Russia beat us?

[All_Pro_Bills]

26 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

I think that as long as trump is in power, that's where we are headed.  Europe doesn't trust trumpski.  I don't think Canada or Mexico do or most of the rest of the world at this point.  he'll likely withdraw from NATO anyway.  Our strongest alliance then becomes the one with the murderous, barbaric russian regime.

 

here's some Bman or NC level sensationalist journalism but if even part is correct, it explains much of what we are seeing.

https://www.mind-war.com/p/stop-being-shocked

Its not all that black and white. This isn't some contest between the big bad Russians and Boy Scout Troop Europe. There are plenty of murderous, barbaric regimes Washington work with when the circumstances require that of us. Agencies like MI6 and the CIA are not handing out cookies and tooth brushes to widows and orphans in Africa. Look at all the US corporations set up in China to save a few pennies exploiting cheap and sometimes slave labor with their Chinese partners. What about the Saudi's. They're experts at publicly beheading executions of "criminals" Those ISIS chaps we supported to take over Syria. Islamic terrorists looking to create a Sharia state, watch and wait for it.

We dealt with Russia after the break-up of the Soviet Union up until 2014 when Ukraine suddenly became important. When the Maidan coup was performed to remove an elected President that wouldn't play ball with the US and Western Europe over NATO and the EU. This all will be more closely examined by people with intimate knowledge of events. But it really got going after the Clinton campaign, along with FBI, Fusion GPS, and numerous political leaders along with media outlets manufactured and ran with the Russia hoax. Historians should have a field day creating the story of these times.

[AlBUNDY4TDS]

14 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Departure.  Leave the land you invaded.  Then we have peace.  It’s very simple, actually. 

Then don’t embolden him, like we are. 

Lol how? By refusing to keep throwing money down a well. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

28 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Its not all that black and white. This isn't some contest between the big bad Russians and Boy Scout Troop Europe. There are plenty of murderous, barbaric regimes Washington work with when the circumstances require that of us. Agencies like MI6 and the CIA are not handing out cookies and tooth brushes to widows and orphans in Africa. Look at all the US corporations set up in China to save a few pennies exploiting cheap and sometimes slave labor with their Chinese partners. What about the Saudi's. They're experts at publicly beheading executions of "criminals" Those ISIS chaps we supported to take over Syria. Islamic terrorists looking to create a Sharia state, watch and wait for it.

We dealt with Russia after the break-up of the Soviet Union up until 2014 when Ukraine suddenly became important. When the Maidan coup was performed to remove an elected President that wouldn't play ball with the US and Western Europe over NATO and the EU. This all will be more closely examined by people with intimate knowledge of events. But it really got going after the Clinton campaign, along with FBI, Fusion GPS, and numerous political leaders along with media outlets manufactured and ran with the Russia hoax. Historians should have a field day creating the story of these times.

yes, the US has engaged in plenty of bad stuff.  Some of it is covert but necessary.  All global powers need intelligence that can only be obtained this way.  But we also have checks and balances and for now, democratically elected officials.  And actually, until recently, the US was handing out toothbrushes and cookies in Africa as well as health care and vaccinations.  trump and musk nixed all that and red states have systematically removed most of the cringeworthy US history from textbooks.  The saudis and middle easterners have been tolerated but monitored and at times admonished (but not by trump.  Kashoghi was no big deal to him and the LIV golf tour is making money).  The Israelis are far from lily white but we theoretically hold some sway through financial and military support.

 

So, yes, national morality is a matter of degree.  And it largely depends on who is president.  And history will judge this president and the people who enabled him harshly.  And for what it's worth, we should be teaching kids about our historical mistakes so that they aren't repeated.

 

Finally, do you see Stalin and Churchill as morally equivalent?   They both had covert forces and were involved in morally ambiguous decisions...

Edited Monday at 03:31 PM by Joe Ferguson forever

[Doc]

46 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

confirmation.  now they have it.  this is the undoing of a peacekeeping, mutually beneficial alliance since ww2.  they needed to be sure before giving up on it.   I think they're pretty sure...

 

Of what?

[All_Pro_Bills]

34 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

yes, the US has engaged in plenty of bad stuff.  Some of it is covert but necessary.  All global powers need intelligence that can only be obtained this way.  But we also have checks and balances and for now, democratically elected officials.  And actually, until recently, the US was handing out toothbrushes and cookies in Africa as well as health care and vaccinations.  trump and musk nixed all that and red states have systematically removed most of the cringeworthy US history from textbooks.  The saudis and middle easterners have been tolerated but monitored and at times admonished (but not by trump.  Kashoghi was no big deal to him and the LIV golf tour is making money).  The Israelis are far from lily white but we theoretically hold some sway through financial and military support.

 

So, yes, national morality is a matter of degree.  And it largely depends on who is president.  And history will judge this president and the people who enabled him harshly.  And for what it's worth, we should be teaching kids about our historical mistakes so that they aren't repeated.

 

Finally, do you see Stalin and Churchill as morally equivalent?   They both had covert forces and were involved in morally ambiguous decisions...

Some good points and things to contemplate. While we don't agree I appreciate the civility of our conversation. There are many grey areas and we have different perspectives.

 

For me, this entire conflict never made any sense. I just don't see Ukraine as ever having any strategic value to the U.S. and for the life of me wonder why we ever got involved. Without the U.S. and Western Europe pushing for Ukrainian EU and NATO membership, removing an elected President in 2014 that opposed both, installing a more favorable government in his place, and heavily arming Ukraine this conflict would never have happened. There would not have been a Russian invasion. I don't see any value to our interests to participate in an exercise of isolating Russia which is now NATO's only mission. If Russia was to directly threaten us, our ability to respond is clearly superior to their abilities. But here we are. Its a mess we need to extricate ourselves from at the best possible terms.

 

Given his temper tantrum and belligerent behavior, running off to Europe to curry favor and acquire their condemnations of the Trump administration, I'll be surprised if Zelensky lasts through the end of March. Either he's going to be deposed by a military tired of the conflict or on queue through some clandestine or other action of the US administration. He's an actor that believes the delusional he's actually the character he's playing. He'll soon retire in comfort at an Italian villa paid for by US taxpayer siphoned off our aid monies where he'll write a book or two on the conflict. The new guy will be more receptive to our interests which with a new administration, have changed since 2014.

 

I don't see the European nations or their citizens having the ambition or desire to get directly involved in the conflict and little details like incurring casualties and deaths. After 80 years of pacifism, more or less letting America do all the heavy lifting, I'm guessing this dog won't hunt. British PM Starmer and other leaders talk a good game but that's likely all it is. And in the unlikely event they actually follow through and get their countries into this fight and incur lots of casualties I'm guessing their political careers will come to a screeching halt before long. Simply Zelensky can't survive without Washington's support and Europe can't defend itself without America either. They're both delusional if they think they're going to go it alone or defy Washington.

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

46 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Of what?

don't be opaque.  It's ugly.  Of the European/US allegiance....as I wrote

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

don't be opaque.  It's ugly.  Of the European/US allegiance....as I wrote

 

Do you see any conflict of interest with Europe being reliant on Russian fossil fuels, which send more money to Russia than they're loaning to Ukraine?

[Joe Ferguson forever]

Just now, Doc said:

 

Do you see any conflict of interest with Europe being reliant on Russian fossil fuels, which send more money to Russia than they're loaning to Ukraine?

asked and answered.  you're not acting as a gadfly but rather a chigger.

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

asked and answered.  you're not acting as a gadfly but rather a chigger.

 

Where?  When?

[Motorin']

13 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

This is what happens when globalism infects your country.  
 

 

 

Checks Starmer's footnotes: Boots on the ground and planes in the air, only in the event that Russia breaks a ceasefire agreement. Secondary note: and only if the US commits to boots on the ground and planes in the air... 

[SectionC3]

38 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Checks Starmer's footnotes: Boots on the ground and planes in the air, only in the event that Russia breaks a ceasefire agreement. Secondary note: and only if the US commits to boots on the ground and planes in the air... 

ultimately this is what it’s going to take to resolve.  This is the point Zelenskyy raised immediately before the oval blowup - what’s the guarantee of we take the deal,  because Putin can’t be trusted.  There’s still no answer to the question.  
 

that piece, I think, is fixable.  Don is a businessman and this stuff happens in negotiations.  He’ll make Ukraine grovel, and at some point there could be a deal.  The bigger issue is future relations with traditional allies.  They now do not trust us because of stuff like this. 

[Motorin']

27 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

ultimately this is what it’s going to take to resolve.  This is the point Zelenskyy raised immediately before the oval blowup - what’s the guarantee of we take the deal,  because Putin can’t be trusted.  There’s still no answer to the question.  
 

that piece, I think, is fixable.  Don is a businessman and this stuff happens in negotiations.  He’ll make Ukraine grovel, and at some point there could be a deal.  The bigger issue is future relations with traditional allies.  They now do not trust us because of stuff like this. 

 

Here's an alternative hypothesis. Russia invaded Ukraine due to real national security threats that they take seriously. Threats born in the Obama administration, carried out under Hillary Clinton's State Department. 

 

So the real guarantee of peace is removing the threats to Russia.  No NATO for Ukraine. No missile defense systems East of the Dnipro. And a DMZ buffer zone between Russia and Ukraine. 

 

Now to the issue of the allies not trusting the US. They're liberal globalist leaders are parroting Democrat talking points. Don't care. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

53 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Now to the issue of the allies not trusting the US. They're liberal globalist leaders are parroting Democrat talking points. Don't care

 

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

Here's an alternative hypothesis. Russia invaded Ukraine due to real national security threats that they take seriously. Threats born in the Obama administration, carried out under Hillary Clinton's State Department. 

 

So the real guarantee of peace is removing the threats to Russia.  No NATO for Ukraine. No missile defense systems East of the Dnipro. And a DMZ buffer zone between Russia and Ukraine. 

 

Now to the issue of the allies not trusting the US. They're liberal globalist leaders are parroting Democrat talking points. Don't care. 

What threats would those be? 

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

so you believe putin could be trusted as an ally?

[Motorin']

2 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

so you believe putin could be trusted as an ally?

 

Not really, but I don't trust Zelensky either. 

 

I think he's becoming fanatical, and would rather drag the world into war than budge an inch. 

 

The problem as I see it, the left around the world has applied their form of identity politics onto the war. The Ukrainian flag in one's profile signifies at once you're progressive, anti-racist, pro-science, pro-woman, pro-equality, pro-freedom and pro-democracy.

 

Of course you can be all of those things and be against this war and in favor of negotiated peace. But that's how the left's virtual signalling works. If you're not pro-Ukraine to the death of Russia than you're anti-all of those things. 

 

I relaying this to you as someone who was adamantly against the Iraq invasion. I detested George W. Bush and the way his government owned the US media and their surrogates around the world. 

 

And I think control of US media spin has swung in the opposite direction, in control of a democrat / neo-con convergence. And I think it stinks as bad as it did under Bush. 

[Niagara Bill]

6 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Here's an alternative hypothesis. Russia invaded Ukraine due to real national security threats that they take seriously. Threats born in the Obama administration, carried out under Hillary Clinton's State Department. 

 

So the real guarantee of peace is removing the threats to Russia.  No NATO for Ukraine. No missile defense systems East of the Dnipro. And a DMZ buffer zone between Russia and Ukraine. 

 

Now to the issue of the allies not trusting the US. They're liberal globalist leaders are parroting Democrat talking points. Don't care. 

Now this is a line of bs.

Trump says the Canada conservative leader isn't maga enough. Why would anyone in Canada want to ge maga. Is he king? He wants the fight.

Trump is about to take full control, and Mark this on your calendar, troups on Canadian soil by fall of 26. Putin gets Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Estonia, keeps Europe busy as trump takes Canada. There is no 51st. Just a conquest like Puerto Rico. 

No 26 mid terms. Trump's office took over the Federal election commission. 

 

You stopped cyber ops in Russia, this week, they get their sanction money back by May/June or conflict will occur. You will soon see the spots on trump, the true direction. It will become clear to US citizens very soon. IMHO.

 

[Albwan]

4 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

Now this is a line of bs.

Trump says the Canada conservative leader isn't maga enough. Why would anyone in Canada want to ge maga. Is he king? He wants the fight.

Trump is about to take full control, and Mark this on your calendar, troups on Canadian soil by fall of 26. Putin gets Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Estonia, keeps Europe busy as trump takes Canada. There is no 51st. Just a conquest like Puerto Rico. 

No 26 mid terms. Trump's office took over the Federal election commission. 

 

You stopped cyber ops in Russia, this week, they get their sanction money back by May/June or conflict will occur. You will soon see the spots on trump, the true direction. It will become clear to US citizens very soon. IMHO.

 

Its coming ..this time its definitely for real!!

been coming since 2016...still waiting

[njbuff]

Just now, Albwan said:

Its coming ..this time its definitely for real!!

been coming since 2016...still waiting

The “Art the Clown” pic you have always kills me.

 

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣