Buffalo716 Posted February 14 Posted February 14 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said: That's not the point. It's not about finding someone better than Coleman later in the draft. It's about not taking guys like Coleman early in the draft but going after elite talent. So instead of trading back for Coleman, trade up for a Brian Thomas Jr. Use the higher picks for BPA not culture or scheme fit. Things like best player available is subjective Five different scouts might not agree on who the best player is lol you get pro bowl type players late in the draft too.. tons of studs go in round 4-5 Why did all of the GMS pass for five rounds on AB? Elite talent Everybody in the NFL has extreme talent.. everybody.. it comes down to the players work ethic, scheme fit, usage There's plenty of fifth round guys who become NFL studs and plenty of first round people who thought were blue chip that bust Elite talent is subjective because Sammy Watkins was an elite talent that turned out to be trash Edited February 14 by Buffalo716 1 Quote
Billsflyer12 Posted February 14 Posted February 14 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Now look up how many coaches have won 5 straight division titles and were fired. Did I state for him to be fired? Just passing on a fact is all. Maybe Sean will make NFL history. BTW, John Fox with the Broncos coached 4 seasons, won 4 division titles, won .720 of games, 1 Super Bowl appearance and was fired after year 4. Gary Kubiak came in the next season and won the Super Bowl. Edited February 14 by Billsflyer12 1 Quote
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 14 Posted February 14 10 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said: Cool. The follow up should have been well which wr that was drafted in the 4th round or later in the 2024 draft should the bills have taken instead? Go ahead and tell me which of the players taken later are better than coleman on draft day and going forward. Thats a tough question because I know Keon Coleman was basically the WR many fans didn’t want anywhere in the draft. 1 Quote
Straight Hucklebuck Posted February 14 Posted February 14 Drafting Ed Oliver and passing on Christian Wilkins, Jeff Simmons, Dexter Lawrence doesn't look good. 2 1 Quote
folz Posted February 14 Posted February 14 So, our friend Tyler Dunne is at it again. Once again, talking to someone fired by Beane and McDermott to get an "unbiased" view of the front office/coaching staff. Monos never even worked with Brandon Beane, so how does he know anything about what is going on in the building (as far as who is making picks, how they make their picks, how qualified Beane is, etc.). He's never been a GM himself, but finds it easy to say it is lazy GMing to go after Garrett or having gone for Von? This isn't insider stuff, it's just two guys and their slightly biased opinions. Now is he correct on a couple of things? Sure, I don't think we should pay Cook 15 million either and the early picks of the Beane era (outside of Josh) have not been elite, difference makers (i.e., we need better early drafting). But again, that is obvious to everyone and has been discussed here often. This is no revelation or insider knowledge. So, Beane isn't a trusted talent evaluator, but Monos is? Let's look at the top draft picks of the Monos/Whaley years to see how much weight we should give to Monos' opinion. While he was director of player personnel (prior to McDermott's arrival): Round 1 (pick #) Round 2 (pick #) Round 3 (pick #) 2013: E. J. Manuel (16) Robert Woods (41) Marquise Goodwin (78) Kiko Alonzo (46) 2014: Sammy Watkins (4) Cyrus Kuandjio (44) Preston Brown (73) 2015: No 1st due to Sammy Ronald Darby (50) John Miller (81) 2016: Shaq Lawson (19) Reggie Ragland (41) Adolphus Washington (80) So, Robert Woods and............Shaq was a decent player, but never the pass rusher we needed; Kiko had a great rookie season but only ended up starting 4 years in the league total. And the average draft pick # of the first three rounds in those years was 47.75. The average draft position for Beane in the first three rounds has been 57.01. Now, granted, it's 7 drafts instead of 4 (so more picks), but the players that Beane has drafted in the first three rounds (that weren't busts): Josh Allen, James Cook, Spencer Brown, Terrell Bernard, Ed Oliver, Greg Rousseau, O'Cyrus Torrence, Dalton Kincaid, Dawson Knox, A.J. Epenesa, Tremaine Edmunds, Harrison Phillips, Devin Singletary, Dorian Williams, Keon Coleman, Dewayne Carter. I agree that we need more elite/impact players early in the draft, but that is like 10-11 guys who are starting in the league, and another 6-7 guys that play significant time. A lot better than what Monos' group has to show (while picking on average 10 places higher). Really, the only "busts" in the first three rounds, or guys that didn't become solid contributors would be Boogie, Kaiir, Cody Ford, and Zack Moss. And yet, they are all still in the league, and two of them at least are still getting playing time. Look, we can all agree that we need more high-impact players at the top of the draft, but you do also have to take into account where we are drafting. After the Super Bowl, people have been praising Philadelphia for drafting the players (some studs) that helped get them there (and fair enough). But, even though Philly also won the Bowl a couple of years ago, they also had some down seasons over the last 5 years. Over the last 5 years, Philadelphia's average draft pick # for the first and second rounds is 28.6. Over the last 5 years, Buffalo's average draft pick # for the first and second rounds is 45.33. The highest pick the Bills have had in the last 5 years was pick #23. Philadelphia has had 5 picks over the last 5 years higher than #23. They had two top-10 picks and three picks in the top-13 over that span. Everything in perspective. 1 1 1 4 Quote
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 14 Posted February 14 1 minute ago, Billsflyer12 said: Did I state for him to be fired? just passing on a fact is all. Maybe Sean will make NFL history. The Bills will definitely have to go against the norm, even Josh Allen. Not many QBs win their 1st Super Bowl this late in their career. Quote
MikePJ76 Posted February 14 Posted February 14 Just now, Jrb1979 said: That's not the point. It's not about finding someone better than Coleman later in the draft. It's about not taking guys like Coleman early in the draft but going after elite talent. So instead of trading back for Coleman, trade up for a Brian Thomas Jr. Use the higher picks for BPA not culture or scheme fit. if it's not the point why did he say it. If his stance is that coleman or players like him can be had in the 4th or later, then he should have named the player that went in the 4th this past year that was better on draft day and has a better future going forward. Seems he is just throwing out cliche's. also, Your comment on culture is nonsense. One of the best things about this team this year and going forward is the culture because they took good players who are good guys and are all about the team.r Dewayne Carter for instance played the 3 and 5 techs in college in a 4-2-5 nickel scheme similar to buffalo's. He played inside and outside. He is an all american 3 time captain. He is going to be a major asset to this team going forward. Is he ever going to be Warren Sapp at the 3 tech, nope. Most guys in the third round are not. and again, Jim Mono's and guys like him obsess over things like coleman because he is not a flashy all pro in year 1 while ignoring draft picks like Ray Davis and Tylan Grable. That grable pick in the 6th round at 204 may turn out to be huge in a few years. 1 Quote
Straight Hucklebuck Posted February 14 Posted February 14 1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Thats a tough question because I know Keon Coleman was basically the WR many fans didn’t want anywhere in the draft. Because they read guys like Matt Harmon and Lance Zierlein who say - ehh he can't really separate so he needs to transition to the slot. And then you say - wait we already have Khalil Shakir for that. Then your GM trades with Kansas City and they take the fastest player in the history of the combine. And then your GM says he was disappointed with Keon after the wrist injury. What do you want fans to think? 🤷♂️ 1 1 Quote
MikePJ76 Posted February 14 Posted February 14 5 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: WRs that were available when the Bills were on the clock at #27: Xavier Worthy Ricky Pearsall Xavier Legette Ladd McConkey Ja'Lynn Polk Adonai Mitchell Jermaine Burton Roman Wilson Jalen McMillan Luke McCaffrey Troy Franklin Javon Baker Devontez Walker Jacob Cowling Anthony Gould Ainias Smith Jamari Thrash Bub Means Jha'Quan Jackson Malik Washington Johnny Wilson Casey Washington Tejhaun Palmer Jordan Whittington Ryan Flournoy Brenden Rice Devaughn Vele Tahj Washington Cornelius Johnson There is the list. Once again, the details are not your strong suit. Quote
Billsflyer12 Posted February 14 Posted February 14 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: The Bills will definitely have to go against the norm, even Josh Allen. Not many QBs win their 1st Super Bowl this late in their career. I believe no coach and QB combo has won their 1st Super Bowl after 5 seasons together. BTW, John Fox with the Broncos coached 4 seasons, won 4 division titles, won .720 of games, 1 Super Bowl appearance and was fired after year 4. Gary Kubiak came in the next season and won the Super Bowl. Edited February 14 by Billsflyer12 Quote
Straight Hucklebuck Posted February 14 Posted February 14 8 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said: Once again, the details are not your strong suit. Once again you make up a scenario in your head about 4th Rounders when there were other options for Beane at #27 overall. You're the one making the case for Dewayne Carter as a valuable piece going forward. 95th overall pick that couldn't get on the field for the Playoffs. 1 Quote
Aussie Joe Posted February 14 Posted February 14 10 minutes ago, folz said: So, our friend Tyler Dunne is at it again. Once again, talking to someone fired by Beane and McDermott to get an "unbiased" view of the front office/coaching staff. Monos never even worked with Brandon Beane, so how does he know anything about what is going on in the building (as far as who is making picks, how they make their picks, how qualified Beane is, etc.). He's never been a GM himself, but finds it easy to say it is lazy GMing to go after Garrett or having gone for Von? This isn't insider stuff, it's just two guys and their slightly biased opinions. Now is he correct on a couple of things? Sure, I don't think we should pay Cook 15 million either and the early picks of the Beane era (outside of Josh) have not been elite, difference makers (i.e., we need better early drafting). But again, that is obvious to everyone and has been discussed here often. This is no revelation or insider knowledge. So, Beane isn't a trusted talent evaluator, but Monos is? Let's look at the top draft picks of the Monos/Whaley years to see how much weight we should give to Monos' opinion. While he was director of player personnel (prior to McDermott's arrival): Round 1 (pick #) Round 2 (pick #) Round 3 (pick #) 2013: E. J. Manuel (16) Robert Woods (41) Marquise Goodwin (78) Kiko Alonzo (46) 2014: Sammy Watkins (4) Cyrus Kuandjio (44) Preston Brown (73) 2015: No 1st due to Sammy Ronald Darby (50) John Miller (81) 2016: Shaq Lawson (19) Reggie Ragland (41) Adolphus Washington (80) So, Robert Woods and............Shaq was a decent player, but never the pass rusher we needed; Kiko had a great rookie season but only ended up starting 4 years in the league total. And the average draft pick # of the first three rounds in those years was 47.75. The average draft position for Beane in the first three rounds has been 57.01. Now, granted, it's 7 drafts instead of 4 (so more picks), but the players that Beane has drafted in the first three rounds (that weren't busts): Josh Allen, James Cook, Spencer Brown, Terrell Bernard, Ed Oliver, Greg Rousseau, O'Cyrus Torrence, Dalton Kincaid, Dawson Knox, A.J. Epenesa, Tremaine Edmunds, Harrison Phillips, Devin Singletary, Dorian Williams, Keon Coleman, Dewayne Carter. I agree that we need more elite/impact players early in the draft, but that is like 10-11 guys who are starting in the league, and another 6-7 guys that play significant time. A lot better than what Monos' group has to show (while picking on average 10 places higher). Really, the only "busts" in the first three rounds, or guys that didn't become solid contributors would be Boogie, Kaiir, Cody Ford, and Zack Moss. And yet, they are all still in the league, and two of them at least are still getting playing time. Look, we can all agree that we need more high-impact players at the top of the draft, but you do also have to take into account where we are drafting. After the Super Bowl, people have been praising Philadelphia for drafting the players (some studs) that helped get them there (and fair enough). But, even though Philly also won the Bowl a couple of years ago, they also had some down seasons over the last 5 years. Over the last 5 years, Philadelphia's average draft pick # for the first and second rounds is 28.6. Over the last 5 years, Buffalo's average draft pick # for the first and second rounds is 45.33. The highest pick the Bills have had in the last 5 years was pick #23. Philadelphia has had 5 picks over the last 5 years higher than #23. They had two top-10 picks and three picks in the top-13 over that span. Everything in perspective. Monos was fired .., he paid the price … Moving onto Beane … these are his first picks in the draft since Josh Allen Ed Oliver AJE Rousseau Elam Kincaid Coleman … What are your thoughts ? Quote
Straight Hucklebuck Posted February 14 Posted February 14 16 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Elite talent is subjective because Sammy Watkins was an elite talent that turned out to be trash That happens when you sit in your room and drink yourself into a stupor every night. 1 1 Quote
gonzo1105 Posted February 14 Posted February 14 He is right when it comes to the early vs late picks. Usually the GM and Coach and top front office guys are seeing the early prospect while the scouts take over on Day 3. Maybe Beane and McDermott should defer to the scouts in the early rounds Quote
KOKBILLS Posted February 14 Posted February 14 15 minutes ago, folz said: So, our friend Tyler Dunne is at it again. Once again, talking to someone fired by Beane and McDermott to get an "unbiased" view of the front office/coaching staff. Monos never even worked with Brandon Beane, so how does he know anything about what is going on in the building (as far as who is making picks, how they make their picks, how qualified Beane is, etc.). He's never been a GM himself, but finds it easy to say it is lazy GMing to go after Garrett or having gone for Von? This isn't insider stuff, it's just two guys and their slightly biased opinions. Now is he correct on a couple of things? Sure, I don't think we should pay Cook 15 million either and the early picks of the Beane era (outside of Josh) have not been elite, difference makers (i.e., we need better early drafting). But again, that is obvious to everyone and has been discussed here often. This is no revelation or insider knowledge. So, Beane isn't a trusted talent evaluator, but Monos is? Let's look at the top draft picks of the Monos/Whaley years to see how much weight we should give to Monos' opinion. While he was director of player personnel (prior to McDermott's arrival): Round 1 (pick #) Round 2 (pick #) Round 3 (pick #) 2013: E. J. Manuel (16) Robert Woods (41) Marquise Goodwin (78) Kiko Alonzo (46) 2014: Sammy Watkins (4) Cyrus Kuandjio (44) Preston Brown (73) 2015: No 1st due to Sammy Ronald Darby (50) John Miller (81) 2016: Shaq Lawson (19) Reggie Ragland (41) Adolphus Washington (80) So, Robert Woods and............Shaq was a decent player, but never the pass rusher we needed; Kiko had a great rookie season but only ended up starting 4 years in the league total. And the average draft pick # of the first three rounds in those years was 47.75. The average draft position for Beane in the first three rounds has been 57.01. Now, granted, it's 7 drafts instead of 4 (so more picks), but the players that Beane has drafted in the first three rounds (that weren't busts): Josh Allen, James Cook, Spencer Brown, Terrell Bernard, Ed Oliver, Greg Rousseau, O'Cyrus Torrence, Dalton Kincaid, Dawson Knox, A.J. Epenesa, Tremaine Edmunds, Harrison Phillips, Devin Singletary, Dorian Williams, Keon Coleman, Dewayne Carter. I agree that we need more elite/impact players early in the draft, but that is like 10-11 guys who are starting in the league, and another 6-7 guys that play significant time. A lot better than what Monos' group has to show (while picking on average 10 places higher). Really, the only "busts" in the first three rounds, or guys that didn't become solid contributors would be Boogie, Kaiir, Cody Ford, and Zack Moss. And yet, they are all still in the league, and two of them at least are still getting playing time. Look, we can all agree that we need more high-impact players at the top of the draft, but you do also have to take into account where we are drafting. After the Super Bowl, people have been praising Philadelphia for drafting the players (some studs) that helped get them there (and fair enough). But, even though Philly also won the Bowl a couple of years ago, they also had some down seasons over the last 5 years. Over the last 5 years, Philadelphia's average draft pick # for the first and second rounds is 28.6. Over the last 5 years, Buffalo's average draft pick # for the first and second rounds is 45.33. The highest pick the Bills have had in the last 5 years was pick #23. Philadelphia has had 5 picks over the last 5 years higher than #23. They had two top-10 picks and three picks in the top-13 over that span. Everything in perspective. He should have listened to me in 2016... 1 Quote
Jrb1979 Posted February 14 Posted February 14 8 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said: if it's not the point why did he say it. If his stance is that coleman or players like him can be had in the 4th or later, then he should have named the player that went in the 4th this past year that was better on draft day and has a better future going forward. Seems he is just throwing out cliche's. also, Your comment on culture is nonsense. One of the best things about this team this year and going forward is the culture because they took good players who are good guys and are all about the team.r Dewayne Carter for instance played the 3 and 5 techs in college in a 4-2-5 nickel scheme similar to buffalo's. He played inside and outside. He is an all american 3 time captain. He is going to be a major asset to this team going forward. Is he ever going to be Warren Sapp at the 3 tech, nope. Most guys in the third round are not. and again, Jim Mono's and guys like him obsess over things like coleman because he is not a flashy all pro in year 1 while ignoring draft picks like Ray Davis and Tylan Grable. That grable pick in the 6th round at 204 may turn out to be huge in a few years. It's great they have a good culture and good players. They don't win you Super Bowls. Look at the past winners. All had playmakers on both sides of the ball. Outside of Allen they lack much for playmakers. That was more the point with Coleman. His type of WR you can find in lower rounds on average. Guys like Brian Thomas Jr are only available at the top of the draft. While Coleman will most likely be a good player, my bet is on Thomas having better numbers. Quote
Aussie Joe Posted February 14 Posted February 14 1 minute ago, gonzo1105 said: He is right when it comes to the early vs late picks. Usually the GM and Coach and top front office guys are seeing the early prospect while the scouts take over on Day 3. Maybe Beane and McDermott should defer to the scouts in the early rounds Im assuming they “defer to the scouts “ and trust the board on the Day 3 picks where they have had some more success Quote
SirAndrew Posted February 14 Posted February 14 I somewhat agree, but it’s awfully rich for anyone who worked with this team from 2013-2017 to make a comment regarding front office failure. Quote
DapperCam Posted February 14 Posted February 14 2 hours ago, bills6969 said: Wait - was this guy head of player personnel when we drafted EJ manual in the first round? If so, no credibility Didn’t Buddy Nix basically force that pick anyway? Quote
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