Defensive Tackle: Is it the Players or the System?

[Rubes]

16 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Yes he had his second decent season after he had his first right before he came here. Makes you wonder why most come here and have stinker seasons though 👍

 

Yep, kinda the whole point of the thread...

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

The DL football gods will never forgive us for taking Donte Whitner over Haloti Ngata. It's the curse of the Ngata.

Edited Wednesday at 10:51 PM by Coffeesforclosers

[Buffalo_Stampede]

11 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

The DL football gods will never forgive us for taking Dante Whitner over Haloti Ngata. It's the curse of the Ngata.

Kyle Williams happened.

[Richard Noggin]

7 hours ago, SCBills said:

1)  We have woefully underinvested in the position outside Ed Oliver and Daquan Jones (who we gave one too many contracts too).

 

2)  McDermott wants gap shooting/penetration style defense which requires more agile (typically smaller) DT's, which in turn also exposes our undersized linebackers and nickel corner to more punishment.

 

It seems to be a flawed scheme that has also been woefully underinvested in.

 

McDermott's scheme worked so well a few of his years in Carolina because they had ELITE talent at all levels of that defense.

 

But also, there's something about the way the Bills align up front, and rush, series-after-series, that seems predictable or at least not exactly cutting edge. 

 

7 hours ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

We play a scheme where we need big fatty DT(Ted Washington would be ideal) but can't afford the middle of the line destroyers. Daquan was one his first year here till he got hurt, Star was also very good until he was injured but most of the guys listed are smaller than what we need. This is why I want Dexter Lawrence so much, he is the guy whose talent matched our scheme needs 

 

I truly miss the old Wide-9 days of Jim Schwartz, and of course the Ted Washington days of Wade Phillips. Talented D-lines. Philly had incredible success against KC without ever blitzing, leveraging what looked to me like that wide spacing with DEs aligned outside OTs and even TEs, early and often. They exploited Kelce in pass pro, several times. That's awesome. 

 

In short, my answer is yes. It's the players and the system. 

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:35 AM by Richard Noggin

[Thrivefourfive]

11 hours ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

All those names have one thing in common: weak ass attempts at getting better at defensive tackle.

Bing again. Judging how we “build a defense” by how much capital we spend or invest on it is like spouting off about how great spaghetti is while you’re eating cereal. It’s got no code. 
 

Our problem is we can’t spot talent. And u think that’s a bad thing. 

[CSBill]

9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He didn’t play!

 

And that is a conundrum: Why didn't a guy who has had above-average success in two other places ever see the field in Buffalo? And the same with Tim Settle; he had a fantastic year in Houston. ????

[Pete]

Poona Ford puzzles me.  He had a great year for the Chargers.  We sure could of used him.  Settle had a decent year after leaving Buffalo.  Harrison Phillips has played great since leaving Buffalo

Edited Wednesday at 11:26 AM by Pete

[Buffalo_Stampede]

17 minutes ago, CSBill said:

 

And that is a conundrum: Why didn't a guy who has had above-average success in two other places ever see the field in Buffalo? And the same with Tim Settle; he had a fantastic year in Houston. ????

I’m not sure. I believe Rousseau would shift inside sometimes once Von Miller returned. They had Floyd, Rousseau, Von/Epenesa all out there. They were 4th in sacks that year so maybe they should focus on getting another Leonard Floyd type, it worked. Hard to complain.

 

 

We also had a a lot of DTs. Oliver, Settle, Phillips, Jones (when healthy), Linval Joseph, and Ford. We had a lot of DL. Ford seemed to be mostly insurance. When he did play he didn’t take anyone’s job.

 

[DCofNC]

15 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

2018 - QB A.J. McCarron, RB Chris Ivory, WR Jeremy Kerley, OT Marshall Newhouse, C Russell Bodine, DE Trent Murphy, DT Star Lotulelei, CB Vontae Davis, CB Phillip Gaines, S Rafael Bush.

 

2019 - RB Frank Gore, WR John Brown, WR Cole Beasley, TE Tyler Kroft, TE Lee Smith, OT Ty Nsekhe, OT LaAdrian Waddle, G John Feliciano, G Quinton Spain, C Mitch Morse, C Spencer Long, OLB Eli Harold, CB Kevin Johnson, CB E.J. Gaines, S Maurice Alexander, KR Andre Roberts.

 

2020 - RB Taiwan Jones, WR Stefon Diggs, OT Daryl Williams, DE Mario Addison, DT Quinton Jefferson, DT Vernon Butler, LB A.J. Klein, LB Tyler Matakevich, CB Josh Norman.

 

2021 - QB Mitchell Trubisky, RB Matt Breida, WR Emmanuel Sanders, WR Brandon Powell, TE Jacob Hollister, OT Bobby Hart, G Forrest Lamp, P Matt Haack.

 

2022 - QB Case Keenum, RB Duke Johnson, WR Jamison Crowder, WR Tavon Austin, TE O.J. Howard, OT David Quessenberry, G Rodger Saffold, G Greg Van Roten, DE Von Miller, DE Shaq Lawson, DT DaQuan Jones, DT Jordan Phillips, DT Tim Settle.

 

2023 - QB Kyle Allen, RB Damien Harris, WR Trent Sherfield, WR Deonte Harty, OT Brandon Shell, G David Edwards, G Connor McGovern, DT Poona Ford, DE/OLB Leonard Floyd, CB Cameron Dantzler, S Taylor Rapp.

 

2024 - QB Mitchell Trubisky, WR Curtis Samuel, WR Mack Hollins, OT La’el Collins, C Will Clapp, DE Casey Toohill, DT Austin Johnson, LB Nicholas Morrow, S Mike Edwards.

 

 

Most are cheap free agents in the primary wave of free agency. 

 

Star L and DaQuan Jones were the big swings, along with Ed Oliver 9th overall. 

 

Past that, it's been mostly minimum investment, and really since the cap tightened up so much in 2023 and 2024. 

 

 

If people really can read this list and go back and look at guys like Chris Ivory, who got gifted an oversized guaranteed contract and really think Beane is some sort of Wizard, y’all need to see better magicians.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

16 hours ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

We play a scheme where we need big fatty DT(Ted Washington would be ideal) but can't afford the middle of the line destroyers. Daquan was one his first year here till he got hurt, Star was also very good until he was injured but most of the guys listed are smaller than what we need. This is why I want Dexter Lawrence so much, he is the guy whose talent matched our scheme needs 

We passed on Dexter Lawrence, Simmons & Wilkens for Oliver looks like a horrible decision now. All 3 of those players are much better then Oliver especially Lawrence and Simmons. 

 

These mistakes can kill a team that's a player or 2 away from the ultimate goal of winning a Superbowl. McBeane is the problem here in my opinion a few years back I was begging for them to sign Trey Hendrickson and Hassan Reddick only to see them bypass them until the next off-season where they overspent on an old injury prone Von Miller. Von got more money then those 2 players combined that's awful management. It also lead to them reaching on bad picks like Epeneza and Boggie and to a degree Groot . We make those moves those 3 picks could've been used to strengthen other areas of the team like the skill positions or Corner or whatever group they wanted. 

 

I know hindsight is 20/20 but if I know these things sitting on my couch before hand this line would have Hendrickson, Simmons and Reddick right now on it and who knows who else is on this team and how many Superbowls we would've won because of these additions. 

 

At the end of the day do you see the ripple effect of such bad management as we used Draft picks, Cap Space and time and still have a average at best Dline. McBeane are the sole reason this team hasn't won the Superbowl there riding on the success of Josh Allen .

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, DCofNC said:

If people really can read this list and go back and look at guys like Chris Ivory, who got gifted an oversized guaranteed contract and really think Beane is some sort of Wizard, y’all need to see better magicians.

I agree - he is finally starting to get some scrutiny for his team building choices from some fans. 

[JP51]

18 hours ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

All those names have one thing in common: weak ass attempts at getting better at defensive tackle.

100%

[BarleyNY]

You can always find good rotational DTs in FA for a reasonable price. Finding a difference making DT there is another story. So unless you find a prospect that you think can be special, then it doesn’t really make sense to spend much draft capital on the position - especially since they often take years to develop.

Hopefully Beane has learned from the Star debacle. He was an excellent DT in Carolina except for his last season there when he was poor. For some reason Beane paid him like that season never happened. He rewarded us by repeating that last poor season and then getting even worse. I was angry the day I saw the contract and I am angry about it now. 

I loved the Oliver pick. Heck, I advocated for it on this site. But he’s turned out to be much more Robin than Batman. He’s got talent and can make an impact on a game, but he just can’t be “the guy”.

Rousseau is another Robin, but at least that was always my expectation. This DL needs one big difference making DE in the worst way. A Crosby, Garrett or Parsons would make an enormous difference to this team. I have no idea how they’re going to find one though. I expect another churn of solid FA DTs to round out the interior, but what they do at RDE is going to make or break this defense. 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

4 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

You can always find good rotational DTs in FA for a reasonable price. Finding a difference making DT there is another story. So unless you find a prospect that you think can be special, then it doesn’t really make sense to spend much draft capital on the position - especially since they often take years to develop.

Hopefully Beane has learned from the Star debacle. He was an excellent DT in Carolina except for his last season there when he was poor. For some reason Beane paid him like that season never happened. He rewarded us by repeating that last poor season and then getting even worse. I was angry the day I saw the contract and I am angry about it now. 

I loved the Oliver pick. Heck, I advocated for it on this site. But he’s turned out to be much more Robin than Batman. He’s got talent and can make an impact on a game, but he just can’t be “the guy”.

Rousseau is another Robin, but at least that was always my expectation. This DL needs one big difference making DE in the worst way. A Crosby, Garrett or Parsons would make an enormous difference to this team. I have no idea how they’re going to find one though. I expect another churn of solid FA DTs to round out the interior, but what they do at RDE is going to make or break this defense. 

The problem is now outside of a humongous trade for a Ace pass rusher how can anyone trust McBeane to finally pick the right guys? I'm having a very difficult time with this and I bet other Bills fans are thinking the same

16 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Kyle Williams happened.

Could've had both we did take McCargo that yr

[Not at the table Karlos]

23 hours ago, SCBills said:

1)  We have woefully underinvested in the position outside Ed Oliver and Daquan Jones (who we gave one too many contracts too).

 

2)  McDermott wants gap shooting/penetration style defense which requires more agile (typically smaller) DT's, which in turn also exposes our undersized linebackers and nickel corner to more punishment.

 

It seems to be a flawed scheme that has also been woefully underinvested in.

Why doesn’t he let them shoot gaps though? Phillips would get benched for shooting gaps and they rarely let Oliver do it. Seems they just want to make a mess of the LOS. 

16 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Kyle Williams happened.

Williams and Ngata would have been amazing. 

[BarleyNY]

55 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

The problem is now outside of a humongous trade for a Ace pass rusher how can anyone trust McBeane to finally pick the right guys? I'm having a very difficult time with this and I bet other Bills fans are thinking the same

 

I wish I could disagree with you. That really does seem to be the big flaw in just about any plan. 

[Buffalo716]

17 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

McDermott's scheme worked so well a few of his years in Carolina because they had ELITE talent at all levels of that defense.

 

But also, there's something about the way the Bills align up front, and rush, series-after-series, that seems predictable or at least not exactly cutting edge. 

 

 

I truly miss the old Wide-9 days of Jim Schwartz, and of course the Ted Washington days of Wade Phillips. Talented D-lines. Philly had incredible success against KC without ever blitzing, leveraging what looked to me like that wide spacing with DEs aligned outside OTs and even TEs, early and often. They exploited Kelce in pass pro, several times. That's awesome. 

 

In short, my answer is yes. It's the players and the system. 

 

Jim Schwartz defense was over aggressive in Buffalo that couldn't stop the run when it mattered 

 

All the sack numbers didn't mean anything when they were undisciplined when it mattered most 

 

Literally an Oakland raiders team with one of the worst offenses in the NFL put up 140 rushing yards and like 350 total with the season on the line

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 2/18/2025 at 2:38 PM, Rubes said:

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

The players. McDermott/Babich work with what they got. Beane needs to do a better job of obtaining elite talent, he’s done very well at getting the most out of B & C level players, but no true game changers. Ed Oliver could be that guy, but he is constantly drawing double teams. Adding an elite DT or even DE like Crosby/Garrett could transform this defense into something truly scary. 

[Richard Noggin]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Jim Schwartz defense was over aggressive in Buffalo that couldn't stop the run when it mattered 

 

All the sack numbers didn't mean anything when they were undisciplined when it mattered most 

 

Literally an Oakland raiders team with one of the worst offenses in the NFL put up 140 rushing yards and like 350 total with the season on the line

 

So true, but I'm really missing that wide-9 alignment I saw from Philly in the SB. Gave Mahomes fits (of course in part because of the talent running it).

[Kelly to Allen]

17 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

We passed on Dexter Lawrence, Simmons & Wilkens for Oliver looks like a horrible decision now. All 3 of those players are much better then Oliver especially Lawrence and Simmons. 

 

These mistakes can kill a team that's a player or 2 away from the ultimate goal of winning a Superbowl. McBeane is the problem here in my opinion a few years back I was begging for them to sign Trey Hendrickson and Hassan Reddick only to see them bypass them until the next off-season where they overspent on an old injury prone Von Miller. Von got more money then those 2 players combined that's awful management. It also lead to them reaching on bad picks like Epeneza and Boggie and to a degree Groot . We make those moves those 3 picks could've been used to strengthen other areas of the team like the skill positions or Corner or whatever group they wanted. 

 

I know hindsight is 20/20 but if I know these things sitting on my couch before hand this line would have Hendrickson, Simmons and Reddick right now on it and who knows who else is on this team and how many Superbowls we would've won because of these additions. 

 

At the end of the day do you see the ripple effect of such bad management as we used Draft picks, Cap Space and time and still have a average at best Dline. McBeane are the sole reason this team hasn't won the Superbowl there riding on the success of Josh Allen .

 

 

 

None of those guys are better than Oliver. Oliver is as explosive as it gets from a 3 tech archetype. The problem is a formidable NT