Defensive Tackle: Is it the Players or the System?

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

Given the defenses speed over size approach, 4-2-5 base, you would think an elite one tech could transform the entire defense. Imagine our run defense being solidified. LB's being more clean. Ed left to penetrate. This has been a major fail by leadership from what I can see. In times when Jones has played well, early on with Star, and even when Joseph was signed it was clear that role can really make an impact. 

Tremaine Edmunds ..... could not stop what was coming outside of the tackles even with his sideline to sideline speed cuz he was so late to recognize. If they funneled the run through the A gap he picked the B too soon.

LBs gotta match this D line well regardless. Bills LBs + can do that now

Just need better play in between the tackles perhaps

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Tremaine Edmunds ..... could not stop what was coming outside of the tackles even with his sideline to sideline speed cuz he was so late to recognize. If they funneled the run through the A gap he picked the B too soon.

LBs gotta match this D line well regardless. Bills LBs + can do that now

Just need better play in between the tackles perhaps

 

I still chuckle when I think of the fans who thought we should re-sign Edmunds. He just doesn't have good instincts and it was obvious to some of us that if he didn't have them by the time his contract was up here, he wasn't ever going to have them. Give me a Matt Milano any day over the physical freak Edmunds is.  He has the physical gifts to be an all pro every year, but he just doesn't have the football IQ to know what's going on around him. He's not even the best LB on the Bears.

[machine gun kelly]

Well, it’s obvious we’ve missed the mark on DT.  Oliver has flashed at times, but very inconsistent.  Daquan is getting old.  This draft is deep at DT.  We may be trading top picks for Garrett or Crosby, but we can grab DT’s in the draft.

Edited Wednesday at 12:21 AM by machine gun kelly

[CSBill]

4 hours ago, Rubes said:

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

This is a legitimate and fair question.
 

I’m starting to lean towards a systems problem. But I don’t have enough defensive line acumen to know exactly what the problem is; other than, it seems to be perpetually none-effective. 

[Don Otreply]

The answer is very likely both, 

We stress containment on defense more than most anything else, our guys mostly do what they are coached to do, with varying degrees of success, 

[CSBill]

4 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

DT is the red headed step child compared with DE since they  overpaid for Star and drafted Ed Oliver …decisions made 6 years ago …

 

I don’t get why they haven’t tried to draft a 1T to develop since Harrison Phillips in 2018

Who, like Ford and Settle, has done really well somewhere else. 

[Aussie Joe]

7 minutes ago, CSBill said:

Who, like Ford and Settle, has done really well somewhere else. 

What did they do ?  Improve yes … but I still would aspire to better 

Edited Wednesday at 12:41 AM by Aussie Joe

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, Mat68 said:

Oliver has been solid. Imo Beane prioritized 3 tech not 1 tech.  Mcdermott played the Star because the importance 1 tech has on the front 7 run defense.  Beane has used b to c level FA to fill the role.  They have shuffled different players through.  Get Ed a big mfer to force attention and create disruption.  

Unfortunately even Ed & DQ have had way too many uninspiring performances. It's very telling to see guys like Ford/ Settle leave and play better.  Unfortunately for the most part our DT's have been Jagelicious.

[strive_for_five_guy]

Maybe it was just me, but I loved having a guy like Linval Joseph, other than the fact it was for half a season and he was effectively near the end of his career.  Too bad we never draft guys like that.

[Maine-iac]

The whole idea that the line has to not only pass rush like they're only job is to pass rush but also hold up against the run while we play light boxes behind it is (in my opinion) a major contributor to this problem.  We've had impressive seasons from DT's.  Kyle Williams, Jordan Phillps (2019), and Oliver have all had good seasons under McDermott but being susceptible to teams that run the ball well is almost a staple.  That said it was usually great coverage behind it and a calculated weakness.  this year was frustrating because the coverage behind it was didn't hold up in almost any of the games we played and we either created a turnover or they scored.

[notpolian]

In addition to a bigger and better 1T, we need a bigger MLB with range.

[T.E.]

5 hours ago, SCBills said:

2)  McDermott wants gap shooting/penetration style defense which requires more agile (typically smaller) DT's, which in turn also exposes our undersized linebackers and nickel corner to more punishment.

I remember when we tried this back around 2006 when we replaced productive fat guys like Sam Adams and Pat Williams with faster DTs like Larry Tripplett and John McCargo

 

Same results as now. Guys who cannot beat blocks and penetrate.

[CircleTheWagons99]

System and DT because we have high Caliber guys playing out of position because McD is playing his own game while everyone else plays chess.....

[colin]

13 minutes ago, notpolian said:

In addition to a bigger and better 1T, we need a bigger MLB with range.

 

we have that in dorian williams (bigger than our other guys, if not a big MLB, but he's super physical)

 

mcd gets way too married to his system and his guys at times, the real problem is DE.  we've dumped so much into DE that there just isn't much left at DT, and what we have done for DT have been more miss than hit (star, who had just ungodly talent and really prolly hated football, ed oliver has been too inconsistent, looks like tarzan some games, and jane in others, and DQ jones turned old overnight).  

 

our run isn't great, but for the end of 2023 and all 2024 it was meaningfully better than our pass D.  our DL has always had strong pass rush win % and pressure numbers, but it simply hasn't been good enough to get the job done.  a big part of it has been mentioned here by sojourner and others, we have a sort of very specific scheme and technique we have our guys play with.  we don't have the guys to make it work.

 

the upside, is one nasty game wrecker turns the whole thing on its head.  if we can get some actual guys in the secondary (say one starting S, and CB2, hope it can be elam but it doesn't look likely) who can cover a bit, and trade for garrett, ed oliver and groots pressures turn into DE2 and DT 2 pressures, and those guys get even more impact.  

 

in allen's first year, edmunds was horribly out of position the first two games, or game and a half, and we had that CB literally retire on us at halftime.  the d was shocking for the first 6 or 7 quarters.  and after that, it was #2 or so the rest of the season.  it's a bit of a finesse D, but when it works it's elite, teh problem is when it doesn't work it just falls into shambles (exhibit:  our playoff D).

 

in carolina, mcd had hardy, the kraken (goat nickname, not the nicest of men).  he had short, those two sick LBs, and helped josh norman steal like 50mm dollars from snyder when DC signed him.  solid safety play too.  but when hardy got suspended for what was probably 5 felonies but the witnesses sort of recanted, that D went from dominant and most of all physical to like middle of the pack.  they dominated peyton in the superbowl, but cam newton had his worst game as a pro and they lost.

 

i really hope garrett can be our less criminally insane kraken and get the D to what the head clapper always envisioned.

[Iiiiiiiiive Got a Feeeelin]

5 hours ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

All those names have one thing in common: weak ass attempts at getting better at defensive tackle.

Did you see what Poona Ford did last season?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

11 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

System and DT because we have high Caliber guys playing out of position because McD is playing his own game while everyone else plays chess.....

Bills defense is generally pretty good. Last year was an expected fall.

 

I do think the system limits players statistically. The Bills defense was 4th in sacks in 2023.

Im not sure what we complain about here in Buffalo. A lot of teams would love to have our defensive success.

Edited Wednesday at 01:31 AM by Buffalo_Stampede

[Ray Finkel]

6 hours ago, Rubes said:

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

Poona Ford had a pretty good year with San Diego this year.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, Ray Finkel said:

Poona Ford had a pretty good year with San Diego this year.

Poona Ford was good. Didn’t play in Buffalo. Bills were 4th in sacks in 2023 with Poona Ford sitting on the bench all year. Unbelievable.

[TheBeaneBandit]

31 minutes ago, Iiiiiiiiive Got a Feeeelin said:

Did you see what Poona Ford did last season?

Yes he had his second decent season after he had his first right before he came here. Makes you wonder why most come here and have stinker seasons though 👍

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Yes he had his second decent season after he had his first right before he came here. Makes you wonder why most come here and have stinker seasons though 👍

He didn’t play!