Jonathan Martin and Incognito Bullygate back in the news

[JESSEFEFFER]

I'll weigh in.  I think it went sort of like this and had similar consequences.  The OL are the US Marines of the locker room.  Not every human being is capable of being a marine no matter how they are "encouraged" to up their performance and playing mind games with people can go sideways.  Martin was considered soft by the coaching staff and team and there was a concerted attempt to toughen him up.   Call it constructive bullying.  Who issued the Code Red?  Wrong movie.

[Mango]

9 hours ago, Brand J said:

The “lie” was that Martin never believed it to be bullying but didn’t correct his mother in front of TMZ and also went along with the Wells report, even though he believed it to be a “clown show.”

 

I imagine Martin knows Incognito along with his other teammates didn’t truly mean any ill will towards him, nothing that Richie said is to be taken in the literal sense. It was over the top locker room comments, very inappropriate, but harmless in intent.

Imagine texting a somebody “wassup you half n-word piece of shirt” and writing it off as “over the top locker room talk”. That wasn’t a lie. It’s a message he sent, along with a whole bunch of other racial slurs to employees in the building. 

 

I agree with your first paragraph.
 

But in regards to your second, hard pass. Incognito is a bad human. Full stop. There’s a bunch of bad humans in NFL locker rooms that teammates support. But the general public shouldn’t. Richie stinks. 

7 hours ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

 

I am going off my memory and a quick search of articles from them. Both articles I read then stated Martin got the investigation started by claiming he was being bullied. If there was another reason the investigation started I will accept it but everything stems from the initial complaint of bullying according to the articles from 2013. 

Should Incognito have been suspended for what showed up in the Wells report?

Edited Tuesday at 04:56 AM by Mango

[White Linen]

15 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree. I played and coached a reasonably high level of competitive sport without ever using the threat of slapping someone's mother to motivate them. 

 

You think he really was going to hit his mother?  Does that matter?

[Brand J]

25 minutes ago, Mango said:

Imagine texting a somebody “wassup you half n-word piece of shirt” and writing it off as “over the top locker room talk”. That wasn’t a lie. It’s a message he sent, along with a whole bunch of other racial slurs to employees in the building. 

I mean, I’d never do it because that’s not my personality. I’m not defending what he said, but we do have to acknowledge there are people out there who talk like this amongst each other but aren’t necessarily “bad people.” Ignorant? Sure. Richie’s a grown man, but speaks like a middle school wanna be tough guy. You’d be appalled with how today’s youth speak to each other. And I’m talking amongst friends.
 

Richie’s texts weren’t laced with vitriol, he wasn’t saying these things behind Martin’s back. The two were reportedly close friends. Do you think Richie really felt that way towards Martin? That he’s racist at his core? I don’t. I think both men have mental issues. 

[Mango]

5 hours ago, Brand J said:

I mean, I’d never do it because that’s not my personality. I’m not defending what he said, but we do have to acknowledge there are people out there who talk like this amongst each other but aren’t necessarily “bad people.” Ignorant? Sure. Richie’s a grown man, but speaks like a middle school wanna be tough guy. You’d be appalled with how today’s youth speak to each other. And I’m talking amongst friends.
 

Richie’s texts weren’t laced with vitriol, he wasn’t saying these things behind Martin’s back. The two were reportedly close friends. Do you think Richie really felt that way towards Martin? That he’s racist at his core? I don’t. I think both men have mental issues. 

No we don’t have to just “acknowledge” that some people talk that way. lol. The guys calls people Chinamen, *****, and a  stinky Pakistani. 

All mentally ill people aren’t bad or dangerous people. But Richie Incognito is. I didn’t realize that there was anybody out there debating this. Ha.

 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

You think he really was going to hit his mother?  Does that matter?

 

No I don't think he was. But in terms of the toxicity no I don't think it matters. I just think it is ridiculous. If you are coming at me, come at me. Don't go after my family it is not a motiviational tool, it's just offensive.

[Bill from NYC]

I never believed that Martin was bullied. How many NFL left tackles are bullied? What I do believe is that Incognito is a thuggish, gigantic man with super strength who was roided out for many years. To this day I think that steroids are quite prevalent in the NFL. They are the elephant in the room that fans can't or won't see. 

 

Remember Jose Canseco anyone? In high school he was so shy that he barely spoke at all. Jose went from 195 lbs to 245 lbs and actually got faster. This once ever so shy person was then driving around well over 100 miles per hour and fooling around with Madonna (not a rarity for steroid users in those days lol).

 

I think that Ruben Foster (for those who remember him) could have been an all time great linebacker, but off the field issues (and some injuries) screwed up his career. He was fast and extremely vicious, with super human strength. He was a predator on the field and a maniac off of it. Was he on steroids? All we can do is guess.

 

I am not on an anti-steroid crusade. I wish the players well but I have no, nor do I want any control of what these players do to their bodies. The NFL is entertainment to me. I do however believe that untraceable steroid usage is still widespread in the NFL. Do I have any evidence to present? Of course not. That said, some of these off field incidents do raise a few eyebrows, to say the least.

 

Of course, this is jmo.

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, Simon said:

 

Who are you and what have you done with our friend?

 

2 weeks made me a new man lol

[Brand J]

4 hours ago, Mango said:

No we don’t have to just “acknowledge” that some people talk that way. lol. The guys calls people Chinamen, *****, and a  stinky Pakistani. 

All mentally ill people aren’t bad or dangerous people. But Richie Incognito is. I didn’t realize that there was anybody out there debating this. Ha.

 

I don’t know how you can unequivocally state he’s a bad person, especially when you’re not privy to his mental health issues. Eric Wood spent a whole lot more time with him than anyone on this board and still views him as a brother. I have a hard time believing that’d be the case if Incognito was a despicable person. You don’t know the man.

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, Mango said:

Should Incognito have been suspended for what showed up in the Wells report?

 

Yes. 

IMHO, the most damning stuff in the Wells report didn't have to do with how Incognito interacted with Martin or other players.

It had to do with how Incognito and his teammates, huge powerful athletes, treated the working guys in the building.  From a summary:

"We find that the Assistant Trainer repeatedly was targeted with racial slurs and other racially derogatory language."

 

Here you have supposedly grown-ass men, bullying an assistant trainer who is paid peanuts compared to them and is physically smaller and weaker.

 

Martin and his mental problems aside, Incognito was scum.
 

1 hour ago, Brand J said:

I don’t know how you can unequivocally state he’s a bad person, especially when you’re not privy to his mental health issues. Eric Wood spent a whole lot more time with him than anyone on this board and still views him as a brother. I have a hard time believing that’d be the case if Incognito was a despicable person. You don’t know the man.

 

See above.

 

The Incognito that Wood knew had his fangs pulled.  He wasn't given a leadership role and allowed to treat people like that in Buffalo. 

But Wood also pretty strongly implied that the reason Incognito was asked to take a paycut (that touched off his whole bizarroworld downhill slide) was that he wasn't playing up to standard his last year in Buffalo.  I believe Incognito even later admitted that he was back to substance abuse and showing up at work drunk/high (Edit: I mean his last year with the Bills)

 

Wood can excuse that out of "brotherly love" if he wants.  It's not "good person" behavior to me.

Edited Tuesday at 04:31 PM by Beck Water

[Mango]

20 minutes ago, Brand J said:

I don’t know how you can unequivocally state he’s a bad person, especially when you’re not privy to his mental health issues. Eric Wood spent a whole lot more time with him than anyone on this board and still views him as a brother. I have a hard time believing that’d be the case if Incognito was a despicable person. You don’t know the man.

 

Antonio Brown is mentally ill and is a bad person. Kanye West is mentally ill and is a bad person. Richie Incognito who calls black people the n-word, Asian people the c-word, throws weights at people, threatens to shoot people. This feels like splitting hairs. On Incognitos best day he is a dangerous humanbeing. And for me, if you are dangerous you cannot be good. 

The fact that after all the evidence was released about Incognito,(the text messages, the voicemails, the first hand accounts)that after 12 years he (and Eric Wood) thinks that somebody else ruined his reputation doesn't give me any faith that he (Incognito) is some sort of reformed individual. It is actually an insane premise. 

Incognito ruined Incognito. The fact that he not only said all those terrible things, but also thinks somebody else is to blame for all the terrible things he said, means he stinks as a human. 

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:19 PM by Mango

[JohnNord]

9 hours ago, Brand J said:

I mean, I’d never do it because that’s not my personality. I’m not defending what he said, but we do have to acknowledge there are people out there who talk like this amongst each other but aren’t necessarily “bad people.” Ignorant? Sure. Richie’s a grown man, but speaks like a middle school wanna be tough guy. You’d be appalled with how today’s youth speak to each other. And I’m talking amongst friends.
 

Richie’s texts weren’t laced with vitriol, he wasn’t saying these things behind Martin’s back. The two were reportedly close friends. Do you think Richie really felt that way towards Martin? That he’s racist at his core? I don’t. I think both men have mental issues. 

I’m pretty sure Richie admitted that his language was harsh and not appropriate.  What he always denied was that it was a bullying situation, and Martin’s recent comments would seem to support this.  

[colin]

3 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I never believed that Martin was bullied. How many NFL left tackles are bullied? What I do believe is that Incognito is a thuggish, gigantic man with super strength who was roided out for many years. To this day I think that steroids are quite prevalent in the NFL. They are the elephant in the room that fans can't or won't see. 

 

Remember Jose Canseco anyone? In high school he was so shy that he barely spoke at all. Jose went from 195 lbs to 245 lbs and actually got faster. This once ever so shy person was then driving around well over 100 miles per hour and fooling around with Madonna (not a rarity for steroid users in those days lol).

 

I think that Ruben Foster (for those who remember him) could have been an all time great linebacker, but off the field issues (and some injuries) screwed up his career. He was fast and extremely vicious, with super human strength. He was a predator on the field and a maniac off of it. Was he on steroids? All we can do is guess.

 

I am not on an anti-steroid crusade. I wish the players well but I have no, nor do I want any control of what these players do to their bodies. The NFL is entertainment to me. I do however believe that untraceable steroid usage is still widespread in the NFL. Do I have any evidence to present? Of course not. That said, some of these off field incidents do raise a few eyebrows, to say the least.

 

Of course, this is jmo.

 

so, i'm going to differ from you on one thing (to a degree) roids don't change people, they just supercharge them.  canseco was shy as a youth, and out of control as a big time pro, but he's an ego maniac even off the roids (i knew a neighbor of his, really rich area, the neighbor really got a kick out of jose but had stories which amused him about what a total over the top goof he was, and that's years after retiring and at the very least, doing way less roids).  foster, canseco, and richie are all jerks/psychos, a holes, basically the stereo type of people who would be locked up if they weren't so good at sports.  i also think these guys use a lot of other recreational drugs which do worse things to their minds than roids do, by a lot.

 

now, anyone who is hip to doping, anti doping, and human performance will laugh out loud if you ask them about steroids and peds in the nfl.

 

1 -- the testing is lax.  USADA, the IOC testing, and a couple others are the zenith of testing and they can be defeated and are (usually, the testing changes when a whistleblower comes out with how they were being cheated, they change the testing, and then the cheating happens again while being undetected  until the next cycle).  how can we know the highest level of testing is defeated?  guys (tyson gay for example) get popped, come back, dont' get popped, and perform at the same insane level.  anyhow, the NFL testing is way less invasive, they do it less, and the players have lots and lots of wiggle room to get out of being popped.  also, certain compounds and low enough amounts of others simply will not be detected.

 

2 -- the athlete performance is so so high.  not just the obvious, giant jacked guys running fast and jumping high, but the less obvious stuff.  guys tearing a biceps and being close to world class athletes again in the 5 months at the age of 30+, being able to play that hard and recover and do it again 20 times in a season, the strange combo of endurance, speed, strength, and size.  other athletes that can hit three of those can't touch the other (weightlifters, throwers etc, can be as big as nfl linemen, stronger, as fast or faster at least in their specific sport, but cannot handle the volume, the running, the contact, and the grind, and they aren't clean either!)

 

3  -- the money.  i know you were a LEO, if there was a drug that you could take that had some mild to moderate health considerations which let you be way better at your job, get paid better, and more likely to last longer and make it home, would you have taken it?  i think most would.  that's what PEDs are for nfl athletes.  they have such a huge incentive to be even slightly better, and all the money to make it happen, which will make more money.  and their job is not for longevity, they get a few years only and want to win.

 

the number of ex OL and DL i see post retirement who basically vanished in terms of muscle mass is crazy.  the only one i've seen who is still big (but way leaner) is joe thomas, and that doesnt' mean he isnt' on now and wasn't then, but for example tyler lewan, who had a 100MM contract or close to at one point, top 10 pick and i think made all pro at LT (and he got popped for PEDs at at least one point) is 6'7" and like 245 pounds now.  he played north of 300.  he did a thing on his podcast benching dumbells (maybe 100s) and benching a 135 bar for reps, and it was good highschool level, not nfl level.  he also did a thing throwing footballs in a competition, and you can see his natural athletic ability and football training aren't gone, so it's not like his shoulder is shot or something, he's just way way way less strong than before.

 

 

[Brand J]

19 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Antonio Brown is mentally ill and is a bad person. Kanye West is mentally ill and is a bad person. Richie Incognito who calls black people the n-word, Asian people the c-word, throws weights at people, threatens to shoot people. This feels like splitting hairs. On Incognitos best day he is a dangerous humanbeing. And for me, if you are dangerous you cannot be good. 

The fact that after all the evidence was released about Incognito,(the text messages, the voicemails, the first hand accounts)that after 12 years he (and Eric Wood) thinks that somebody else ruined his reputation doesn't give me any faith that he (Incognito) is some sort of reformed individual. It is actually an insane premise. 

Incognito ruined Incognito. The fact that he not only said all those terrible things, but also thinks somebody else is to blame for all the terrible things he said, means he stinks as a human. 

 

Incognito is not a moral, upstanding citizen that’s for sure, but how much of that can be attributed to mental health? Same goes for Antonio Brown as well as Kanye West. Do you see a similar thread here? They all have screws loose.
 

And again, I don’t want to sound like I’m defending the words that came out of his mouth but context is needed. We can see what was said on a piece of paper, but with the Assistant trainer @Beck Water referenced, did he/she laugh along with the guys, or was it truly a case where they felt bullied and discriminated? If the latter, they chose to reveal this to Wells, but not to anyone else on the team for as long as it went on?
 

If on Incognito’s best day he’s a dangerous human being, then I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before his actions lead him to prison, wouldn’t you agree?
 

8 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I’m pretty sure Richie admitted that his language was harsh and not appropriate.  What he always denied was that it was a bullying situation, and Martin’s recent comments would seem to support this.  

Yeah, I don’t disagree.

[colin]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No I don't think he was. But in terms of the toxicity no I don't think it matters. I just think it is ridiculous. If you are coming at me, come at me. Don't go after my family it is not a motiviational tool, it's just offensive.

 

sticks and stones will break my bones but words shall never hurt me.

 

richie obviously is a huge jerk and a bully, but people saying mean or racist things isn't that big of a deal in places like an nfl locker room where it's the norm.  particularly when fouls that may or not even get called and don't necessarily lead to a player being ejected are often a fully intentional attempt to basically maim someone.

 

like, on any meaningful moral scale, what richie said is way way way less of any kind of sin or problem than when garrett tried to murder rudolph with a helmet to an uncovered head.  we are all ready to forgive garrett (i'd love to trade a first and a 2nd for him!!) but in what universe can you be accept that and take a stand on richie bullying his pal (im certain richie thought they were pals), even if how he did it was pretty laughably over the top, but only just words?

[Beck Water]

34 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Antonio Brown is mentally ill and is a bad person. Kanye West is mentally ill and is a bad person. Richie Incognito who calls black people the n-word, asian people the c-word, throws weights at people, threatens to shoot people. This feels like splitting hairs. On Incognitos best day he is a dangerous human being. And for me, if you are dangerous you cannot be good. 

The fact that after all the evidence was released about Incognito,(the text messages, the voicemails, the first hand accounts)that after 12 years he (and Eric Wood) thinks that somebody else ruined reputation doesn't give me any faith that he (Incognito) is some sort of reformed individual. It is actually an insane premise. 

Incognito ruined Incognito. The fact that he not only said all those terrible things, but also thinks somebody else is to blame for all the terrible things he said, means he stinks as a human. 

 

 

 

One little caveat:  I don't agree that being dangerous, per se, means you can not be good.  But that really depends upon one's definition of dangerous.  I think you are using "dangerous" as a synonym for "violent and unpredictable", and I would agree that "violent and unpredictable" is implausible to coexist with Good.
 

23 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I’m pretty sure Richie admitted that his language was harsh and not appropriate.  What he always denied was that it was a bullying situation, and Martin’s recent comments would seem to support this.  

 

The thing is, the Wells report made clear that this kind of language (and perhaps intimidating physical behavior) was proven to be used against a lowly and physically smaller and weaker assistant trainer (who was working for peanuts relative to the players) and against an unnamed, but possibly way lower on the totem pole offensive lineman (possibly a practice squad guy) who may have an opinion on that.

 

That's CLEARLY bullying behavior. 

 

And that's just the behavior the Wells report was able to document.  And it wasn't new.  Incognito had a history of this kind of stuff stretching back into college  at least:
 

Quote

It was early 2002 — long before Incognito was accused of similar behavior with the Miami Dolphins. Incognito was just a freshman at Nebraska, but that didn't stop him from picking fights or harassing teammates, in this case a non-scholarship offensive lineman named Jack Limbaugh. Incognito plowed into Limbaugh's back during practice, knocking him to the ground for no apparent reason.

Limbaugh responded by getting up, grabbing his equipment and walking out, according to the diary of teammate David Kolowski.

"Richie was a guy who came in with all the talent in the world, and Jack was an easy mark for a guy like Richie, who came across as a bully," Kolowski told USA TODAY Sports on Monday. "Jack was a walk-on just trying to make the team. There was a bit of that kind of bullying with Jack. He didn't appreciate it, but in that culture you don't run and cry to the coaches."

 

Again, Wood can stick up for his poor, wronged "brother" with his "ruined" reputation if he wants to, but the fact is that Incognito had a pattern of bullying behavior and out-of-control behavior that stretched way back prior to the Dolphins, and that was protected by the "culture (that) you don't run and cry to the coaches".

Mango is 100% spot on that Incognito ruined Incognito's reputation, and that he stinks as a human being.

 

It's a fact that Incognito had career earnings of $15M prior to being suspended by the Dolphins.  He finished his career with $32M of career earnings - so he MORE THAN DOUBLED his career earnings after having his "reputation ruined". 

Boo Hoo.  Some ruin.

Edited Tuesday at 03:57 PM by Beck Water

[Alphadawg7]

On 2/16/2025 at 7:21 PM, Beast said:

What does that have to do with Martin fabricating stuff to make Incognito look bad?

 

Not aimed at just you....but...Did anyone read the article?  

 

No where in the article does it say he made it up, in fact, the entire article states it all did happen, he just regrets how big it got and how he didn't want to be the face of bullying.  His dad even plays a voice mail by Ritchie saying and doing all the things he was alleged to have said and done.

 

Don't get me wrong, Martin is soft as charmin...but literally nothing in this article says he made it up or that it didn't happen.  In fact, every person they interviewed in this article acknowledges things happened in there.  

[Beck Water]

24 minutes ago, Brand J said:

And again, I don’t want to sound like I’m defending the words that came out of his mouth but context is needed. We can see what was said on a piece of paper, but with the Assistant trainer @Beck Water referenced, did he/she laugh along with the guys, or was it truly a case where they felt bullied and discriminated? If the latter, they chose to reveal this to Wells, but not to anyone else on the team for as long as it went on?

 

Ever hear the phrase "Go along to Get Along"?

 

There's a hierarchy in every workplace.  There's also a workplace culture.  Take a culture where toxic, verbally and sometimes physically abusive behavior is openly tolerated or even encouraged by management (which, the Wells report concluded, was the case with the Dolphins).  Now take someone like an assistant trainer who is near the bottom of the hierarchy, trying to make a living and easily replaced. 

Of course they're going to either stone-face or laugh off treatment by the Big Shots, the star players. 

Doesn't mean they don't experience it as humiliating and inappropriate

Does mean that if they "read the room" and see management as condoning or even encouraging that kind of behavior, they're not gonna bother reporting it.

[GunnerBill]

42 minutes ago, colin said:

 

sticks and stones will break my bones but words shall never hurt me.

 

richie obviously is a huge jerk and a bully, but people saying mean or racist things isn't that big of a deal in places like an nfl locker room where it's the norm. 

 

It's 2025, it shouldn't be the norm. It is toxic. And we shouldn't just accept it will always exist because there is no reason why it should. 

 

EDIT: and for clarity, believe me I understand the hyper competitive professional athlete lockeroom vibe is not getting round a camp fire singing Kumbaya. There will be arguments, there will be disputes, there will be guys who don't like each other or whatever. But threatening to hit someone's mother? It's totally unnecessary. Go after Martin's weight, go after his heart, go after his lack of effort... whatever. But the idea that he is motivated to address these things by a teammate threatening to strike his mom? It's toxic nonsense and it doesn't need to exist.

Edited Tuesday at 04:26 PM by GunnerBill

[Beck Water]

18 hours ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

I am going off my memory and a quick search of articles from them. Both articles I read then stated Martin got the investigation started by claiming he was being bullied. If there was another reason the investigation started I will accept it but everything stems from the initial complaint of bullying according to the articles from 2013. 

 

Actually, Martin got the investigation started by leaving the team.  Martin sat down at the OL table for lunch, and the entire OL got up and left the table, leaving him alone.  Martin responded by throwing down his tray and leaving the building and staying away.  

 

Since Martin was a high 2nd round pick of whom much was expected, that, not unnaturally, had Dolphins brass, Martin's large and successful family, and everyone else wondering "just what's up with that?" 

 

And we were off.

Edited Tuesday at 04:16 PM by Beck Water