Defensive Tackle: Is it the Players or the System?

[BuffaloRebound]

26 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

To me Oliver is not being used properly. He’s small and quick and should be used as a gap attacking 3 tech. Instead he takes on double teams and blocks to keep linebackers clean. It’s a very passive, bend but don’t break, low risk run fit type of defensive concept. And it sucks. It’s actually really dumb, especially when they are in a 4-2-5 base, funneling plays to a 180 pound corner and spilling things to slow safeties who don’t really tackle. Just my opinion based on what I see. 
 

Play to your players’ strengths as opposed to forcing guys into a passive system. Oliver should be attacking all day. 

Excellent point.  Our lack of size at LB/nickel and safety means our DT’s have to keep the O-Line from getting to the 2nd level as much or more than the O-Line has to worry about our DT’s penetrating.  It’s not a defensive philosophy that is gonna win you a championship.  

[FireChans]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

We haven't valued the one technique position enough which leaves us with a bunch of tweeners and three techniques playing the one which hurts

Ed just needs a Star or Daquan to be successful. Oh wait.

 

 maybe let’s not rely on a 260 pound pass rushing DT to make a consistent impact.

[msw2112]

For what it's worth, I thought that Carter was starting to come on mid-season, then he got hurt.  Other than the undersized Oliver, who's more of a quick penetrator than a big run stuffer, the Bills have not made any significant investments at DT.  Daquan was a good signing, but was over 30 and past his prime when signed.  He was still pretty good during his first contract.  Star seemed like a good signing at the time, but really didn't make much of an impact.  Ford, Phillips, Settle, etc. were veteran FA's on cheap deals and not major impact types of players.  But you have to give to get, so the Bills invested in other areas.  I've read (on TBD) that the 2025 draft is loaded at DT, so perhaps this is the time to draft a difference maker who the team can get on a rookie contract.

[BuffaloRebound]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Ed just needs a Star or Daquan to be successful. Oh wait.

 

 maybe let’s not rely on a 260 pound pass rushing DT to make a consistent impact.

Paying for good not great isn’t a championship formula.  You can’t do the same with Rousseau who I like, but $20+million each for both Oliver and Rousseau is not a good allocation of resources.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

10 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

For what it's worth, I thought that Carter was starting to come on mid-season, then he got hurt.  Other than the undersized Oliver, who's more of a quick penetrator than a big run stuffer, the Bills have not made any significant investments at DT.  Daquan was a good signing, but was over 30 and past his prime when signed.  He was still pretty good during his first contract.  Star seemed like a good signing at the time, but really didn't make much of an impact.  Ford, Phillips, Settle, etc. were veteran FA's on cheap deals and not major impact types of players.  But you have to give to get, so the Bills invested in other areas.  I've read (on TBD) that the 2025 draft is loaded at DT, so perhaps this is the time to draft a difference maker who the team can get on a rookie contract.

He made a play in the Ravens game, one memorable one in the Texans game, one in the Titans game. 

 

But snap to snap he was not graded highly in pass rush (2% success rate) or in the run game. 

[TheBeaneBandit]

27 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I mean we literally brought in guys like Jordan Phillips off of waiver wires and he had 9 1/2 sacks 

 

Oliver has been disruptive plenty of time over his career 

 

We haven't valued the one technique position enough which leaves us with a bunch of tweeners and three techniques playing the one which hurts

The Phillips 9 1/2 sack season is the definition of flash in the pan. He was also horrendous vs the run that year and pretty much his entire career. People see 342 lbs and are like yo he gonna help vs the run. Every once in a blue moon he lucks out and shoots a gap in the run game but otherwise he is a liability vs the run.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Makes you wonder where all these picks Beane has every year are being spent. 

 

It's not at WR or DT that's for sure. 

 

The Bills ended 2023 with one DT signed for 2024 - so all you can do is band-aid in Free Agency unless you want multiple rookies starting. 

[Buffalo716]

21 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Ed just needs a Star or Daquan to be successful. Oh wait.

 

 maybe let’s not rely on a 260 pound pass rushing DT to make a consistent impact.

Eds advanced analytics have been really good for the last three four years.. he literally is always top 10 in quarterback hits and pressures 

 

he's a good run stopper.. 99% of defensive tackles need some help around them to consistently flash.. there's only one Aaron Donald..  and even he could get taken out of some games when they didn't have enough pieces around him and you brought a good game plan 

 

Defensive lines get it done as a unit

7 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

The Phillips 9 1/2 sack season is the definition of flash in the pan. He was also horrendous vs the run that year and pretty much his entire career. People see 342 lbs and are like yo he gonna help vs the run. Every once in a blue moon he lucks out and shoots a gap in the run game but otherwise he is a liability vs the run.

Umm did you not read what I said 

 

I literally said we have a bunch of three techniques and tweeners

 

Jordan Phillips is a good three technique.. he's not a one technique which we need

[JohnNord]

53 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

2018 - QB A.J. McCarron, RB Chris Ivory, WR Jeremy Kerley, OT Marshall Newhouse, C Russell Bodine, DE Trent Murphy, DT Star Lotulelei, CB Vontae Davis, CB Phillip Gaines, S Rafael Bush.

 

2019 - RB Frank Gore, WR John Brown, WR Cole Beasley, TE Tyler Kroft, TE Lee Smith, OT Ty Nsekhe, OT LaAdrian Waddle, G John Feliciano, G Quinton Spain, C Mitch Morse, C Spencer Long, OLB Eli Harold, CB Kevin Johnson, CB E.J. Gaines, S Maurice Alexander, KR Andre Roberts.

 

2020 - RB Taiwan Jones, WR Stefon Diggs, OT Daryl Williams, DE Mario Addison, DT Quinton Jefferson, DT Vernon Butler, LB A.J. Klein, LB Tyler Matakevich, CB Josh Norman.

 

2021 - QB Mitchell Trubisky, RB Matt Breida, WR Emmanuel Sanders, WR Brandon Powell, TE Jacob Hollister, OT Bobby Hart, G Forrest Lamp, P Matt Haack.

 

2022 - QB Case Keenum, RB Duke Johnson, WR Jamison Crowder, WR Tavon Austin, TE O.J. Howard, OT David Quessenberry, G Rodger Saffold, G Greg Van Roten, DE Von Miller, DE Shaq Lawson, DT DaQuan Jones, DT Jordan Phillips, DT Tim Settle.

 

2023 - QB Kyle Allen, RB Damien Harris, WR Trent Sherfield, WR Deonte Harty, OT Brandon Shell, G David Edwards, G Connor McGovern, DT Poona Ford, DE/OLB Leonard Floyd, CB Cameron Dantzler, S Taylor Rapp.

 

2024 - QB Mitchell Trubisky, WR Curtis Samuel, WR Mack Hollins, OT La’el Collins, C Will Clapp, DE Casey Toohill, DT Austin Johnson, LB Nicholas Morrow, S Mike Edwards.

 

 

Most are cheap free agents in the primary wave of free agency. 

 

Star L and DaQuan Jones were the big swings, along with Ed Oliver 9th overall. 

 

Past that, it's been mostly minimum investment, and really since the cap tightened up so much in 2023 and 2024. 

 

 

I wouldn’t really call DaQuann a big swing.  They signed him to starter money 2 years $14M but it seemed to me like they were filling a hole short term rather than making a big investment like they did with Star in 2018

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Rubes said:

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

Yes.  

Look at the list, all bad decisions by Beane.  Talent evaluation MUST be better.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I will never say a bad thing about Jordan Phillips! That dude basically made the defensive play of the year against the chiefs with that sack. Got us the ball back with a chance to win. 

[gjv]

From my perspective we have one, possibly two, players on our defense that could start for either KC or Baltimore. So I would think that any success our defense has had this past season is attributed to scheme and good coaching. DT play is certainly included.

[Mikie2times]

Given the defenses speed over size approach, 4-2-5 base, you would think an elite one tech could transform the entire defense. Imagine our run defense being solidified. LB's being more clean. Ed left to penetrate. This has been a major fail by leadership from what I can see. In times when Jones has played well, early on with Star, and even when Joseph was signed it was clear that role can really make an impact. 

[Virgil]

I really feel like it has to be the system.  I don't think we are a pin our ears back and rush the QB type of defensive system.  I think they are in certain situations, but their primary responsibilities are contain and run stuff first.  Taking that extra second to look out for those things, and then rushing the QB, greatly impacts their effectiveness.

[TheBeaneBandit]

9 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Given the defenses speed over size approach, 4-2-5 base, you would think an elite one tech could transform the entire defense. Imagine our run defense being solidified. LB's being more clean. Ed left to penetrate. This has been a major fail by leadership from what I can see. In times when Jones has played well, early on with Star, and even when Joseph was signed it was clear that role can really make an impact. 

The thing is you not only got to find that one guy but someone who can back him up for spells where it's not a complete downgrade. We had the guy to spell for a couple seasons in Jones but he no longer is even that player.

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, Rubes said:

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

well Star was kinda pricey.

 it's both and more than that

 

my humble opine is , McD is lagging in adjusting his Defense mindset , in player AND scheme philosophy.

Frazier leaving was his first attempt to adjust it seemed. WIP. More hope in Babich than i Had with Leslie , thats a big for sure

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Ed just needs a Star or Daquan to be successful. Oh wait.

 

 maybe let’s not rely on a 260 pound pass rushing DT to make a consistent impact.

Not in the way they use him

 What are they thinking ? Setting up the pass rush ?

 Some one smart should looking into what Bills are doing up front when Ed is having a successful day. Because those happen.

 I still want two fat kids if you are playing an honest 4-3 on downs 1-2

[Rubes]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

I really feel like it has to be the system.  I don't think we are a pin our ears back and rush the QB type of defensive system.  I think they are in certain situations, but their primary responsibilities are contain and run stuff first.  Taking that extra second to look out for those things, and then rushing the QB, greatly impacts their effectiveness.

 

If that's the case, why are we so stinkin' bad at stopping the run??

 

[PromoTheRobot]

You left out: effort. Where is the consistent effort? Why do players do great one year and disappear the next? Injuries maybe. But do some players get too comfortable?

[BillsPride12]

It's a position Beane has severely undervalued since he's been here which is a major head scratcher for me