build through the trenches

[Alphadawg7]

On 2/11/2025 at 3:42 AM, Pete said:

Beane has spent plenty of resources on DL-Rousseau, Oliver 1st round picks.  AJ 2nd round pick. $140 million Von.  High draft picks Boogie, Harrison.  FA signing Williams, Star, etc  Very little return on investment.

 

The problem is not that we ignore the DL.  The problem is missing again and again.

 

Ive always been a big Beane fan.  But his failures on DL, with our 1st round picks, and ignoring WR, my patience is wearing thin.

Most those picks or signings were 3 to 7 years ago.  You guys gotta stop living in the past.  
 

3 of our last 5 first rounds picks were weapons for Allen.  4 of our last 6 picks in first two rounds were offense.  One draft in the last 3 years was almost all offense.
 

Yet there is a his myth we focus too much on addressing the D and the offense isn’t good enough.

 

Meanwhile Bills have scored the most points in the NFL over the last 5 years.  This years offense was the 16th best in NFL history and set numerous records as a team and as individuals.  
 

But on defense the Bills were almost dead last in both first downs allowed and 3rd down conversions.  Bills have given up 35 points per game to the Chiefs in their 4 playoff losses to them.  Yet the Chiefs are 1-3 in the next game after beating the Bills.  And in those 3 losses, the Chiefs averaged just 17 points per game the very next week after averaging 35 against us.

 

I get the concern based on the past, but not addressing the D is literally the worst thing the Bills could do this offseason.  Our defense is the sole reason we haven’t been to the SB and it’s indisputable.  

Edited February 13 by Alphadawg7

[Richard Noggin]

41 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Most those picks or signings were 3 to 7 years ago.  You guys gotta stop living in the past.  
 

3 of our last 5 first rounds picks were weapons for Allen.  4 of our last 6 picks in first rounds were offense.  One draft in the last 3 years was almost all offense.
 

Yet there is a his myth we focus too

much on addressing the D and the offense isn’t good enough.

 

Meanwhile Bills have scored the most points in the NFL over the last 5 years.  This years offense was the 16th best in NFL history and set numerous records as a team and as individuals.  
 

But on defense the Bills were almost dead last in both first downs allowed and 3rd down conversions.  Bills have given up 35 points per game to the Chiefs in their 4 playoff losses to them.  Yet the Chiefs are 1-3 in the next game after beating the Bills.  And in those 3 losses, the Chiefs averaged just 17 points per game the very next week after averaging 35 against us.

 

I get the concern based on the past, but not addressing the D is literally the worst thing the Bills could do this offseason.  Our defense is the sole reason we haven’t been to the SB and it’s indisputable.  

 

The bolded is just completely inaccurate. What follows has some merit, but wtf on the premise. (just realized you're likely including Diggs as a 1st round pick spent on an offensive weapon, and I guess that's fine, but the below numbers don't change enough to support your central claim.)

 

Since 2018 it's actually 2 out of 5 1st round picks on offense OVERALL, including Allen. Over that same period, it's 6 out of 13 in the first two rounds spent on offense OVERALL.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/draft.htm

 

Edited February 13 by Richard Noggin

[Thrivefourfive]

On 2/11/2025 at 3:42 AM, Pete said:

Beane has spent plenty of resources on DL-Rousseau, Oliver 1st round picks.  AJ 2nd round pick. $140 million Von.  High draft picks Boogie, Harrison.  FA signing Williams, Star, etc  Very little return on investment.

 

The problem is not that we ignore the DL.  The problem is missing again and again.

 

Ive always been a big Beane fan.  But his failures on DL, with our 1st round picks, and ignoring WR, my patience is wearing thin.

Espinesa is second round pick. I keep forgetting that. Man Beane sucks at drafting rounds 1-2

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

The bolded is just completely inaccurate. What follows has some merit, but wtf on the premise. (just realized you're likely including Diggs as a 1st round pick spent on an offensive weapon, and I guess that's fine, but the below numbers don't change enough to support your central claim.)

 

Since 2018 it's actually 2 out of 5 1st round picks on offense OVERALL, including Allen. Over that same period, it's 6 out of 13 in the first two rounds spent on offense OVERALL.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/draft.htm

 

 

There was a typo...its supposed to have said 4 of the last 6 in the first TWO rounds.  Thanks for pointing that out, I will fix it.

 

And as far as our first go, no its 3 of our last 5 because yes Diggs counts and so does Keon.  In fact, its Diggs, Kincaid, and Keon...yes I get we traded back with Keon to make it "technically" our 2nd...but it was our first rounder that we used to get him, especially since Beane was taking him at 32 if it were not for Panthers 1 pick swap to where we get our same guy.  I don't care about semantics like some others do, that was how we spent our first round pick...to get a WR regardless if it was at 32 or pick 33.   

 

And as I said above, we used 4 of the last 6 picks in the first 2 rounds (thats the last 3 drafts) on offense:  Kincaid, Cook, Keon, O'Cyrus.  Not to mention we already used this years 3rd on Cooper, also offense.

 

The facts are that Beane and this team have prioritized offense for the past 3 seasons.  The results:  Highest scoring offense in the NFL over the past 5 seasons, including fielding the 16th highest scoring offense in NFL history this year and most in Bills history.  And on the other side of the field?  We have given up 35 points per game to the Chiefs in our playoff losses to them (4 of them), we fielded a defense that was bottom of the league in first downs allowed and 3rd conversions.  We gave up 32 points to a team that didn't score 30 all season and that was down 34-0 in the second half of the Super Bowl a week later.  

 

It is unquestionable that defense has been the entire reason we have not reached a SB yet.  KC has knocked us out 4 times, and 3 of those times they went on to lose the very next week where their average PPG is 17 compared to the 35 they average against us the week before.  

Edited February 13 by Alphadawg7

[Pete]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Most those picks or signings were 3 to 7 years ago.  You guys gotta stop living in the past.  
 

 

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

 

 

And as I said above, we used 4 of the last 6 picks in the first 2 rounds (thats the last 3 drafts) on offense:  Kincaid, Cook, Keon, O'Cyrus.  Not to mention we already used this years 3rd on Cooper, also offense.

 

 

 

Meanwhile Bills have scored the most points in the NFL over the last 5 years.  This years offense was the 16th best in NFL history and set numerous records as a team and as individuals.  
 

Our defense is the sole reason we haven’t been to the SB and it’s indisputable. 

Beane has been the GM since 2018 so yes, 3-7 years is on his him.

 

Coleman was a 2nd round pick.

 

The only attempt Beane has had to get Josh a top 2 WR was for Diggs, and WR has woefully been neglected besides that.

 

The WR cupboard is empty, has been for years, and that’s on Beane.

 

2023 there was a run on WR, and Beane panicked and traded up for Kincaid.  We already had Knox, and rarely run 12 personal, still need an X WR.

 

2024 we are desperate for WR.  Beane trades back to top of 2nd round, which I’m ok with.  We pounded the table for an X WR.  That was the first pick, 2nd round.  Every team reset their boards, and that is a coveted draft spot.  I’m certain that Beane turned down trade offers, and instead drafted plodding Keon.  We are still desperate for an X WR.

 

Cooper was a panic trade, and Beane admitting he has failed the WR room.  Baltimore pummeled us, loading the box, and daring us to beat them deep.  Texans followed that blueprint, stifled our O, and beat us.  Jets followed that blueprint, and almost beat us.  It was more obvious than ever that our WR group is inadequate.  Beane panicked and traded a 3rd for an aging X WR.

 

The past two playoff exits are due to our offense.  Yes our D is Swiss cheese, but the past two playoffs the D put the offense in a position to win.

 

Mahomes only needed 13 seconds.  We have Josh Allen, 3:30 left, 3 TO, and only need a FG, and the offense failed.  The D put the O in a position to win, and the offense failed again.  Just like they did last playoffs.

 

I want every draft pick and FA $ spent to fix the D.  All I ask is for a skilled vertical X WR.

 

If you watch Bills football, you notice that there is zero separation and vertical component. Josh is amazing.  Give him some help

Dalton, Keon, AJ, Cooper, Roseau, etc- where were they in Chiefs game?

 

Yes we were highest scoring team.  Yes, Beane is missing in the first two rounds much too often.

[Alphadawg7]

30 minutes ago, Pete said:

Beane has been the GM since 2018 so yes, 3-7 years is on his him.

 

Coleman was a 2nd round pick.

 

The only attempt Beane has had to get Josh a top 2 WR was for Diggs, and WR has woefully been neglected besides that.

 

The WR cupboard is empty, has been for years, and that’s on Beane.

 

2023 there was a run on WR, and Beane panicked and traded up for Kincaid.  We already had Knox, and rarely run 12 personal, still need an X WR.

 

2024 we are desperate for WR.  Beane trades back to top of 2nd round, which I’m ok with.  We pounded the table for an X WR.  That was the first pick, 2nd round.  Every team reset their boards, and that is a coveted draft spot.  I’m certain that Beane turned down trade offers, and instead drafted plodding Keon.  We are still desperate for an X WR.

 

Cooper was a panic trade, and Beane admitting he has failed the WR room.  Baltimore pummeled us, loading the box, and daring us to beat them deep.  Texans followed that blueprint, stifled our O, and beat us.  Jets followed that blueprint, and almost beat us.  It was more obvious than ever that our WR group is inadequate.  Beane panicked and traded a 3rd for an aging X WR.

 

The past two playoff exits are due to our offense.  Yes our D is Swiss cheese, but the past two playoffs the D put the offense in a position to win.

 

Mahomes only needed 13 seconds.  We have Josh Allen, 3:30 left, 3 TO, and only need a FG, and the offense failed.  The D put the O in a position to win, and the offense failed again.  Just like they did last playoffs.

 

I want every draft pick and FA $ spent to fix the D.  All I ask is for a skilled vertical X WR.

 

If you watch Bills football, you notice that there is zero separation and vertical component. Josh is amazing.  Give him some help

Dalton, Keon, AJ, Cooper, Roseau, etc- where were they in Chiefs game?

 

Yes we were highest scoring team.  Yes, Beane is missing in the first two rounds much too often.

We had the 16th greatest offense in NFL History.  Offense is not the problem you think it is.  
 

Some of you seem more concerned that we don’t score points the way you want to score points than if we score points.  Because no one has scored more points than the Bills the last 5 seasons, we literally have the most points in the entire NFL.

[Pete]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

We had the 16th greatest offense in NFL History.  Offense is not the problem you think it is.  
 

Some of you seem more concerned that we don’t score points the way you want to score points than if we score points.  Because no one has scored more points than the Bills the last 5 seasons, we literally have the most points in the entire NFL.

That’s Josh Allen, our OL, and the RB room.  One can always be better, and you should always try and improve.  Imagine our offense if we had a WR that could take the top off.  James Cooks carries 22% of the time we’re in a stacked box.  A competent X WR opens up the middle for Knox and Dalton, and gives Cook more space to operate.  This simple addition would make the offense much, much better.  How can you argue against that?

It’s not about the most points in the season, it’s about the who has the most points each game.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

We had the 16th greatest offense in NFL History.  Offense is not the problem you think it is.  
 

Some of you seem more concerned that we don’t score points the way you want to score points than if we score points.  Because no one has scored more points than the Bills the last 5 seasons, we literally have the most points in the entire NFL.

thats your takeaway from my lucid, pragmatic post?  I never once disputed 16th greatest offense.

[DCofNC]

On 2/11/2025 at 9:32 AM, The Jokeman said:

Meanwhile the Chiefs are doing a great job with guys like Felix Anudike-Uzomah, Kingsley Suamataia/Wayna Morris and Skyy Moore. 

Yeah, fortunately for them, most of the other guys they swung for have turned out to be better than the rest of McBeans picks.

[finn]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

That’s Josh Allen, our OL, and the RB room.  One can always be better, and you should always try and improve.  Imagine our offense if we had a WR that could take the top off.  James Cooks carries 22% of the time we’re in a stacked box.  A competent X WR opens up the middle for Knox and Dalton, and gives Cook more space to operate.  This simple addition would make the offense much, much better.  How can you argue against that?

It’s not about the most points in the season, it’s about the who has the most points each game.

I do think Allen needs a WR1, which won't be easy to acquire, since he'll either be very expensive or high-round pick, neither of which the Bills can easily afford giving the alarming state of its defense. Aside from that need, they should be set on offense (given that Cook doesn't hold out) and can devote most of their attention and cap room to defense.

 

What will it take to turn this bottom-five unit into a top-five? An elite pass rusher (e.g., a Garrett or Crosby), AND a run-stuffing tackle, AND a top cornerback, along with quality safety, linebacker, and corner depth. In short, pretty much all ten draft picks and all the cap room Beane can create. 

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

That’s Josh Allen, our OL, and the RB room.  One can always be better, and you should always try and improve.  Imagine our offense if we had a WR that could take the top off.  James Cooks carries 22% of the time we’re in a stacked box.  A competent X WR opens up the middle for Knox and Dalton, and gives Cook more space to operate.  This simple addition would make the offense much, much better.  How can you argue against that?

It’s not about the most points in the season, it’s about the who has the most points each game.

Bills had the 16th most points per game of all time this year lol…most points per game of any team in the NFL over the last 5 seasons too.  We just lost after scoring 29 against a team that had not broke 30 the entire season and a game later was down 34-0 late in the game of a blow out loss thanks to the Eagles defense.
 

You want to worry about PPG than worry about our defense giving up 36 PPG in our 5 playoff losses the last 5 years.  Worry about our defense being bottom of the league in first downs allowed and 3rd down conversions which takes away offensive possessions from the offense to score because our defense can’t get off the field and get the ball back.

Yes we need to add a WR, but defense is absolutely a massive issue and by far the biggest reason we haven’t reached a SB and it’s not close.  So we can’t keep putting a band aid on it and expect different results.  We need to make some significant moves on defense, doesn’t mean don’t add a WR, it means we better also find a way to get better on defense or we are going to keep putting Josh in position to have to always be perfect, and that is a terrible place to put him in.

 

Edited February 13 by Alphadawg7

[Richard Noggin]

On 2/13/2025 at 3:00 AM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

There was a typo...its supposed to have said 4 of the last 6 in the first TWO rounds.  Thanks for pointing that out, I will fix it.

 

And as far as our first go, no its 3 of our last 5 because yes Diggs counts and so does Keon.  In fact, its Diggs, Kincaid, and Keon...yes I get we traded back with Keon to make it "technically" our 2nd...but it was our first rounder that we used to get him, especially since Beane was taking him at 32 if it were not for Panthers 1 pick swap to where we get our same guy.  I don't care about semantics like some others do, that was how we spent our first round pick...to get a WR regardless if it was at 32 or pick 33.   

 

 

Keon Coleman is NOT a 1st round investment, no matter what kind of gymnastics you want to do. He's just not. The fact that he is most definitively NOT a 1st round pick is why the Bills also have DeWayne Carter in the DT pipeline (and whoever they ended up with for that 4th rounder they acquired in the 2nd trade). It doesn't exactly obliterate your main point, but it does come off as a stretch to make this argument. It's not just the difference between pick 32 and 33, which is still meaningful with respect to value and strategy, it's also the difference between pick 28 and then 32 and then 33, and all the "value" derived from those moves. 

 

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Keon Coleman is NOT a 1st round investment, no matter what kind of gymnastics you want to do. He's just not. The fact that he is most definitively NOT a 1st round pick is why the Bills also have DeWayne Carter in the DT pipeline (and whoever they ended up with for that 4th rounder they acquired in the 2nd trade). It doesn't exactly obliterate your main point, but it does come off as a stretch to make this argument. It's not just the difference between pick 32 and 33, which is still meaningful with respect to value and strategy, it's also the difference between pick 28 and then 32 and then 33, and all the "value" derived from those moves. 

 

Bills used their first round pick on Keon.  There is no reality where that isn’t true just because you want to use semantics where the Panthers gave us a free pick to move 1 more pick back changing the technicality of what round that actual pick got booked in.  
 

The reality is the Bills had a first round pick and turned it into Keon whether it was pick 28, 32 or 33 is absolutely irrelevant.  If it makes you sleep better at night to say “Bills first pick” instead of “first round pick” because you want to pretend we didn’t actually take our first rounder and use it to get an offensive player, then you do you.  

[NastyNateSoldiers]

On 2/11/2025 at 1:42 PM, Pete said:

Beane has spent plenty of resources on DL-Rousseau, Oliver 1st round picks.  AJ 2nd round pick. $140 million Von.  High draft picks Boogie, Harrison.  FA signing Williams, Star, etc  Very little return on investment.

 

The problem is not that we ignore the DL.  The problem is missing again and again.

 

Ive always been a big Beane fan.  But his failures on DL, with our 1st round picks, and ignoring WR, my patience is wearing thin.

Beane just can't be trusted to draft Dlinemen or We or pretty much anything in the first 2rds of the draft

[Mr. WEO]

On 2/11/2025 at 8:19 AM, MrEpsYtown said:

I agree. I just think its so funny that we went through 3 years of "The Bills need to draft a wide receiver high" rhetoric and "they need to stop throwing picks at the defense" logic. Give Josh weapons! 

 

And now we have circled back around to "the defense is the problem. We need defensive linemen."

 

I just think it is funny. But I think it is very likely defensive line is going to be super high on the wish list. Hopefully, the Bills can trade for one of Garrett or Crosby. 

 

Maybe there is a Parsons trade built around Kincaid and picks since we stole him from them two years ago? 

 

They still need to draft quality WRs...

[Richard Noggin]

18 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Bills used their first round pick on Keon.  There is no reality where that isn’t true just because you want to use semantics where the Panthers gave us a free pick to move 1 more pick back changing the technicality of what round that actual pick got booked in.  
 

The reality is the Bills had a first round pick and turned it into Keon whether it was pick 28, 32 or 33 is absolutely irrelevant.  If it makes you sleep better at night to say “Bills first pick” instead of “first round pick” because you want to pretend we didn’t actually take our first rounder and use it to get an offensive player, then you do you.  

 

I understand the proximity argument here, but it's literally incorrect to say what you're saying.

[LEBills]

On 2/13/2025 at 12:02 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

Bills had the 16th most points per game of all time this year lol…most points per game of any team in the NFL over the last 5 seasons too.  We just lost after scoring 29 against a team that had not broke 30 the entire season and a game later was down 34-0 late in the game of a blow out loss thanks to the Eagles defense.
 

You want to worry about PPG than worry about our defense giving up 36 PPG in our 5 playoff losses the last 5 years.  Worry about our defense being bottom of the league in first downs allowed and 3rd down conversions which takes away offensive possessions from the offense to score because our defense can’t get off the field and get the ball back.

Yes we need to add a WR, but defense is absolutely a massive issue and by far the biggest reason we haven’t reached a SB and it’s not close.  So we can’t keep putting a band aid on it and expect different results.  We need to make some significant moves on defense, doesn’t mean don’t add a WR, it means we better also find a way to get better on defense or we are going to keep putting Josh in position to have to always be perfect, and that is a terrible place to put him in.

 

I think the reason you are getting so much push back even though you are right that the defense definitely does need extra help, is that most fans trust Josh much, much more than McDermott and Beane.

 

Even in 2021, when the Bills were the top DVOA defense and allowed the fewest PPG we still lost to KC in the playoffs by allowing over 40 points.

 

Since then, of all the draft capital used on defense and free agent signings our best players are Groot and a 6th round pick Benford who has been hurt in the last two playoffs.

in that same timeframe, our offensive investments have paid off more and so people would rather take the chance on adding more there and hopefully going from the 16th highest scoring offense all time to the top one. 
 

This year, I think being defense heavy is reasonable because Free Agency and the draft favor the defense. But if they bit the bullet for Tee Higgins, or drafted a WR early  I would have more faith in those players working out for us than on the defensive side

[billsfan714]

I think this notion of creating some unstoppable offense instead of having a good defense is insane.  Ive seen our Kelly no huddle offense get stopped in 4 superbowls.  I've seen the greatest show on turf get upended by Brady's Patriots.   The Giants stopping the Randy Moss era big offense Patriots.  Ravens winning bowls with Trent Dilfer and Joe Flacco.   I dont know how much better Josh can play in the playoffs with 33 tds(pass/rush/rec) vs 4 ints and you still cant get to the bowl and not realize it's on the defense and it has to be fixed.   Getting a defense to say hold the other team in playoff games to a low 20s should be the plan, not having Josh have to perfect, because he's been about that.

[Dr. Who]

2 minutes ago, billsfan714 said:

I think this notion of creating some unstoppable offense instead of having a good defense is insane.  Ive seen our Kelly no huddle offense get stopped in 4 superbowls.  I've seen the greatest show on turf get upended by Brady's Patriots.   The Giants stopping the Randy Moss era big offense Patriots.  Ravens winning bowls with Trent Dilfer and Joe Flacco.   I dont know how much better Josh can play in the playoffs with 33 tds(pass/rush/rec) vs 4 ints and you still cant get to the bowl and not realize it's on the defense and it has to be fixed.   Getting a defense to say hold the other team in playoff games to a low 20s should be the plan, not having Josh have to perfect, because he's been about that.

It's not an either/or. I think we need to add a boundary receiver who is a weapon. At minimum, someone good enough to make the opposing defenses account for that part of the field. However one acquires such, there is plenty of draft capital and FA to do that and also build the defense, which definitely needs upgrades. Beyond the talent, I think you need some scheme change. Hopefully McDermott's process has revealed that necessity.

[billsfan714]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

It's not an either/or. I think we need to add a boundary receiver who is a weapon. At minimum, someone good enough to make the opposing defenses account for that part of the field. However one acquires such, there is plenty of draft capital and FA to do that and also build the defense, which definitely needs upgrades. Beyond the talent, I think you need some scheme change. Hopefully McDermott's process has revealed that necessity.

Well again, what I don't get is after we scored the most points in the league, thinking we need more O.   The talent in this draft is DL, go get it and a corner or two.

Edited Sunday at 03:11 PM by billsfan714