bit too handsy in man-to-man coverage. Hopefully he can turn his career around in Dallas. A change of scenery and a better defensive fit may help. He's seems like a good kid. And despite how poorly things were going for him, he never seemed to make a big stink or cause any issues.

 

Side note: Kaiir's dad played for Dallas for two years (including his rookie season).

 

 

 

 

[MiracleAtRich1393]

1 hour ago, TFBillsfan said:

Not that Elam was the answer but we have major holes currently at CB with Elam and Rasul gone. 

And a buttload of day 3 picks (which we've had great success spending on DBs). I'm totally fine with this

[Logic]

13 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

With this move you have to think they have something worked out at CB.

Feels like the sum of whats left out there ranges from baseline safe signing (Dane Jackson or Levi Wallace), to upside guys looking for fresh starts (Jeff Okudah, Benjamin St Juste) to more "premium" names like Asante Samuel Jr or Rasul Douglas.

Will be interesting to see which route the Bills go. 

Wouldn't surprise me if they're letting Douglas test his market and he ultimately doesn't get what he thinks he's worth and he comes back to Buffalo on a one year deal.

Edited 11 hours ago by Logic

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, JMM said:

Finally! They gave this kid more chances than I would have. I wanted him traded before last season.  A fifth is a good return all in all. Just a big whiff by Beane. It happens. Have to wonder if CB might not be our first pick now.

I know when McDuffie came off the board, BB probably panicked a little.  Too bad his few scouts didn't steer him toward Karlaftis as insurance for AJE.  Elam will join a long list of 1st round busts.  A 5th is better than nothing.  Maybe we use that pick to find a hungry CB like Benford. 

[DrDawkinstein]

5 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

This was draft day (with hindsight).  WTF happened in the war room to warrant that kind of miscommunication?! Was McD in the bathroom?  Did we have a trade down put together, and last minute somebody backed out?  Did an assistant manger or another staffer have a MAJOR drop of the ball that lead to this?  I actually feel bad for Elam for us wasting 4 years.  Maybe he just sucks, but seemed to have the  right attitude.  Puzzling every which way, maybe we'll hear in a book in 20years.

 

Im a Beane maximalist, but this and AJE puzzle me.  Bringing in a guy with a skillset (or frame with AJE), and the plan is to tear him down completely and ask him to do something completely different.

 

Major gripe of mine.  The way people hate hearing about ST's around here is how I hate the "versatile" label we're obsessed with.  "A jack of all trades, is a master of none".  Give me a guy who specializes at one thing, especially at the NFL level.  Torrence comes to mind.  Sure find you a guy or two on each side of the ball like that... but seeing that word "versatile" come up continually with our roster building is annoying.

 

WRT draft day...

 

I'll start by saying that, looking at the next 10, or even 15, picks there isnt anyone we obviously missed out on. I wanted Linderbaum or Dax Hill, but our OL is great and Hill hasnt panned out either. Not sure anyone expected Karlaftis to be as good as he has been either. Late 1st round in 2022 was a tough spot to be in.

 

I absolutely think the Chiefs took us by surprise when they traded up and stole McDuffie. I know Beane has said otherwise in the media, but he says what he HAS to say, not the truth.

The Chiefs caught us off-guard and there wasnt enough time to put together any trade down, and Elam was the panic pick to fill the need, and hope for the best.

[Rigotz]

8 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

This was draft day (with hindsight).  WTF happened in the war room to warrant that kind of miscommunication?! Was McD in the bathroom?  Did we have a trade down put together, and last minute somebody backed out?  Did an assistant manger or another staffer have a MAJOR drop of the ball that lead to this?  I actually feel bad for Elam for us wasting 4 years.  Maybe he just sucks, but seemed to have the  right attitude.  Puzzling every which way, maybe we'll hear in a book in 20years.

 

Im a Beane maximalist, but this and AJE puzzle me.  Bringing in a guy with a skillset (or frame with AJE), and the plan is to tear him down completely and ask him to do something completely different.

 

Major gripe of mine.  The way people hate hearing about ST's around here is how I hate the "versatile" label we're obsessed with.  "A jack of all trades, is a master of none".  Give me a guy who specializes at one thing, especially at the NFL level.  Torrence comes to mind.  Sure find you a guy or two on each side of the ball like that... but seeing that word "versatile" come up continually with our roster building is annoying.

 

I see what you're going for here, but I don't agree.

 

AJ Epenesa had a ton of production in college, but they figured he had a few extra pounds and if they could shred him, he'd potentially be the best of both worlds - powerful and fast. The problem is he lost all his power. He's still a relatively capable player though, so wouldn't qualify as a bust.

 

Elam is a flat out bust, but blaming it on draft day shenanigans isn't accurate. The "Big Board" is created waaaaay before draft day and Elam wouldn't magically jump up their board 50-100 spots because of something that happened in the 20 picks before him. It was obviously just bad scouting and bad evaluation to figure a guy with elite physical talents and (allegedly) really good study habits can't figure out how to play zone.

[Sestak4ever]

31 minutes ago, Ennjay said:

Does anyone else remember Reuben Gant?  Or Eric Flowers?  Or Tom Ruud?

Or Walt Patulski or Tom Cousineau?

[MasterStrategist]

23 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't know. The coaching staff was seemingly totally unprepared for the possibility that a recently concussed CB might get knocked out of the game. If Elam looked like a nervous wreck in that game, that was a direct reflection of his coaches. They were intimidated and not able to handle any kind of adversity.

We gave up 11 point the entire 2nd half....I don't think coaching was the issue.

 

And Elam was playing off coverage, bc he gets too grabby and slow recovery with his footwork.  

 

Elam became a headcase because he couldn't get away with tugging WRs anymore at the NFL level.  And his instincts were never truly his calling card.

 

Bills thought they could coach away the grabiness.  Just a case of scouting not hitting on this pick.

[appoo]

Kid had both measurables and tape in the SEC to back up his spot in the first round. Sucks that it didn't worl out, but luck is a huge variable in the NFL draft

[first_and_ten]

17 minutes ago, Magox said:

I would think that the Bills won't be bringing back Rasul and Kaiir we know isn't coming back.  I would think the odds of signing a CB is very high via FA and most likely a draft pick or two more at the position.

 

Let's hope Beane doesn't make the same mistake he made when drafting Elam. Reaching for a need.