Jonathan Martin and Incognito Bullygate back in the news

[Beck Water]

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It's 2025, it shouldn't be the norm. It is toxic. And we shouldn't just accept it will always exist because there is no reason why it should. 

 

EDIT: and for clarity, believe me I understand the hyper competitive professional athlete lockeroom vibe is not getting round a camp fire singing Kumbaya. There will be arguments, there will be disputes, there will be guys who don't like each other or whatever. But threatening to hit someone's mother? It's totally unnecessary. Go after Martin's weight, go after his heart, go after his lack of effort... whatever. But the idea that he is motivated to address these things by a teammate threatening to strike his mom? It's toxic nonsense and it doesn't need to exist.

 

Don't forget the stuff about "running train" on Martin's sister.
 

Quote

“We are going to run train on your sister. . . . She loves me. I am going to f–k her without a condom and c– in her c—.”

 

[Ted Striker]

19 hours ago, appoo said:

The incident started when Martin checked himself into a hospital.

 

A hospital! What is it?

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Don't forget the stuff about "running train" on Martin's sister.

 

Yea I just honestly don't get it. And to the "you don't understand american football locker rooms, this ain't soccer" I always remember Warren Sapp when he used to be on NFL Gameday morning whenever any of these situations arose used to say "only three things were off limits in my locker room don't go after someone's faith, don't go after someone's family and don't go after someone's money."

[Brand J]

35 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

Doesn't mean they don't experience it as humiliating and inappropriate

Does mean that if they "read the room" and see management as condoning or even encouraging that kind of behavior, they're not gonna bother reporting it.

Yeah, that’s the thing… the trainer’s room isn’t only Incognito and the assistant trainer, it’s multiple trainers, multiple athletes, positional coaches, etc. I of course don’t know how this trainer felt, but if he/she was laughing along and dishing out comebacks of their own, it’s not going to pass as bullying. If it was a situation where it was clearly uncomfortable for the assistant trainer (and thereby uncomfortable for others in the room), somebody would’ve told Incognito to shut the hell up.

 

I take the words he said to the trainer (and Martin) as inappropriate, over the top language, but I struggle to believe Incognito said these things with malice or ill intent. In other words, I don’t believe that he believed what he was saying. I can’t paint him as a “bad person” because of his language, his actions and almost universal dislike of others who’ve associated with him would ring truer to me.

[Bill from NYC]

4 hours ago, colin said:

 

so, i'm going to differ from you on one thing (to a degree) roids don't change people, they just supercharge them.  canseco was shy as a youth, and out of control as a big time pro, but he's an ego maniac even off the roids (i knew a neighbor of his, really rich area, the neighbor really got a kick out of jose but had stories which amused him about what a total over the top goof he was, and that's years after retiring and at the very least, doing way less roids).  foster, canseco, and richie are all jerks/psychos, a holes, basically the stereo type of people who would be locked up if they weren't so good at sports.  i also think these guys use a lot of other recreational drugs which do worse things to their minds than roids do, by a lot.

 

I partially agree. Jumbo Elliot got into trouble when he was on the Jets. He and three other people destroyed a bar in Long Beach. https://nypost.com/1999/07/11/unnecessary-roughness-by-jets-trio/ Let's just say that I am also aware of a couple of lesser unreported incidents.

 

That said, several years ago I sat with him at a coffee shop which he owned, and spoke with him for approx. 30 minutes. He was 100% normal. He had lost at least 50 pounds. He donated money to the volunteer firefighters and owned 2 businesses in the community. He told me about how it was to play against Bruce Smith, and that he had coached Jason Peters when he was a udfa. When I commented how strong Peters was, he implied that he was stronger lol. Maybe he was.

 

I'm certainly not a doctor, but I suspect that being off the roids (and almost certainly booze as well) contributed to this drastic change of behavior.

Edited Tuesday at 07:42 PM by Bill from NYC

[RkFast]

I think its cute that so many think these players are upstanding moral citizens and comport themselves like accountants when the cameras are off and go to bed and say their prayers after games and...for Heaven's sake....NEVER did anything "questionable" in college. 

 

Was Richie on the bad end of the spectrum and probably deserved a kick to the head from Martin and a reprimand from his coach? Sure. But lets not pretend these guys are choir boys, tho OK?

Edited Tuesday at 06:57 PM by RkFast

[BuffaloMatt]

Love me some Icognito- Shady loved him too!

[RkFast]

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

It had to do with how Incognito and his teammates, huge powerful athletes, treated the working guys in the building.  From a summary:

"We find that the Assistant Trainer repeatedly was targeted with racial slurs and other racially derogatory language."

 

Here you have supposedly grown-ass men, bullying an assistant trainer who is paid peanuts compared to them and is physically smaller and weaker.

 

 

 

I recall an episode of "If the Walls in Buffalo Could Talk" podcast, where an assistant to John Butler was on and gave testimony that Butler literally destroyed the guy, regularly.  You think this is limited to RI?

[Mango]

 

2 hours ago, Brand J said:

Yeah, that’s the thing… the trainer’s room isn’t only Incognito and the assistant trainer, it’s multiple trainers, multiple athletes, positional coaches, etc. I of course don’t know how this trainer felt, but if he/she was laughing along and dishing out comebacks of their own, it’s not going to pass as bullying. If it was a situation where it was clearly uncomfortable for the assistant trainer (and thereby uncomfortable for others in the room), somebody would’ve told Incognito to shut the hell up.

 

I take the words he said to the trainer (and Martin) as inappropriate, over the top language, but I struggle to believe Incognito said these things with malice or ill intent. In other words, I don’t believe that he believed what he was saying. I can’t paint him as a “bad person” because of his language, his actions and almost universal dislike of others who’ve associated with him would ring truer to me.

 

This is bonkers. His actions? His words? His intent? 

He is literally saying somebody else is responsible for all of this, when all we are debating here is the things he literally said and did. It might be one thing if he went the Michael Vick route. Opened up a facility to rehabilitate those with TBI's or mental illness. If he spent a bunch of time working within communities dominated by POC. 

But he doesn't. He is whining that somebody else is responsible for the world finding out about the stuff he did. 

And frankly, shame on Eric Wood for cosigning it.  The only thing I find more frustrating in all of this than Incognito passing on the blame is other people doing the same. I just can't wrap my head around reading the 144 pages of the Wells report and all his arrests and going "Oh yeah that Richie Incognito, real good dude without any malice, Jonathan Martin ruined that mans reputation". It just feels so gaslighting.  

 

[Breakout Squad]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Don't forget the stuff about "running train" on Martin's sister.
 

 

I tell my friends that all the time. It means you care 😄

[colin]

42 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I partially agree. Jumbo Elliot got into trouble when he was on the Jets. He and three other people destroyed a bar in Long Beach. https://nypost.com/1999/07/11/unnecessary-roughness-by-jets-trio/ Let's just say that I am also aware of a couple of lesser unreported incidents.

 

That said, several years ago I sat with him at a coffee shop which he owned, and spoke with him for approx. 30 minutes. He was 100% normal. He had lost at least 50 pounds. He donated monbey to the volunteer firefighters and owned 2 businesses in the community. He told me about how it was to play against Bruce Smith, and that he had coached Jason Peters when he was a udfa. When I commented how strong Peters was, he implied that he was stronger lol. Maybe he was.

 

I'm certainly not a doctor, but I suspect that being off the roids (and almost certainly booze as well) contributed to this drastic change of behavior.

 

if that's the case, i'd say not boozing and being grown up is 90% of it, 10% is the roids.

 

 

[Beck Water]

12 minutes ago, Breakout Squad said:

I tell my friends that all the time. It means you care 😄

 

And that you have Gold Plated medical insurance

[Beck Water]

33 minutes ago, RkFast said:

 

I recall an episode of "If the Walls in Buffalo Could Talk" podcast, where an assistant to John Butler was on and gave testimony that Butler literally destroyed the guy, regularly.  You think this is limited to RI?

 

I don't care if it's limited to Richie Incognito.  If it happens, it's wrong.  "Whataboutism" is no defense.  (And by the way, "testimony" is a specific word with connotations of a formal, even a sworn, statement - which appearing on Sal's podcast is not)

 

Does it really need to be said?  If Bills DB coach John Butler was "literally destroying" his assistant, not with criticism of his OJP  or banter but with racial or sexual slurs, then John Butler is a jerk and maybe there's a reason he and the Bills "mutually decided to part ways" and why he was out of the NFL last year.

Edited Tuesday at 07:32 PM by Beck Water

[Orlando Buffalo]

14 hours ago, Mango said:

 

Should Incognito have been suspended for what showed up in the Wells report?

This is my last post I this topic, which will be a repeat of my initial post, this reminds me of the Johny Depp Amber Heard case, both of them kept talking and both kept looking worse and worse. I am not defending either of them and never did.

[RkFast]

19 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't care if it's limited to Richie Incognito.  If it happens, it's wrong.  "Whataboutism" is no defense.  (And by the way, "testimony" is a specific word with connotations of a formal, even a sworn, statement - which appearing on Sal's podcast is not)

 

Does it really need to be said?  If Bills DB coach John Butler was "literally destroying" his assistant, not with criticism of his OJP  or banter but with racial or sexual slurs, then John Butler is a jerk and maybe there's a reason he and the Bills "mutually decided to part ways" and why he was out of the NFL last year.

 

Im talking about Butler the GM, not the coach.

 

And I dont think its "whataboutism" per se. For me, its about putting in place a standard for individuals that does not make sense. Yes, as time marches on, society's tolerance for lousy behavior changes. But again...we cant pretend these guys are accountants, either. 

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

 

This is bonkers. His actions? His words? His intent? 

He is literally saying somebody else is responsible for all of this, when all we are debating here is the things he literally said and did. It might be one thing if he went the Michael Vick route. Opened up a facility to rehabilitate those with TBI's or mental illness. If he spent a bunch of time working within communities dominated by POC. 

But he doesn't. He is whining that somebody else is responsible for the world finding out about the stuff he did. 

And frankly, shame on Eric Wood for cosigning it.  The only thing I find more frustrating in all of this than Incognito passing on the blame is other people doing the same. I just can't wrap my head around reading the 144 pages of the Wells report and all his arrests and going "Oh yeah that Richie Incognito, real good dude without any malice, Jonathan Martin ruined that mans reputation". It just feels so gaslighting.  

 

You know what’s bonkers? Making definitive statements about someone’s character when you haven’t been in the rooms to fully grasp what happened. Is Richie an a**hole? A jerk? Yep, sure looks like it, but it doesn’t automatically mean he’s a despicable guy. Same could be said for Aaron Rodgers. Some people have said Jim Kelly was a jerk. Michael Jordan was called a bully by some of his teammates. Does that mean all of them are bad guys? We don’t know these people. 

 

He’s not apologizing because he doesn’t believe he did anything wrong. He should apologize, even if - in his eyes - the situation was blown out of proportion and - in Martin’s own words - the Wells report was a clown show. Eric Wood is the main guy to come out and defend Richie, but has there been a slew of other players that said “this guy is cancerous”? Richie Incognito is “scum of the Earth”? Not to my knowledge, all I see is a former teammate defending him. 
 

Without a full understanding of the situation, I won’t make definitive statements either way on who Richie Incognito is as a person, but you do you. 

Edited Tuesday at 08:42 PM by Brand J

[muppy]

what I'm not reading much about is the mental health issues BOTH guys had back then. And hopefully both in a much healthier place now. It's easy to be cynical. But Im an optimist.

 

physically, emotionally and spiritually that situation needed healing and medical intervention/ treatment

 

to say bullies don't have empathy seems clear. I think you need to accept responsibility and work towards becoming healthier in all those same areas

 

That will tell me the true intentions of what is going on here.

 

Forgiveness and move ON ultimately is what they should do. Again tio do that you need to be in a better mental place

 

I hope that for both of them. Regardless of what happened then. The past is the past. You can't change it. Keep it moving and shed the negativity of the past from who you are NOW

 

that's called redemption.

 

m

[Mike in Horseheads]

6 hours ago, Ted Striker said:

 

A hospital! What is it?

I got that even if nobody else did.   great movie! 

 

[boyst]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I just honestly don't get it. And to the "you don't understand american football locker rooms, this ain't soccer" I always remember Warren Sapp when he used to be on NFL Gameday morning whenever any of these situations arose used to say "only three things were off limits in my locker room don't go after someone's faith, don't go after someone's family and don't go after someone's money."

Let me tell ya about Warren Sapp... Lololol

A girl I went to high school with, younger sister who was maybe 19-21 when he was in his later career would literally come in and pay to take random girls home from the bar.  Yeah, his morality is awesome.

[GunnerBill]

34 minutes ago, boyst said:

Let me tell ya about Warren Sapp... Lololol

A girl I went to high school with, younger sister who was maybe 19-21 when he was in his later career would literally come in and pay to take random girls home from the bar.  Yeah, his morality is awesome.

 

It isn't a morality or non-morality point. I am not holding Sapp up as an angel. I am well aware he isn't. But he has disputed the idea that there are no rules between teammates in a locker room and all is fair in the name of "motivation" etc. 

 

It is prefectly capable of getting after a guy whether banter or an attempt to light a fire without going after his family.