Defensive Tackle: Is it the Players or the System?

[Rubes]

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

[TheBeaneBandit]

1 minute ago, Rubes said:

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

All those names have one thing in common: weak ass attempts at getting better at defensive tackle.

[hondo in seattle]

3 minutes ago, Rubes said:

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

 

I confess I'm no DL guru but I've had the same concerns for the same reasons.

 

Maybe someone who's an expert at DL play can answer the question.  

[Logic]

6 minutes ago, Rubes said:

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

I think this is a really valid question.

The two biggest examples I'd point to that suggest there may be something to it are Tim Settle and Poona Ford. Both played CONSIDERABLY better for their post-Bills teams.

Put simply (because I am no defensive line guru), I can't help but feel that our defensive line needs its Aaron Kromer.

[Sojourner]

75/25 Talent/Scheme

 

Theres less you can do with the front standpoint as our “base” defense is nickel and not a traditional 4-3 where you can change the gap assignments in an under or over front. 
 

For that reason, it mainly falls on the talent lacking at the interior. However, with a consistent failing to make some changes in the personnel like he did during his Carolina days, I get it though as Taron is one of the best, makes it fall on scheme too.  Still there was periods Taron was out and he kept it the same. During his Panther days he had Shaq Thompson as a hybrid safety in the same role Taron occupies. That in turn doubles back to the lack of talent to have freedom of assignment variations. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Sojourner

[SCBills]

1)  We have woefully underinvested in the position outside Ed Oliver and Daquan Jones (who we gave one too many contracts too).

 

2)  McDermott wants gap shooting/penetration style defense which requires more agile (typically smaller) DT's, which in turn also exposes our undersized linebackers and nickel corner to more punishment.

 

It seems to be a flawed scheme that has also been woefully underinvested in.

[Orlando Buffalo]

We play a scheme where we need big fatty DT(Ted Washington would be ideal) but can't afford the middle of the line destroyers. Daquan was one his first year here till he got hurt, Star was also very good until he was injured but most of the guys listed are smaller than what we need. This is why I want Dexter Lawrence so much, he is the guy whose talent matched our scheme needs 

[Mat68]

Oliver has been solid. Imo Beane prioritized 3 tech not 1 tech.  Mcdermott played the Star because the importance 1 tech has on the front 7 run defense.  Beane has used b to c level FA to fill the role.  They have shuffled different players through.  Get Ed a big mfer to force attention and create disruption.  

[Aussie Joe]

DT is the red headed step child compared with DE since they  overpaid for Star and drafted Ed Oliver …decisions made 6 years ago …

 

I don’t get why they haven’t tried to draft a 1T to develop since Harrison Phillips in 2018

 

 

 

 

[Rubes]

18 minutes ago, Logic said:

I think this is a really valid question.

The two biggest examples I'd point to that suggest there may be something to it are Tim Settle and Poona Ford. Both played CONSIDERABLY better for their post-Bills teams.

Put simply (because I am no defensive line guru), I can't help but feel that our defensive line needs its Aaron Kromer.

Right…and most people, I would argue, were really interested to see how Poona and Settle would perform in this defense, given their promising careers before coming here.

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

19 minutes ago, Rubes said:

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

2018 - Harrison Phillips - 3rd Round - He played here for 4-years and I couldn't tell you any plays he really made. Good background with the wrestling, but he's been a rotational player in the NFL. 

 

2019 - Ed Oliver - 9th Overall - The Bills best DT, but compared to the rest of the league, not overly impressive as a starter. 

 

2020 - None

 

2021 - None

 

2022  - None

 

2023 - None

 

2024 - DeWayne Carter - 3rd Round - No impact. 

 

 

Beane has been here for 7 years and drafted 3 DTs, so his strategy the past three seasons is to fill DT with cheap Free Agents. 

 

And so it's no wonder the team has been mediocre for years at this position. 

[Alphadawg7]

I mean we have invested very little draft wise into the position and used low cost FA’s to fill roles.
 

Serviceable is the word to describe almost all of them because that is what you get when you don’t invest into the position.

Edited 3 hours ago by Alphadawg7

[JohnNord]

11 minutes ago, Rubes said:

Seems like it’s been a long time since the Bills had a difference-maker at DT. Not for a lack of trying, though—the Bills have drafted guys (not many) and brought a bunch in as free agents over the years, but almost entirely without substantial success.

 

Oliver had a really good year in 2023, but that’s about it. DaQuon was looking pretty good that year too until the injury. Other than those two performances, the best we’ve had is really just average, with most performances ranking below average.

 

We’ve brought guys in with varied backgrounds and skill sets, only to watch most of them disappoint or perform below expectations. Going back to 2020 that list includes guys like:

 

Brandin Bryant

Star Lotulelei

Vernon Butler

Poona Ford

Tim Settle

Austin Johnson

Jordan Phillips

Dewayne Carter

Linval Joseph

 

Granted, almost none of these guys were known to be, or were expected to develop into, difference-makers. I mean, for the most part we’ve gotten what we paid for—average, at best, though you could argue it’s even less than that. Then you look at what Poona and Settle did after leaving the Bills and having impact years, it starts to make you wonder…

 

Is it the Bills defensive system more than the players? Is this a system that just doesn’t bring out the best in this position? If we drafted or brought in a true blue chipper at DT, would he just also underperform or disappoint?

 

Or is it really just that we have underinvested in the position and it’s purely the lack of high-end talent that is the limitation?

You forgot about Harrison Phillips, who has played better in Minnesota as is a legit starting DT.

 

I think the big issue is they haven’t tried to take a big swing at DT since Star.  Take a look at that list  - it’s mostly low salaried FA’s and mid-level draft picks.  Even a player like Ford who had a great season, was available deep into the offseason.  So when you haven’t made much of an investment how return can you really expect?  

 

I also think part of the problem is that they signed players that don’t uniquely fit their needs at DT.  Ford and Settle are best at 1TDT, and it seems like Buffalo tried playing them next to Ed Oliver.  Same with DeWayne Carter.  
 

So I don’t think the problem is the scheme or the coaching.  The Bills just never really made a strong attempt to address that need, though I feel that change this offseason. 

 

[KOKBILLS]

I think it's both tbh...

[JohnNord]

15 minutes ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

We play a scheme where we need big fatty DT(Ted Washington would be ideal) but can't afford the middle of the line destroyers. Daquan was one his first year here till he got hurt, Star was also very good until he was injured but most of the guys listed are smaller than what we need. This is why I want Dexter Lawrence so much, he is the guy whose talent matched our scheme needs 

I would disagree with this - Star was average at best for two seasons, before he peaced out during the COVID season.  It was largely a bad investment by Buffalo.  

They signed him from Carolina for his untapped potential, but he was largely the same average DT.
 

When Star returned in 2021 after the COVID year he just wasn’t the same player and by the end of the year the Bills made him a healthy scratch.  Just a very bad signing

[OldTimer1960]

To be fair to the DTs, the team plays a 4-2-5 defense with both linebackers being on the small side and the extra DB is tough but small as well.  They also play Safeties deep.  

 

That doesn't excuse the DTs per se, but they have limitations on the second level to cover up in addition to their own responsibilities.  

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

To me Oliver is not being used properly. He’s small and quick and should be used as a gap attacking 3 tech. Instead he takes on double teams and blocks to keep linebackers clean. It’s a very passive, bend but don’t break, low risk run fit type of defensive concept. And it sucks. It’s actually really dumb, especially when they are in a 4-2-5 base, funneling plays to a 180 pound corner and spilling things to slow safeties who don’t really tackle. Just my opinion based on what I see. 
 

Play to your players’ strengths as opposed to forcing guys into a passive system. Oliver should be attacking all day. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

14 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I would disagree with this - Star was average at best for two seasons, before he peaced out during the COVID season.  It was largely a bad investment by Buffalo.  

They signed him from Carolina for his untapped potential, but he was largely the same average DT.
 

When Star returned in 2021 after the COVID year he just wasn’t the same player and by the end of the year the Bills made him a healthy scratch.  Just a very bad signing

2018 - QB A.J. McCarron, RB Chris Ivory, WR Jeremy Kerley, OT Marshall Newhouse, C Russell Bodine, DE Trent Murphy, DT Star Lotulelei, CB Vontae Davis, CB Phillip Gaines, S Rafael Bush.

 

2019 - RB Frank Gore, WR John Brown, WR Cole Beasley, TE Tyler Kroft, TE Lee Smith, OT Ty Nsekhe, OT LaAdrian Waddle, G John Feliciano, G Quinton Spain, C Mitch Morse, C Spencer Long, OLB Eli Harold, CB Kevin Johnson, CB E.J. Gaines, S Maurice Alexander, KR Andre Roberts.

 

2020 - RB Taiwan Jones, WR Stefon Diggs, OT Daryl Williams, DE Mario Addison, DT Quinton Jefferson, DT Vernon Butler, LB A.J. Klein, LB Tyler Matakevich, CB Josh Norman.

 

2021 - QB Mitchell Trubisky, RB Matt Breida, WR Emmanuel Sanders, WR Brandon Powell, TE Jacob Hollister, OT Bobby Hart, G Forrest Lamp, P Matt Haack.

 

2022 - QB Case Keenum, RB Duke Johnson, WR Jamison Crowder, WR Tavon Austin, TE O.J. Howard, OT David Quessenberry, G Rodger Saffold, G Greg Van Roten, DE Von Miller, DE Shaq Lawson, DT DaQuan Jones, DT Jordan Phillips, DT Tim Settle.

 

2023 - QB Kyle Allen, RB Damien Harris, WR Trent Sherfield, WR Deonte Harty, OT Brandon Shell, G David Edwards, G Connor McGovern, DT Poona Ford, DE/OLB Leonard Floyd, CB Cameron Dantzler, S Taylor Rapp.

 

2024 - QB Mitchell Trubisky, WR Curtis Samuel, WR Mack Hollins, OT La’el Collins, C Will Clapp, DE Casey Toohill, DT Austin Johnson, LB Nicholas Morrow, S Mike Edwards.

 

 

Most are cheap free agents in the primary wave of free agency. 

 

Star L and DaQuan Jones were the big swings, along with Ed Oliver 9th overall. 

 

Past that, it's been mostly minimum investment, and really since the cap tightened up so much in 2023 and 2024. 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Straight Hucklebuck

[harmonkillebrew]

24 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

2018 - Harrison Phillips - 3rd Round - He played here for 4-years and I couldn't tell you any plays he really made. Good background with the wrestling, but he's been a rotational player in the NFL. 

 

2019 - Ed Oliver - 9th Overall - The Bills best DT, but compared to the rest of the league, not overly impressive as a starter. 

 

2020 - None

 

2021 - None

 

2022  - None

 

2023 - None

 

2024 - DeWayne Carter - 3rd Round - No impact. 

 

 

Beane has been here for 7 years and drafted 3 DTs, so his strategy the past three seasons is to fill DT with cheap Free Agents. 

 

And so it's no wonder the team has been mediocre for years at this position. 

Yeah, DT has not been a priority. We've gotten some serviceable guys in FA, but Star and Daquan aren't exactly game wreckers.

Not sure why it's been so low priority, but it's come to bite us the past two years as Daquan's been injured, now old and declining and Jordan Phillips is the same. 

[Buffalo716]

I mean we literally brought in guys like Jordan Phillips off of waiver wires and he had 9 1/2 sacks 

 

Oliver has been disruptive plenty of time over his career 

 

We haven't valued the one technique position enough which leaves us with a bunch of tweeners and three techniques playing the one which hurts