If the Chiefs offered their 2nd round pick for James Cook would you make the trade?

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I said yes, just to watch this place burn lol

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

 

The stats you referenced make the case for keeping Cook. Snaps by McCafrey and Saquon makes them more vulnerable especially with their injury history. You neglected to mention since 2020 McCafrey has played in 44 games.  Shaquan averages under 13 games a season. You might catch lightning in a bottle and get a monster season like this year for Saquon or last season for Christian but then lose them and kill your season. Cook is 25 and doesn’t miss games. The Bills transitioned to a run heavy offense and had a monster season with Cook, Ty Johnson and Davis without a #1 or #2 receiver. With Cook you’re set at RB for the rest of Josh’s contract.  He caught 38 balls in the passing game and scored 16 TDs. You’re willing to let him walk and take a flyer on a rookie or a 2nd tier retread when the cap just increased. Thank goodness you just play GM on the message board. You’re also assuming Cook can’t improve pass blocking when he’s physically tough enough to score 16 TDs.

 

 

I see. 

 

So you're saying that availability is a super power and very important. But that playing a lot is a bad thing because it might lead to injury.

 

Man, I've heard some dumb arguments, but that's right up there. Availability is important because it lets you play a lot. Not because you get to spend more time on the bench watching the games than the guys who are back at TBD in the rehab facilities.

 

And no, I didn't neglect to mention games. You'd already mentioned it. I pointed out that snaps are what is important. Duh. What matters is how many plays you are on the field. You can only make a difference on the field. From the bench, you don't make a difference. Unless you feel that Cook's cheering and clapping are so energetic and encouraging that they're a weapon in themselves?  Do you think a guy on the bench makes an impact like the guy on the field?

 

On the plays when Cook is healthy but not good enough to be on the field ahead of Ty Johnson or Ray Davis, he does the team exactly as much good on that snap as does the long snapper sitting next to him. Cook is more explosive than any other RB we have. But on snaps when the RB might need to pass block as a third-down back or try to smash his way in short yardage, he gets pulled and gets a chance to try out his cheering skills.  But Barkley and McCaffrey stay on the field because it's within their skill sets.

 

Barkley's total snaps in his first three years:  1647

McCaffrey's total snaps in his first three years:  2751

Cook's total snaps in his first three years:  1388

 

Barkley's total snaps in the last three years:  2374

McCaffrey's total snaps in the last three years:  1756

Cook's total snaps in the last three years:  1388

 

Barkley's average snaps per year for his whole career:  647.7

McCaffrey's average snaps per year for his whole career:  618.75

Cook's average snaps per year for his whole career:  462.6

 

You want a guy who will be available, both in terms of health and in terms of being the best guy on the team to be out there in all situations, you take Barkley and McCaffrey over Cook. It's that simple. McCaffrey and Barkley have simply been out there more often.

 

And again, I like Cook. A lot.

 

But does he rank up there with the highest paid guys in the league? You are the one who started talking about how important availability is. Cook hasn't been available in terms of being out on the field as those other two. That's why he won't get their money, in my opinion, and why the Bills shouldn't pay him that much, again in my opinion. I want football players to be confident as hell. I think it's fine that he wants that kind of money and that he asks for it. But that doesn't mean the Bills should give him what he asks for.

 

Or at least not unless he starts getting on the field and producing the way the big boys do. At 190, I don't think it likely he'll ever be a guy who gets a ton of snaps the way that McCaffrey does at 210 or Barkley at 232. Still a guy you want on your team, though, all being equal.

 

 

But things aren't equal. Some guys get paid more. Some less. Some too much, and that's what you want to stay away from.

 

Edited yesterday at 07:16 AM by Thurman#1

[HamptonBillsfan]

7 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I see. 

 

So you're saying that availability is a super power and very important. But that playing a lot is a bad thing because it might lead to injury.

 

Man, I've heard some dumb arguments, but that's right up there. Availability is important because it lets you play a lot. Not because you get to spend more time on the bench watching the games than the guys who are back at TBD in the rehab facilities.

 

And no, I didn't neglect to mention games. You'd already mentioned it. I pointed out that snaps are what is important. Duh. What matters is how many plays you are on the field. You can only make a difference on the field. From the bench, you don't make a difference. Unless you feel that Cook's cheering and clapping are so energetic and encouraging that they're a weapon in themselves?  Do you think a guy on the bench makes an impact like the guy on the field?

 

On the plays when Cook is healthy but not good enough to be on the field ahead of Ty Johnson or Ray Davis, he does the team exactly as much good on that snap as does the long snapper sitting next to him. Cook is more explosive than any other RB we have. But on snaps when the RB might need to pass block as a third-down back or try to smash his way in short yardage, he gets pulled and gets a chance to try out his cheering skills.  But Barkley and McCaffrey stay on the field because it's within their skill sets.

 

Barkley's total snaps in his first three years:  1647

McCaffrey's total snaps in his first three years:  2751

Cook's total snaps in his first three years:  1388

 

Barkley's total snaps in the last three years:  2374

McCaffrey's total snaps in the last three years:  1756

Cook's total snaps in the last three years:  1388

 

Barkley's average snaps per year for his whole career:  647.7

McCaffrey's average snaps per year for his whole career:  618.75

Cook's average snaps per year for his whole career:  462.6

 

You want a guy who will be available, both in terms of health and in terms of being the best guy on the team to be out there in all situations, you take Barkley and McCaffrey over Cook. It's that simple. McCaffrey and Barkley have simply been out there more often.

 

And again, I like Cook. A lot.

 

But does he rank up there with the highest paid guys in the league? You are the one who started talking about how important availability is. Cook hasn't been available in terms of being out on the field as those other two. That's why he won't get their money, in my opinion, and why the Bills shouldn't pay him that much, again in my opinion. I want football players to be confident as hell. I think it's fine that he wants that kind of money and that he asks for it. But that doesn't mean the Bills should give him what he asks for.

 

Or at least not unless he starts getting on the field and producing the way the big boys do. At 190, I don't think it likely he'll ever be a guy who gets a ton of snaps the way that McCaffrey does at 210 or Barkley at 232. Still a guy you want on your team, though, all being equal.

 

 

But things aren't equal. Some guys get paid more. Some less. Some too much, and that's what you want to stay away from.

 

This mindless snap count argument has no connection to a players value especially when a player like McCafrey played in 41 of 85 games the last 5 years. The Bills in the 3 years with Cook have won 37 games. Value to a team is production with his opportunities to help a team win. 207 carries for over a 1000 yards and when Cook got carries in the red zone he scored 16 TDs leading the league. In the pass game he’s got 97 receptions. The RBs that are paid more than Cook are much older and have played with the Giants and Carolina and Indy. The last 3 seasons the Niners won 31 games. You’re oblivious to a players production in relation to wins. Saquon when he played most of his career had huge amounts of carries because the Giants stunk and had a bad QB and receivers. That’s why they let him walk.Why pay a great back to lose games anyway. McCafrey, when he actually got on the field, got loads of carries that resulted in losses. Saquon was great for one season and Philly gave 21 million a year. Cook is 25 and probably could demand 42 or 44 million for a 3 year deal. The Bills will be silly not to sign him despite your ridiculous arguments discrediting his value. This will conclude my involvement with this colossal waste of time.  First it’s blocking and then snap count, no mention of wins and production. You don’t let the best draft choice since Josh and 2nd best player on your team leave when you’re averaging over 12 wins a year genius.

[SCBills]

24 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

This mindless snap count argument has no connection to a players value especially when a player like McCafrey played in 41 of 85 games the last 5 years. The Bills in the 3 years with Cook have won 37 games. Value to a team is production with his opportunities to help a team win. 207 carries for over a 1000 yards and when Cook got carries in the red zone he scored 16 TDs leading the league. In the pass game he’s got 97 receptions. The RBs that are paid more than Cook are much older and have played with the Giants and Carolina and Indy. The last 3 seasons the Niners won 31 games. You’re oblivious to a players production in relation to wins. Saquon when he played most of his career had huge amounts of carries because the Giants stunk and had a bad QB and receivers. That’s why they let him walk.Why pay a great back to lose games anyway. McCafrey, when he actually got on the field, got loads of carries that resulted in losses. Saquon was great for one season and Philly gave 21 million a year. Cook is 25 and probably could demand 42 or 44 million for a 3 year deal. The Bills will be silly not to sign him despite your ridiculous arguments discrediting his value. This will conclude my involvement with this colossal waste of time.  First it’s blocking and then snap count, no mention of wins and production. You don’t let the best draft choice since Josh and 2nd best player on your team leave when you’re averaging over 12 wins a year genius.

 

2nd Best Player on the Team?

 

Josh Allen

Dion Dawkins

Spencer Brown

Christian Benford

 

All 4 of those guys are in consideration for Top 3 player at their position.   And all are at premium positions.

 

And the fact Cook is horrible in pass pro and not great at pass catching has to factor into contract negotiations.  If he wants to be paid anything close to 15M per, he can't be a liability on 3rd down.

 

I'd acknowledge a case can be made that Cook is in consideration for Top 5 RB.. but a lot of that is due to how Brady deployed him as opposed to just overall greatness. 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by SCBills

[HamptonBillsfan]

29 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

2nd Best Player on the Team?

 

Josh Allen

Dion Dawkins

Spencer Brown

Christian Benford

 

All 4 of those guys are in consideration for Top 3 player at their position.   And all are at premium positions.

 

And the fact Cook is horrible in pass pro and not great at pass catching has to factor into contract negotiations.  If he wants to be paid anything close to 15M per, he can't be a liability on 3rd down.

 

I'd acknowledge a case can be made that Cook is in consideration for Top 5 RB.. but a lot of that is due to how Brady deployed him as opposed to just overall greatness. 

 

If you’re putting Benford and Brown as 2nd best over Cook you shouldn’t be allowed to post anymore. Benford is one concussion away from being out of football. and he’s just ok. Consideration for top 3 at their position by who, you? Not great at pass catching by whose standards. He had 39 catches and had 16 TDs and 1000 yds. Should I remind you Josh was sacked 14 times, least in his career. How do you quantify horrible in pass protection.  He’s replaced on 3rd down according to Josh, by the best 3rd down back in football. It’s ok to use multiple backs in today’s NFL. Baltimore, KC, Cinn, La,GB all do it. Do you think just because you throw crap on the wall it makes for a good argument. You want to be a capologist or win games?” His greatness is an element of how Brady deploys him”? Do you realize how ridiculous that statement is?  1000 yds on 207 carries, 16 TDs 39 receptions on a 13 win team. It’s all about Brady, right.

[SCBills]

12 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

If you’re putting Benford and Brown as 2nd best over Cook you shouldn’t be allowed to post anymore. Benford is one concussion away from being out of football. and he’s just ok. Consideration for top 3 at their position by who, you? Not great at pass catching by whose standards. He had 39 catches and had 16 TDs and 1000 yds. Should I remind you Josh was sacked 14 times, least in his career. How do you quantify horrible in pass protection.  He’s replaced on 3rd down according to Josh, by the best 3rd down back in football. It’s ok to use multiple backs in today’s NFL. Baltimore, KC, Cinn, La,GB all do it. Do you think just because you throw crap on the wall it makes for a good argument. You want to be a capologist or win games?” His greatness is an element of how Brady deploys him”? Do you realize how ridiculous that statement is?  1000 yds on 207 carries, 16 TDs 39 receptions on a 13 win team. It’s all about Brady, right.

 

I'm not exactly on the pay Benford 20M+ train, but most people who follow this stuff would say Benford is absolutely going to command that and would be viewed as a top tier CB if he hits FA.

 

And Spencer Brown is absolutely a Top 3 RT.  

 

No, it's not ridiculous.  Brady plays Cook on 1st and 2nd downs, many times against light boxes.   He hides his weaknesses by rotating in Ty Johnson on passing downs.  

[HamptonBillsfan]

51 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

I'm not exactly on the pay Benford 20M+ train, but most people who follow this stuff would say Benford is absolutely going to command that and would be viewed as a top tier CB if he hits FA.

 

And Spencer Brown is absolutely a Top 3 RT.  

 

No, it's not ridiculous.  Brady plays Cook on 1st and 2nd downs, many times against light boxes.   He hides his weaknesses by rotating in Ty Johnson on passing downs.  

He hides his weaknesses by playing him on 1st and 2nd downs? If the guy is averaging 5 yds a carry wouldn’t defensive coordinators protect against the run with run defenses?  If he’s scoring 16 TDs wouldn’t they load boxes on the goal line?  Benford had 2 rapid fire concussions and when Tua had that situation people were saying he should retire. Who are these experts in personnel that say he’s a top tier corner?  I never heard that. His claim to fame is that he beat out Elam to start.You’re not negotiating Cook’s contract. Don’t denigrate his accomplishments with foolishness. 

[Doc Brown]

4 hours ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

If you’re putting Benford and Brown as 2nd best over Cook you shouldn’t be allowed to post anymore. Benford is one concussion away from being out of football. and he’s just ok. Consideration for top 3 at their position by who, you? Not great at pass catching by whose standards. He had 39 catches and had 16 TDs and 1000 yds. Should I remind you Josh was sacked 14 times, least in his career. How do you quantify horrible in pass protection.  He’s replaced on 3rd down according to Josh, by the best 3rd down back in football. It’s ok to use multiple backs in today’s NFL. Baltimore, KC, Cinn, La,GB all do it. Do you think just because you throw crap on the wall it makes for a good argument. You want to be a capologist or win games?” His greatness is an element of how Brady deploys him”? Do you realize how ridiculous that statement is?  1000 yds on 207 carries, 16 TDs 39 receptions on a 13 win team. It’s all about Brady, right.

I strongly disagree as they play close to 100% of the snaps and both should've been pro bowlers this year.  The dropoff between them and a potential rookie or free agent at their position is significantly more than if we were to draft a RB in rounds 2 or 3 to replace Cook.  There are a lot of exciting RB prospects that we can get on rookie contracts this draft on day 2.

[HamptonBillsfan]

10 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I strongly disagree as they play close to 100% of the snaps and both should've been pro bowlers this year.  The dropoff between them and a potential rookie or free agent at their position is significantly more than if we were to draft a RB in rounds 2 or 3 to replace Cook.  There are a lot of exciting RB prospects that we can get on rookie contracts this draft on day 2.

Why should Benford have been sent to the pro bowl. Was being 106th in solo tackles or was it the 2 interceptions he had or the 10 pass breakups. He also had 2 rapid fire concussions.  Your personnel decisions remind me of the decades of mediocrity we suffered through. It kills you that Cook was a great draft choice. He’s gotta go in favor of a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Very sad

[Doc Brown]

41 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

Why should Benford have been sent to the pro bowl. Was being 106th in solo tackles or was it the 2 interceptions he had or the 10 pass breakups. He also had 2 rapid fire concussions.  Your personnel decisions remind me of the decades of mediocrity we suffered through. It kills you that Cook was a great draft choice. He’s gotta go in favor of a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Very sad

We drafted three rb’s in the first round during the drought.  Lol.  What are you talking about?  Benford’s advanced coverage statistics were outstanding.  The concussion concern is real though and I pry wouldn’t extend him until next year.

 

[The Jokeman]

50 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

Why should Benford have been sent to the pro bowl. Was being 106th in solo tackles or was it the 2 interceptions he had or the 10 pass breakups. He also had 2 rapid fire concussions.  Your personnel decisions remind me of the decades of mediocrity we suffered through. It kills you that Cook was a great draft choice. He’s gotta go in favor of a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Very sad

Maybe him being the 6th best CB in coverage or being 5th best CB overall?

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/christian-benford/79181#gradesWidget

[BillsFanForever19]

No one is offering a 2nd for a Running Back on a 1 year deal who they'll have to pay $15m a year for. 

 

Running Backs don't get much in terms of trade value. Players on the last year of their contract don't get much in terms of trade value. And players who will cost a substantial amount for their position to retain take a hit in trade value, as well.

 

With Cook checking the box for all of those things, I don't see us getting much more than a 4th for him. A 3rd if we're really lucky.

Edited 10 hours ago by BillsFanForever19

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

This mindless snap count argument has no connection to a players value especially when a player like McCafrey played in 41 of 85 games the last 5 years. The Bills in the 3 years with Cook have won 37 games. Value to a team is production with his opportunities to help a team win. 207 carries for over a 1000 yards and when Cook got carries in the red zone he scored 16 TDs leading the league. In the pass game he’s got 97 receptions. The RBs that are paid more than Cook are much older and have played with the Giants and Carolina and Indy. The last 3 seasons the Niners won 31 games. You’re oblivious to a players production in relation to wins. Saquon when he played most of his career had huge amounts of carries because the Giants stunk and had a bad QB and receivers. That’s why they let him walk.Why pay a great back to lose games anyway. McCafrey, when he actually got on the field, got loads of carries that resulted in losses. Saquon was great for one season and Philly gave 21 million a year. Cook is 25 and probably could demand 42 or 44 million for a 3 year deal. The Bills will be silly not to sign him despite your ridiculous arguments discrediting his value. This will conclude my involvement with this colossal waste of time.  First it’s blocking and then snap count, no mention of wins and production. You don’t let the best draft choice since Josh and 2nd best player on your team leave when you’re averaging over 12 wins a year genius.

 

 

The only thing "mindless" about a snap count argument is that it completely destroys your argument.

 

Yes, the Bills have won 37 games with Cook. Because they're a good team. Duh. Cook has a part of that. But not as much of a part of it as McCaffrey and Barkley have for their teams wins. 

 

But the idea that the Bills won 37 games and the Niners only won 31 and that means Cook is better than McCaffrey? Dude, that's the kind of dumb idea you hear in the corridors of mental hospitals. You know who is much much much more germane to those numbers? The QBs of those two teams. Duh! Seriously, that's just stupid. Football is a team sport, and wins are team wins. Anyone pretending that wins are RB wins is showing he's nuts. By that standard, Saquon Barkley must suck. When in reality he's the best in the league. 

 

"Value to a team is production with his opportunities." Um, no. the idea's dumb. If that were true, a guy with five snaps who was pretty well in those five snaps would be someone we'd need to add. 

 

What you need is a guy who is on the field a lot. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a wonderful thing if a guy has a loud voice and a violent clap and stands on the bench and cheers loudly. Not as wonderful as a guy who the team values enough to get him out on the field a lot.

 

"This colossal waste of time," you say? Yup. Because your argument is dumb.

 

He's a very good player. But he's much more limited than those two. He isn't even the best on this team at pass blocking, which limits his usefulness. Again, he isn't even the best on the Bills at short yardage. And he appears to be maximized when appearing on the field on 42.8% of snaps.

 

If you think teams are going to pay $15M AAV for an RB who while healthy has been in on 42.8% of snaps, I think you're having a pipe dream.

 

Bad idea for the Bills to spend anywhere near that much on him. Hopefully we get him back at a much more reasonable price, probably somewhere around $10M. Which would still make him the #6 RB, behind McCaffrey, Jonathan Taylor, Saquon, Kamara and Josh Jacobs. 

 

That's about the right spot. Care to guess whether any of those five outside of McCaffrey are anywhere near as low in terms of snaps (chances to make a difference) as Cook? 

 

 

Edited 21 minutes ago by Thurman#1

[reddogblitz]

I didn't vote cuz there was no Not no, HELL NO option.

 

My theory on trading with KC is if it's for a player, say no and make him a bigger part of our offense.  If it's for draft picks, find out who they want to take, hang up the phone, and draft the player they want.