Tre White's back-to-back injuries were the begining of the end for the once dominant Bills D

[HomeskillitMoorman]

2 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

I think he's more likely he refuses to sign an extension, Beane trades him to get a haul, he misses on every pick, we go 3-14, everyone gets fired and its back to the dark ages.

 

Wow, I thought I had some of the darkest outlooks on this site. This makes me look like Chris Brown. 

 

At least you'll always have chicken riggies. 

[uticaclub]

2 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

Wow, I thought I had some of the darkest outlooks on this site. This makes me look like Chris Brown. 

 

At least you'll always have chicken riggies. 

Don't forget about greens

[JohnNord]

4 hours ago, T master said:

 

Here's a question . Do you think seeing that Tre's contract was only for 1 season and that he will be a FA this coming season knowing that the Bills will need veteran depth at that position, do you think Beane might consider bringing Tre back as a depth player for a reasonable contract ?

 

He is 30 years old this year but his body although injured has had 2 full seasons mostly off recovering so he hasn't had the beating of play for those 2 seasons, does he have enough in the tank to bring him back as a depth player to pass on some much needed experience or could they change him to the safety position which will be another area of need ?

It’s an interesting idea but the sense I get is that it’s a lot harder of a move than it sounds.  You would have think Buffalo, LAR, or Baltimore would have tried this already.  I’m guessing it’s not an option.

 

The Bills org still loves Tre and I believe he took a photo on the field after the Baltimore loss.  But I think they are also realistic about his ability and I can’t see them bringing him back unless is on the PS

[ClemsonBills]

That 21 defense still crumbled in the playoffs

[HappyDays]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I broadly agree with the premise. In 2021, the year they lost Tre on Thanksgiving, the Bills defense was:

 

1st in the NFL in yards

1st in points 

1st in 3rd down % 

1st in points per drive

 

That D had a prime age elite corner for 2/3s of the season in White (26) and then Milano (27), Johnson (24), Hyde (30) and Poyer (29) fully healthy and in their peak performance window. 

 

Their rankings on defense have gradually worsened as that talent pool has suffered serious injuries (to White, Hyde and Milano) and aged out (Hyde and Poyer).

 

2022: 

2nd in points

6th in yards

7th in 3rd down %

5th in points per drive

 

2023:

4th in points

9th in yards

19th in 3rd down %

7th in points per drive

 

2024:

11th in points

17th in yards

29th in 3rd down %

18th in points per drive

 

I am on record as saying when Frazier stepped away that they would get worse on defense, and there was definitely an impact in that on what happened in 2023 and 2024, but the reality is the defensive performance has declined as the talent pool on defense has declined. They were at a point in 2022 pre-Tre's injury where they had one elite player and four very good ones in the back 7. As that has slowly been chipped away at the impact on performance has been clear. Interestingly the 3rd down drop off also coincides with the departure of Edmunds. And while I totally agreed with the decision to let him walk and he lacked splash impact plays... his length definitely helped on 3rd down where opposing QBs would see him sinking in the middle of the field and go away from him. Bernard makes more plays but to QB surveying the defense on 3rd and medium he isn't the same disincentive to throw in the middle of the field.

 

All the more reason to make CB a priority this offseason. McDermott's scheme needs a shutdown CB to function at its highest level. I've warmed up to drafting one in the 1st round. Shavon Revel seems like a great fit that has a realistic chance of still being there at #30.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

All the more reason to make CB a priority this offseason. McDermott's scheme needs a shutdown CB to function at its highest level. I've warmed up to drafting one in the 1st round. Shavon Revel seems like a great fit that has a realistic chance of still being there at #30.

 

Will they draft a guy coming off a serious injury? Just doesn't feel like their style. If they were to sign a 1-2 year FA deal with a solid vet maybe. I am not sure Revel gets to #30 though unless he fails re-checks at the Combine. And if he does he is off their board.

[streetkings01]

Bills defense was never dominant. Dominant against rookies and below average QBs……awful against top tier QBs!

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Will they draft a guy coming off a serious injury? Just doesn't feel like their style. If they were to sign a 1-2 year FA deal with a solid vet maybe. I am not sure Revel gets to #30 though unless he fails re-checks at the Combine. And if he does he is off their board.

 

It's a fair question and I don't know. I want Beane to be willing to take a chance like that because we're struggling to find elite talent so taking a player that drops for non-talent reasons is one way of solving the problem. It helps that he tore his ACL in September so he wouldn't miss his whole rookie season. I've floated the idea of someone like Jonathan Jones as a cheap vet that can compete with a rookie, and we just hired his CB coach so now I think that's a real possibility. 

 

I'll trust your judgment on the chances of Revel being there at #30. All the big boards I look at have him ranked usually between 32 and 40. But who knows. CBs with elite physical traits are coveted by every team.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's a fair question and I don't know. I want Beane to be willing to take a chance like that because we're struggling to find elite talent so taking a player that drops for non-talent reasons is one way of solving the problem. It helps that he tore his ACL in September so he wouldn't miss his whole rookie season. I've floated the idea of someone like Jonathan Jones as a cheap vet that can compete with a rookie, and we just hired his CB coach so now I think that's a real possibility. 

 

I'll trust your judgment on the chances of Revel being there at #30. All the big boards I look at have him ranked usually between 32 and 40. But who knows. CBs with elite physical traits are coveted by every team.

 

Yea if he had stayed healthy he is a top 16 pick. I'd love Revel btw. Not sure they will do it.

Edited February 11 by GunnerBill

[nucci]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The Eagles literally just played zone vs KC all game and dominated them.

 

The Bills need to have the ability to be multiple in coverage but zone works.

because they rushed 4 DL and never blitzed. Easy to play zone when dropping 7 in to coverage....literally

[Big Blitz]

That 2022 team was built as the “all in” team.  
 

And that defense with Von didn’t play 1 snap together (Tre wouldn’t be back until after Thanksgiving when Von went down).  
 

Not one snap.  That team was our all in move.    
 

Tre and Von’s injury completely derailed it.  
 

 

I just don’t think this roster is ready for another “all in” move.  Too many question marks on D.   

This was always a “reset” year especially for the defense.  Much more so than the O.  

 

Neglecting WR for 4 drafts bc we hoped Gabe could become something cost us.
 

Armchair QB is easy I know but it should have been DeJean or Newton - he had a solid rookie season.  
 

Dorian and Bishop are the only guys drafted on defense the last 2 years that maybe we can say will definitely help us.  And I’m reaching on Bishop solely bc of where he was drafted.  

 

If I go back 3 drafts Benford and TB.  
 

And not one D linemen of note.  That’s the main problem.  And poor secondary play.  
 

The needs puts us in a bad spot to want to give up significant assets for 1 player.  
 

You would have to be convinced that Garrett along with Oliver, Rousseau, and whoever will make an elite D line.  We need a #2 corner.  And maybe 2 safeties.  

[eee1776]

11 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

I think if that's the issue it was only magnified by the lack of Elam living up to his first-round status.  

Maybe try Elam out at safety.

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, Chaos said:

• Hyde, Poyer and White were perfect fits for the scheme the Bills wanted to run. Might have been genius. Might have been luck. 
• In 2021 this scheme was somewhat novel. In 2024, its fairly common and has been studied

 

I'm snipping most of your post to focus in on what I believe to be a key point.

 

In 2020, the Bills rolled over the league with a pass-centric offense.  They weren't alone in this: the Chiefs, Bucs, Chargers, Texans, Falcons all very pass-centric teams of which the Chiefs, Bills, and Bucs were the most successful.  The Colts, Seahawks and Packers were two successful passing teams that could also run successfully.  

 

The writing was on the wall in 2021 with the season opener against Pittsburgh and the embarrassing loss to the Jags.  Some teams had figured out how to defend the offense Daboll was running.  

By 2022, teams had "caught up" defensively.  So our scheme had to adjust, and lean a lot more on the run game.  I think that's a league wide trend - I forget what pundit it was, but someone was proselytizing about how there's been a change and so many running backs are now among the top players by some metric of added value.

 

The Bills defense was built primarily to shut down high powered passing offenses. They could stop the run when they sold out the passing game to do it, as with the 2020 and 2021 era Ravens and Seahawks.  But when a team had a top run game backed up by a sound passing attack, our D struggled.  The Colts gave the Bills all they could handle in the playoffs.

We needed to move on from Daboll  and his disciple Dorsey because teams had "solved" that offense.  Thanks to the Giants hiring Daboll and McDermott firing Dorsey, we did.

 

What I think we need to do, but haven't done that successfully yet, is re-cast our defensive scheme to catch up to the new offensive "arms race."

 

 

 

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, eee1776 said:

Maybe try Elam out at safety.

 

Gaaaah!  No!   One of Elam's flaws is his unwillingness to lay himself out and thump in tackling.  It's one reason why he's inactive, instead of playing teams.
That's the very essence of what the Bills need from a safety, and Elam is missing it.
 

[Thurman#1]

21 hours ago, Special K said:

With all the talk of the Eagles strong D-line, the other factor that contributed to the Eagles Defensive dominance of the Chiefs was the lockdown CB play from Slay and Mitchell.

 

The Lockdown version of Tre White pre-injury, coupled with Benford as a future CB1 playing as a CB2 would have allowed the Bills to lockdown the Chiefs WR's in the same manner as the Eagles did on Sunday.

 

Obviously the Bills pass rush is nothing like Philly, but I really would have liked the chance to see if a dominant White and Benford combo could have been the difference to get past the Chiefs.

 

 

Definitely a factor. To me it's more about Poyer and Hyde but yeah, Tre too.

 

It's easy to forget but White was both talented and cerebral. Hell of a player in his day.

 

But the Bills biggest weakness has been D-line and in particular the lack of a  pass rush.

 

All factors. This year was supposed to be a kind of mini-rebuild. We didn't see it till near the end, and we came a play or two away from beating them anyway. But that was real. It manifested itself in the safeties, the DL and when Rasul regressed, the CBs.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

In 2017 the defense was actually kind of good. That offseason we were completely figured out. The book was written. 2018 was a transition year. 19 began the exposure as we blew a big lead in our first playoff defensive failure. It’s been a lot of smoke and mirrors hidden by elite Safety play, turnovers and our own offense making teams extremely one dimensional. The only year that our defense wasn’t our demise was 2017. They played well in that playoff game. Every year after we were exposed as a paper Tiger. No pressure, no discomfort for opposing QBs. Can’t get off the field and can’t make a big stop. Ever. Zero times. It’s hope our own offense scores a TD on every drive and pray for turnovers. That’s not sustainable. It’s not what good teams do

Edited February 12 by Brianmoorman4jesus

[stinky finger]

8 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Lol. No. Not even close. Guy just coached the Bills to the AFCCG. Terry loves him. The players still strongly support him. After losing in the Divisional round the last few years they actually took a step forward with less perceived talent on the roster. He's closer to getting another extension than he is being on the hot seat IMO.

 

 

 

Next year should be the year to decide this regimes fate. At some point they have to produce a winner with this QB.

 

tick, tock, tick, tock......

[ghostwriter]

I like Benford and I like Douglas. Our issues were at safety in my opinion.. We missed Poyer and Hyde in their prime more so than Tre.

 

I hope Buffalo addresses safety in FA. Please get this defense a top tier veteran to solidify that unit. I’m more than okay with Bishop and Rapp filling in the rest.

[billsfan89]

6 minutes ago, ghostwriter said:

I like Benford and I like Douglas. Our issues were at safety in my opinion.. We missed Poyer and Hyde in their prime more so than Tre.

 

I hope Buffalo addresses safety in FA. Please get this defense a top tier veteran to solidify that unit. I’m more than okay with Bishop and Rapp filling in the rest.

 

I think if the Bills resign Hamlin having a trio of Hamlin/Rapp/Bishop is more than serviceable at safety esp because I think Bishop will be a good safety as I think he looked better the more games he got to the point where I think he was solid in the Ravens and KC playoff games. I do think that if they resign Hamlin to a modest contract they could add a 4th round pick for depth and development and role with what they have there. 

 

I think the Bills are gonna be better off spending their premium draft/cap resources on the defensive line and corner as there's only so much cap space and draft picks you have to work with. Ideally you can just address all your needs impactfully. But realistically you have to make less investments elsewhere. And I think upgrading safety is something that's going to be more of a luxury and might not be necessary compared to more urgent needs. 

[ghostwriter]

5 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I think if the Bills resign Hamlin having a trio of Hamlin/Rapp/Bishop is more than serviceable at safety esp because I think Bishop will be a good safety as I think he looked better the more games he got to the point where I think he was solid in the Ravens and KC playoff games. I do think that if they resign Hamlin to a modest contract they could add a 4th round pick for depth and development and role with what they have there. 

 

I think the Bills are gonna be better off spending their premium draft/cap resources on the defensive line and corner as there's only so much cap space and draft picks you have to work with. Ideally you can just address all your needs impactfully. But realistically you have to make less investments elsewhere. And I think upgrading safety is something that's going to be more of a luxury and might not be necessary compared to more urgent needs. 

Here’s our top 3 corners pff grade:

 

Christian Benford 82.6 overall

Taron Johnson 65.0 overall

Rasul Douglas 59.2 overall

 

At safety we have:

 

Damar Hamlin 60.2 overall

Taylor Rapp 59.2 overall

Cole Bishop 49.2 overall

 

I’m with you that we should add another corner but I think we need to add another safety as well. Now how you want us to do that I don’t know. I suppose a have a stronger proclivity towards adding a safety in Free Agency because of the nature of the position, it requires a great deal of knowledge and experience to master that position. A rookie safety will fare no better than Cole Bishop did in his rookie season.

 

I do agree strongly with you however that we need to focus heavy on DL. I would not be upset in any way if we added two linemen with our first two picks.. And by all means add a few guys in Free Agency as well.. Maybe start by extending Gregory Rousseau before he has a breakout year?

 

It will be interesting to see who we cut/get rid of when it comes to freeing up roster space going into Free Agency.. That should give us more insight into what Beane and McD plan on doing. Till then your guess is as good as mine.