Tre White's back-to-back injuries were the begining of the end for the once dominant Bills D

[The Jokeman]

9 hours ago, Special K said:

With all the talk of the Eagles strong D-line, the other factor that contributed to the Eagles Defensive dominance of the Chiefs was the lockdown CB play from Slay and Mitchell.

 

The Lockdown version of Tre White pre-injury, coupled with Benford as a future CB1 playing as a CB2 would have allowed the Bills to lockdown the Chiefs WR's in the same manner as the Eagles did on Sunday.

 

Obviously the Bills pass rush is nothing like Philly, but I really would have liked the chance to see if a dominant White and Benford combo could have been the difference to get past the Chiefs.

Von Miller's injury did us in toss in Leonard Floyd went AWOL in the 2nd half of last season. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

9 hours ago, Special K said:

With all the talk of the Eagles strong D-line, the other factor that contributed to the Eagles Defensive dominance of the Chiefs was the lockdown CB play from Slay and Mitchell.

 

The Lockdown version of Tre White pre-injury, coupled with Benford as a future CB1 playing as a CB2 would have allowed the Bills to lockdown the Chiefs WR's in the same manner as the Eagles did on Sunday.

 

Obviously the Bills pass rush is nothing like Philly, but I really would have liked the chance to see if a dominant White and Benford combo could have been the difference to get past the Chiefs.

 

Was White and Wallace really better than Benford and Douglas in 2023??  This past year 2024 admittedly Douglas dropped off some.  Do agree that a healthily White and Benford would have been the best combo

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Was White and Wallace really better than Benford and Douglas in 2023??  This past year 2024 admittedly Douglas dropped off some.  Do agree that a healthily White and Benford would have been the best combo

White was starting to get back in 2023. The Miami game he was flying around and then bam, gone for the year. The next week Milano and DaQuan Jones gone for the year.

 

That defense was rolling in 2023 week 4 vs Miami and it all fell apart so fast. Probably our best defense IMO from a talent standpoint. Floyd and Rousseau edge. Oliver and Jones DT. Milano and Bernard LB, Johnson, Benford, and White at CB, Poyer, Hyde, and Rapp at safety.

 

Injuries killed it.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

9 hours ago, Special K said:

With all the talk of the Eagles strong D-line, the other factor that contributed to the Eagles Defensive dominance of the Chiefs was the lockdown CB play from Slay and Mitchell.

 

The Lockdown version of Tre White pre-injury, coupled with Benford as a future CB1 playing as a CB2 would have allowed the Bills to lockdown the Chiefs WR's in the same manner as the Eagles did on Sunday.

 

Obviously the Bills pass rush is nothing like Philly, but I really would have liked the chance to see if a dominant White and Benford combo could have been the difference to get past the Chiefs.

I remember that Miami game when Tre got injured. The defense was the best I had ever seen it ever. I remember thinking, “finally!” Everything was clicking on all cylinders: Von, Oliver, Daquon, Milano, Bernard, and a fully healthy Tre. 
 

Then Tre went down!
 

Then, we lose Milano and Daquon the next week.

 

Then, we lose Von a few weeks later.

[Da webster guy]

4 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

I think if that's the issue it was only magnified by the lack of Elam living up to his first-round status.  

In a redraft, Benford was a 1st round talent and Elam was a 6th.  We did fine there.

 

To me the most painful draft mistake was two years ago we were sitting there in the 5th round looking for a WR.   The NFL odds for any 5th rounder to have an NFL career are 4-5% so any pick down here is a prayer.   We were looking for some WR depth and Puka Nucua was sitting there, a top 5 elite game changing receiver, and our scouting team said nah, we'll take Shorter.   Nacua paired w Diggs and Shakir last year would have been enough to get us a championship.  Maybe this year too.

 

Obviously everyone passed on the guy for 176 picks and there are millions of examples of NFL surprises, but someone this elite in the late rounds when we're already hunting for a WR to me is another example of the Bills scouts falling us.   Its am incredibly hard job and every team misses a ton, but there weren't many WR's left that had NFL potential at that point and we needed that guy so badly.   Now Shorter is gone and we had to burn a 3rd round pick this draft to get Cooper for a handful of games which will turn out to be a wasted trade.

 

Eagles had a lot of nice draft picks that stepped up for them and it showed.   Maybe this year we have that kind of haul with two 2nd rounders, two 4th and three 6th round picks.  CMon Beaner!

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

27 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

White was starting to get back in 2023. The Miami game he was flying around and then bam, gone for the year. The next week Milano and DaQuan Jones gone for the year.

 

That defense was rolling in 2023 week 4 vs Miami and it all fell apart so fast. Probably our best defense IMO from a talent standpoint. Floyd and Rousseau edge. Oliver and Jones DT. Milano and Bernard LB, Johnson, Benford, and White at CB, Poyer, Hyde, and Rapp at safety.

 

Injuries killed it.

 

Yeah I  agree overall, the injuries hurt.  A healthy White and Benford would have been very good pair and would have a few years left together.  Likely would have made Poyer  and Hyde look better overall too.  Add to that we'd have had another 3rd round pick as wouldn't have made the trade for Douglas. 

[bigK14094]

Von Miller needs to go.  Likely some others as well.  Draft DL and DBs.   Until the cap is in order, no big signings.  Lots of the vet signings have not worked out, don't lean on that to much.  this Bills team is not a superbowl team...the D isn't up to it.  And, Bills should have drafted Cooper DeJean first in the second round, and picked up Coleman later.

[SoonerBillsFan]

15 minutes ago, Da webster guy said:

In a redraft, Benford was a 1st round talent and Elam was a 6th.  We did fine there.

 

To me the most painful draft mistake was two years ago we were sitting there in the 5th round looking for a WR.   The NFL odds for any 5th rounder to have an NFL career are 4-5% so any pick down here is a prayer.   We were looking for some WR depth and Puka Nucua was sitting there, a top 5 elite game changing receiver, and our scouting team said nah, we'll take Shorter.   Nacua paired w Diggs and Shakir last year would have been enough to get us a championship.  Maybe this year too.

 

Obviously everyone passed on the guy for 176 picks and there are millions of examples of NFL surprises, but someone this elite in the late rounds when we're already hunting for a WR to me is another example of the Bills scouts falling us.   Its am incredibly hard job and every team misses a ton, but there weren't many WR's left that had NFL potential at that point and we needed that guy so badly.   Now Shorter is gone and we had to burn a 3rd round pick this draft to get Cooper for a handful of games which will turn out to be a wasted trade.

 

Eagles had a lot of nice draft picks that stepped up for them and it showed.   Maybe this year we have that kind of haul with two 2nd rounders, two 4th and three 6th round picks.  CMon Beaner!

 

 

It again boils down to Beane not being great at Evaluation.  Look at the DT's taken after Oliver.  We take a DE when a guy who becomes an All Pro Center is sitting there.

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, Special K said:

With all the talk of the Eagles strong D-line, the other factor that contributed to the Eagles Defensive dominance of the Chiefs was the lockdown CB play from Slay and Mitchell.

 

The Lockdown version of Tre White pre-injury, coupled with Benford as a future CB1 playing as a CB2 would have allowed the Bills to lockdown the Chiefs WR's in the same manner as the Eagles did on Sunday.

 

Obviously the Bills pass rush is nothing like Philly, but I really would have liked the chance to see if a dominant White and Benford combo could have been the difference to get past the Chiefs.

 

I agree that losing Tre White was the beginning of the end for the Bills more dominant D, but it was really just one factor.  

 

Bringing up Benford as a "future CB1 playing as a CB2" - eh, Benford excels as a zone corner I think.  It has to be recalled that the Bills used a Rd 1 pick on Kaiir Elam because HE was supposed to be our CB1, and we would have two "CB1s" of Tre White and Kaiir Elam in the backfield for 4 years.  That was the plan.  Benford was a lucky find. 

[K-9]

Our D was good statistically, but never dominant. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

23 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I agree that losing Tre White was the beginning of the end for the Bills more dominant D, but it was really just one factor.  

 

Bringing up Benford as a "future CB1 playing as a CB2" - eh, Benford excels as a zone corner I think.  It has to be recalled that the Bills used a Rd 1 pick on Kaiir Elam because HE was supposed to be our CB1, and we would have two "CB1s" of Tre White and Kaiir Elam in the backfield for 4 years.  That was the plan.  Benford was a lucky find. 

The Eagles literally just played zone vs KC all game and dominated them.

 

The Bills need to have the ability to be multiple in coverage but zone works.

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I broadly agree with the premise. In 2021, the year they lost Tre on Thanksgiving, the Bills defense was:

 

1st in the NFL in yards

1st in points 

1st in 3rd down % 

1st in points per drive

 

That D had a prime age elite corner for 2/3s of the season in White (26) and then Milano (27), Johnson (24), Hyde (30) and Poyer (29) fully healthy and in their peak performance window. 

 

Their rankings on defense have gradually worsened as that talent pool has suffered serious injuries (to White, Hyde and Milano) and aged out (Hyde and Poyer).

 

2022: 

2nd in points

6th in yards

7th in 3rd down %

5th in points per drive

 

2023:

4th in points

9th in yards

19th in 3rd down %

7th in points per drive

 

2024:

11th in points

17th in yards

29th in 3rd down %

18th in points per drive

 

I am on record as saying when Frazier stepped away that they would get worse on defense, and there was definitely an impact in that on what happened in 2023 and 2024, but the reality is the defensive performance has declined as the talent pool on defense has declined. They were at a point in 2022 pre-Tre's injury where they had one elite player and four very good ones in the back 7. As that has slowly been chipped away at the impact on performance has been clear. Interestingly the 3rd down drop off also coincides with the departure of Edmunds. And while I totally agreed with the decision to let him walk and he lacked splash impact plays... his length definitely helped on 3rd down where opposing QBs would see him sinking in the middle of the field and go away from him. Bernard makes more plays but to QB surveying the defense on 3rd and medium he isn't the same disincentive to throw in the middle of the field.

 

 

 

It's not even close to just one player though.......they've aged out on a broad scale.......Miller, Hyde, Poyer, Milano, DJones, White, Johnson.......all gone or significantly declined in play/impact/availability since 2022.

 

And the opportunistic, inexpensive replacements aren't very durable.    Benford, Bernard and Rapp are just plain fragile and are 1 for 6 combined in being able to play that playoff game against KC.  

 

If they can all be on the field and finish those Chiefs games the defensive results wouldn't have been nearly as bad as the 2020-2021 speed-boat jobs in KC........which I think were largely due to zero impact from Edmunds when playing good teams.  He would just get assaulted thru the air because they knew there was no chance he would make a play.  He could reach the low hanging fruit like rookie QB's with those long arms but that's about it.    And that made those early 20's defense's a bit of a paper tiger in the playoffs.

 

 

[Flip Johnson]

3 hours ago, JP51 said:

I am going to probably get killed for this... but wondering what folks think... Tre White... depth corner... 30 years old.. signed to a team friendly 1 yr deal... maybe with an option... 1.5mm take the chance that he has recovered after a full year... and bring him in on the cheap as a depth piece...  I would say maybe work him into a safety position but he is too small and not a great tackler... so he would need to be a nickle/Dime guy, or a depth CB... thoughts... 

 

He is, and has been, 100% washed. It is sad to watch him play now. 

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

It's not even close to just one player though.......they've aged out on a broad scale.......Miller, Hyde, Poyer, Milano, DJones, White, Johnson.......all gone or significantly declined in play/impact/availability since 2022.

 

And the opportunistic, inexpensive replacements aren't very durable.    Benford, Bernard and Rapp are just plain fragile and are 1 for 6 combined in being able to play that playoff game against KC.  

 

If they can all be on the field and finish those Chiefs games the defensive results wouldn't have been nearly as bad as the 2020-2021 speed-boat jobs in KC........which I think were largely due to zero impact from Edmunds when playing good teams.  He would just get assaulted thru the air because they knew there was no chance he would make a play.  He could reach the low hanging fruit like rookie QB's with those long arms but that's about it.    And that made those early 20's defense's a bit of a paper tiger in the playoffs.

 

Oh yea I was not agreeing it was one player. I was accepting the OP's point that the Tre injury was the start of the end for that D. It was definitely the comination of injuries and age catching up with 5 or 6 of their key guys over a couple of year period. 

[FireChans]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I broadly agree with the premise. In 2021, the year they lost Tre on Thanksgiving, the Bills defense was:

 

1st in the NFL in yards

1st in points 

1st in 3rd down % 

1st in points per drive

 

That D had a prime age elite corner for 2/3s of the season in White (26) and then Milano (27), Johnson (24), Hyde (30) and Poyer (29) fully healthy and in their peak performance window. 

 

Their rankings on defense have gradually worsened as that talent pool has suffered serious injuries (to White, Hyde and Milano) and aged out (Hyde and Poyer).

 

2022: 

2nd in points

6th in yards

7th in 3rd down %

5th in points per drive

 

2023:

4th in points

9th in yards

19th in 3rd down %

7th in points per drive

 

2024:

11th in points

17th in yards

29th in 3rd down %

18th in points per drive

 

I am on record as saying when Frazier stepped away that they would get worse on defense, and there was definitely an impact in that on what happened in 2023 and 2024, but the reality is the defensive performance has declined as the talent pool on defense has declined. They were at a point in 2022 pre-Tre's injury where they had one elite player and four very good ones in the back 7. As that has slowly been chipped away at the impact on performance has been clear. Interestingly the 3rd down drop off also coincides with the departure of Edmunds. And while I totally agreed with the decision to let him walk and he lacked splash impact plays... his length definitely helped on 3rd down where opposing QBs would see him sinking in the middle of the field and go away from him. Bernard makes more plays but to QB surveying the defense on 3rd and medium he isn't the same disincentive to throw in the middle of the field.

The larger point is that it’s really hard to keep a really good defensive unit year after year.

 

The Pats, overseen by the greatest defensive coach in NFL history, had an 11 year stretch outside of the top 10

in yards allowed. 
 

They were opportunistic and forced TO’s but not that great otherwise. 

[billsfan714]

Big Money to Tre, he broke down, big money to Von, he broke down, big money to Milano, hes breaking down.  Never really had a succession plan for Poyer and Hyde.   Dead money on the 2025 cap still for Tre, will be plenty of dead money for Von.   Its tough when you're spending 10s of millions of dollars for people who aren't contributing much.

[DapperCam]

Age and injuries really killed us.

 

- Tre White tearing his ACL and the Achilles on a big cap deal.

- Von Miller tearing his ACL on a big cap deal.

- Milano breaking his leg and then tearing his bicep on a big cap deal (decent sized vet deal at least).

- D Jones tearing his bicep and missing a year.

- Hamlin dying

- Poyer and Hyde kind of falling off a cliff. Hyde breaking his neck and missing a season. They were on decent vet deals.

- Oliver being perpetually dinged up.

 

Some really bad luck here 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

3 hours ago, uticaclub said:

Lol he’s been on the “hot seat” since :13 seconds. McDermott and Beane arent going anywhere until Allen demands a trade.

 

I agree with that...but at some point I think Josh will have enough of this. I don't think it will be until he demands a trade, I think it'll be when he goes into Terry's office and tells him he needs to fire this coach.

 

Other top QB's don't consistently lose playoff game that they play really well in. It has to wear on him.

Edited February 11 by HomeskillitMoorman

[BuffaloBillyG]

4 hours ago, DallasBillsFan1 said:

McDermott is on the hot seat this year.

Lol. No. Not even close. Guy just coached the Bills to the AFCCG. Terry loves him. The players still strongly support him. After losing in the Divisional round the last few years they actually took a step forward with less perceived talent on the roster. He's closer to getting another extension than he is being on the hot seat IMO.

 

 

[uticaclub]

28 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I agree with that...but at some point I think Josh will have enough of this. I don't think it will be until he demands a trade, I think it'll be when he goes into Terry's office and tells him he needs to fire this coach.

 

Other top QB's don't consistently lose playoff game that they play really well in. It has to wear on him.

I think he's more likely he refuses to sign an extension, Beane trades him to get a haul, he misses on every pick, we go 3-14, everyone gets fired and its back to the dark ages.