The Eagles beat the Chiefs by doing the opposite of the Bills

[BarleyNY]

4 minutes ago, Thrivefourfive said:

This is obvious but I still hope the more people say it the more it becomes obvious that our coach is #1 problem. 

It was also impressive that there was no spy on Mahomes, which given the four rushers would’ve been plausible. They didn’t need that either, because of the defensive line. Even the times the Eagles lineman got stuck on one side, it was literally and figuratively their right side, and a lineman broke free to cover the ground needed to disrupt Mahomes. The one play where Mahomes scrambled back and to the right and Carter was slingshotted to a Mahomes by the Chiefs shoving olineman, 4th down play, Carter got his ankles and the ball was late to the spot. 
 

The Eagles pressured AND contained the pocket, not so much the player in or out of it. 
 

All seven got to cover, tight man and zone. It was beautiful. 
 

McDermott, in all his defensive genius 🤮 hasn’t done one thing to deviate. I consider that less than genius level, on principle. He’s Ichiro compared to Willie Mays. 

A very good HC that gets horribly tight and predictable in big moments. Great coaches know when to break tendencies and we have a HC that won’t do that or allow his coordinators to do it. 

[BigDingus]

1 hour ago, OldTimer1960 said:

You aren’t wrong, but do you think the Bills have the talent in the secondary to play a lot of man?  I think that would just expose their secondary.

 

That's what we got Kaiir Elam for! Don't worry, I'm sure he'll definitely come around soon!

[MasterStrategist]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

That was the most shocking part of last nights game. The Eagles essentially came out and said “everything the Bills did last week, we are going to do the opposite”.

 

Many fans are talking about the dominant Eagles d-line. They’re right. Talent plays a big part. BUT, part of the reason they looked SO dominant last night is because of the scheme the Eagles were running.

 

Instead of playing soft man, like we did last week, the Eagles pressed on nearly every play. This made the Chiefs old/slow (Kelce/Hopkins) and small (Hollywood/Worthy) have to fight for every yard from the second the ball was snapped.

 

This took away the quick passing game that Mahomes excelled with against the Bills. He HAD to hold the ball, because his receivers needed time to get open because they were being pressed at the line.

 

It was that combination of the Eagles talent on D-Line, AND the coaching scheme making Mahomes hold the ball. 

 

It was the completely opposite of what we ran. And it rattled Mahomes something fierce.

 

On the offensive side, they hit the flats REPEATEDLY. This made the Chiefs divert attention to the boundary and opened up the middle of the field for Hurts to run when the LB’s abandoned to cover the flats.

 

It was a beautiful coaching job. Vic Fangio deserves major kudos. I was happy when Miami jettisoned home - he was not the problem there.

 

 

Probably the most simplified post ever....

 

Everyone wants to point to "scheme".  It's called the Eagles have all pro talent at every level, and an amazingly talented dline.

 

Fangio is playing his exact scheme he deployed in past stops, most recently Miami.  

 

They mixed man/zone all night.  But the key was the dline play.  Collapsed the pocket/suffocated the run game.  They could stay in 2 high looks and press, because of their dline and speed/talent at corner.

 

Amazing what happens to a defense that went from 28th to best in NFL---- Baun, DL acquisitions, and Mitchell/Coop.  They have crushed recent drafts, 3-4 critical upgrades to a defense that was injured LY and needed to improve at Cb and Safety.

 

TL/DR: you can't coach speed/talent into a player.  Fangio is a clear upgrade to their staff, but he's not better than Babich/McD.  Put us with that talent and see what happens.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

For sure. 
 

For all of his greatness, this is the second Super Bowl where Mahomes has shown he can be pretty flappable.

 

he wasn’t the only problem but he was an absolute problem. Throwing at Kelce’s knees etc etc. they truly did collapse after that.

 

My hot take is that it wasn't much different from his other Super Bowl appearances. Especially last year's. Middling play in the 1st half before turning it on in the 2nd half. The difference this time is his defense wasn't able to keep them in the game so by the time he found his groove it was way too late. Everybody forgets now but last year against SF he led his offense to 3 points in the 1st half, then started the 2nd half with a brutal INT that gave SF the ball at midfield. I give major credit to Jalen Hurts for playing an almost perfect game and doing enough to build an insurmountable lead. Purdy last year let KC hang around.

[Thrivefourfive]

I hate to do this here, but is Beane the bigger problem over McDermott? 
 

It would be easier to get rid of Beane and keep McDermott, and then release McDermott if that doesn’t work out in 1-3 years. 
 

We are all saying it. We don’t have the horses to do what the Eagles did— scheme wise because of talent deficiencies. So we can’t expect McDermott to coach ‘em up to do that, right?! There’s no talent. McDermott isn’t dumb and we watch him use his first aide kit, which only works if we force a TO or hold to FGs. So it worked a lot this season. But the D didn’t pass any eye test whatsoever. 
 

Beane’s draft record is getting worse. It’s declining. He drafts good players. But he misses on top player projections, and he misses on guys that eye test wise seem like they’d be lucky to even perform at their draft slot. He takes players and I think, what’s special about that nice looking college player..?? I don’t see any one skill that projects as a top performing talent in the NFL. 
 

Beane drafts B players everywhere in the draft. 
 

Beane should be the new Buffalo Bills Assistant GM/B Player Scout Specialist, where as Beane gets a few mid/late round picks and that’s it.

 

We are losing the draft and free agency to the better organizations. We need to rank our roster on Beane, and not give bonus points for having a top QB. 
 

Bottom line is Beane SHOULD BE SWEATING. Would Terry instill that pressure? McDermott  putting on that pressure, I don’t like it. He has other interests and his own responsibilities. 
 

I think McDermott is the smarter of the two, so I’d keep McDermott and move on from Beane if he: 1. Can’t land Garrett; 2. Loses our off season/draft; and we don’t get to the SB next season. I’m moving on.

 

I’ll be a jerk and say I laugh that McDermott looks genuinely amazed James Cook is out performing the team’s expectations that THEY placed on him from the DRAFT (Beane)

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Thrivefourfive

[SoonerBillsFan]

50 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

What was it that the Bills did defensively to beat the Chiefs in the regular season as opposed to the post season?

The Chiefs make significant changes come playoffs.  That is one thing I want Sean to do. Show them one thing in the regular season, then hit them with something completely different in the playoffs.

2 minutes ago, Thrivefourfive said:

I hate to do this here, but is Beane the bigger problem over McDermott? 
 

It would be easier to get rid of Beane and keep McDermott, and then release McDermott if that doesn’t work out in 1-3 years. 
 

We are all saying it. We don’t have the horses to do what the Eagles did— scheme wise because of talent deficiencies. So we can’t expect McDermott to coach ‘em up to do that, right?! There’s no talent. McDermott isn’t dumb and we watch him use his first aide kit, which only works if we force a TO or hold to FGs. So it worked a lot this season. But the D didn’t pass any eye test whatsoever. 
 

Beane’s draft record is getting worse. It’s declining. He drafts good players. But he misses on top player projections, and he misses on guys that eye test wise seem like they’d be lucky to even perform at their draft slot. He takes players and I think, what’s special about that nice looking college player..?? I don’t see any one skill that projects as a top performing talent in the NFL. 
 

Beane drafts B players everywhere in the draft. 
 

Beane should be the new Buffalo Bills Assistant GM/B Player Scout Specialist, where as Beane gets a few mid/late round picks and that’s it.

 

We are losing the draft and free agency to the better organizations. We need to rank our roster on Beane, and not give bonus points for having a top QB. 
 

Bottom line is Beane SHOULD BE SWEATING. Would Terry instill that pressure? McDermott  putting on that pressure, I don’t like it. He has other interests and his own responsibilities. 
 

I think McDermott is the smarter of the two, so I’d keep McDermott and move on from Beane if he: 1. Can’t land Garrett; 2. Loses our off season/draft; and we don’t get to the SB next season. I’m moving on.

 

I’ll be a jerk and say I laugh that McDermott looks genuinely amazed the Cook is out performing the teams expectations that THEY placed on him form the DRAFT (Beane)

Yes. The talent just isn't there overall, and he has been horrible with Drafting Defense.

[Magox]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

The Eagles DLine collapsed the pocket so fast and so often, I'm not sure it even mattered much.  Mahomes had no escape lanes and was literally under siege almost every play. His feet were all over the place and he was off all night long.

It was mainly due to the coverage.   Mahomes threw the ball at an average time of 3.33 seconds against the Eagles.

 

Against the Bills 2.29 seconds.  That’s over a full second.

 

The unsung story was that the Eagles coverage units.   The defensive line capitalized and by the time he got to his second read the pocket was already collapsing 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

My hot take is that it wasn't much different from his other Super Bowl appearances. Especially last year's. Middling play in the 1st half before turning it on in the 2nd half. The difference this time is his defense wasn't able to keep them in the game so by the time he found his groove it was way too late. Everybody forgets now but last year against SF he led his offense to 3 points in the 1st half, then started the 2nd half with a brutal INT that gave SF the ball at midfield. I give major credit to Jalen Hurts for playing an almost perfect game and doing enough to build an insurmountable lead. Purdy last year let KC hang around.

Definitely a hot take.

 

Mahomes wasn’t middling in the first half. He was a disaster. The Eagles had more points than the Chiefs had yards. He had 2 picks which put 14 points on the board for the Eagles.

 

If he played that way vs the Niners, they would have also blown them out. 
 

Hurts didn’t play “almost perfect.” Not even close. He made enough plays to make the Chiefs pay for their mistakes and capitalize on them. And the Eagles D erased Hurts’ horrific pick.
 

If you dropped Josh Allen on that Eagles roster last night, they would have scored 100. That’s not “nearly perfect QB play.” 
 

Mahomes “turned it on” when the game was over lol. They were down 40-6.

 

Put that take in the freezer.

[CircleTheWagons99]

so you are saying the Bills game plan was not good, and who creates these so called game plans? Do the Coordinators have full range to do whatever they want?  

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Utah John said:

Great analysis.  I don't know if the Bills would have been successful doing that the Eagles did, considering the Bills D line is a B or B- group based on production.  (The Bills spend so much money and so many draft picks on the D line, and this is all they get??  Either they can't draft that position, or they can't coach that position, or both.)  So an attacking scheme by the Bills would probably still have given Mahomes plenty of time to pass, and the soft zone would still have been a target rich environment for Kelce.

Agree, Your point on the players or the coaching is the two pronged issue with our D line, combined that with the soft coverages that they almost always use is why the Defense struggles most every season, especially in the playoffs, imo, Sean’s scheme is old hat, and the better teams/coaches know how to attack it, time for a change, 

[Thrivefourfive]

7 minutes ago, Magox said:

It was mainly due to the coverage.   Mahomes threw the ball at an average time of 3.33 seconds against the Eagles.

 

Against the Bills 2.29 seconds.  That’s over a full second.

 

The unsung story was that the Eagles coverage units.   The defensive line capitalized and by the time he got to his second read the pocket was already collapsing 

I actually think the Bills D line wasn’t the problem vs KC. Mahomes released everything so quickly, and then the play was SO OPEN. Spotting them 8 yards every single play. 
 

Edited 15 hours ago by Thrivefourfive

[CircleTheWagons99]

1 minute ago, Thrivefourfive said:

I actually think the Bills D line wasn’t the problem vs KC. Mahomes was just released everything so quickly, and then the play was SO OPEN. Spotting them 8 yards every single play 

and that wont change under McD.

[Thrivefourfive]

3 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

and that wont change under McD.

Do we think it wont change because we can’t draft good players or because McD won’t change?

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Mahomes wasn’t middling in the first half. He was a disaster. The Eagles had more points than the Chiefs had yards. He had 2 picks which put 14 points on the board for the Eagles.

 

I try to be charitable to QBs because it's such a difficult position. I don't know of any QB in history that would have performed well under those circumstances last night. Brady would have made less mistakes but no way he would have done enough to overcome that game script. The pick six was brutally bad but it wasn't any worse than the pick he threw to start the 3rd quarter last year, it just happened to be run back for 6 this time around.

 

KC's offense last night reminded me of our loss to the Urban Meyer Jags. I remember after that game thinking Allen didn't play particularly well but he also had no real chance to succeed because of no run game and relentless pressure on every down. There's a certain point where the QB just can't overcome the mess around him.

[Mat68]

The superior talent on the eagles dline was the difference.  Buffalo had a similar level of investment but Philly has gotten more production.  Buffalo is missing a Jalen Carter level talent.  Ed has moments but Carter can be unblock-able.  His ability to beat double teams imo is the difference of the defenses. 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

I try to be charitable to QBs because it's such a difficult position. I don't know of any QB in history that would have performed well under those circumstances last night. Brady would have made less mistakes but no way he would have done enough to overcome that game script. The pick six was brutally bad but it wasn't any worse than the pick he threw to start the 3rd quarter last year, it just happened to be run back for 6 this time around.

 

KC's offense last night reminded me of our loss to the Urban Meyer Jags. I remember after that game thinking Allen didn't play particularly well but he also had no real chance to succeed because of no run game and relentless pressure on every down. There's a certain point where the QB just can't overcome the mess around him.

Meh, I think Josh on the Chiefs keeps it a game at least. Josh is probably the greatest QB at playing/compensating with a complete disaster at OL.

 

I won’t be charitable to Pat when I hold Josh to the same standard. Yes, Thuney got pushed back into Mahomes for the second pick that basically ended the game and put them down 24-0. It was still horrific. 

 

The difference between Mahomes and Josh, imo, is that Josh would have willed some more first downs, even with that kind of heat. And stringing together any kind of offense by any means necessary was crucial to stop the bleeding. 
 

Mahomes wasn’t just a victim of circumstance. He telegraphed a bad pick six when it was only 10-0 and the Chiefs had shut down Barkley and already had a pick on Hurts. sure they may have still lost, but Mahomes opened the flood gates by himself.
 

Josh Allen wouldn’t have ever been down 40-6. I promise. Maybe we lose 27-10 or 33-10 but Josh wouldn’t have lost like that. 

[Thrivefourfive]

2 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

The superior talent on the eagles dline was the difference.  Buffalo had a similar level of investment but Philly has gotten more production.  Buffalo is missing a Jalen Carter level talent.  Ed has moments but Carter can be unblock-able.  His ability to beat double teams imo is the difference of the defenses. 

Carter isn’t the difference between the two defenses. The number of Eagles that would start on the Bills defense is the difference. 

[alg]

23 minutes ago, Thrivefourfive said:

I hate to do this here, but is Beane the bigger problem over McDermott? 
 

It would be easier to get rid of Beane and keep McDermott, and then release McDermott if that doesn’t work out in 1-3 years. 
 

We are all saying it. We don’t have the horses to do what the Eagles did— scheme wise because of talent deficiencies. So we can’t expect McDermott to coach ‘em up to do that, right?! There’s no talent. McDermott isn’t dumb and we watch him use his first aide kit, which only works if we force a TO or hold to FGs. So it worked a lot this season. But the D didn’t pass any eye test whatsoever. 
 

Beane’s draft record is getting worse. It’s declining. He drafts good players. But he misses on top player projections, and he misses on guys that eye test wise seem like they’d be lucky to even perform at their draft slot. He takes players and I think, what’s special about that nice looking college player..?? I don’t see any one skill that projects as a top performing talent in the NFL. 
 

Beane drafts B players everywhere in the draft. 
 

Beane should be the new Buffalo Bills Assistant GM/B Player Scout Specialist, where as Beane gets a few mid/late round picks and that’s it.

 

We are losing the draft and free agency to the better organizations. We need to rank our roster on Beane, and not give bonus points for having a top QB. 
 

Bottom line is Beane SHOULD BE SWEATING. Would Terry instill that pressure? McDermott  putting on that pressure, I don’t like it. He has other interests and his own responsibilities. 
 

I think McDermott is the smarter of the two, so I’d keep McDermott and move on from Beane if he: 1. Can’t land Garrett; 2. Loses our off season/draft; and we don’t get to the SB next season. I’m moving on.

 

I’ll be a jerk and say I laugh that McDermott looks genuinely amazed James Cook is out performing the team’s expectations that THEY placed on him from the DRAFT (Beane)

 

I'm inclined to agree with you, but would need to know this first: How much influence does McDermott have on Beane's 1st thru 3rd round draft selections?

 

Because the answer may also be - get McDermott out of the draft room.

 

In either case, it is clear that Beane is a 100% needs drafter at the top of the draft. His success on Day 3 gives me hope that, if he prioritize talent like Philly and Baltimore, he can be equally as effective.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

There was some of that even in the Bills game during the regular season...they were getting after him pretty good in that game...first INT on the 2nd play was caused by it. Not to that extent obviously, but we have seen it

 

This is what really baffles me about the AFCCG. In the regular season matchup we made it a point to contain rush Mahomes and it really affected him. Then in the AFCCG we completely abandoned it and Mahomes was doing whatever he wanted in the 1st half. For the life of me I can't figure out what changed. Same DL players were on the field.

[bouds]

37 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Probably the most simplified post ever....

 

Everyone wants to point to "scheme".  It's called the Eagles have all pro talent at every level, and an amazingly talented dline.

 

Fangio is playing his exact scheme he deployed in past stops, most recently Miami.  

 

They mixed man/zone all night.  But the key was the dline play.  Collapsed the pocket/suffocated the run game.  They could stay in 2 high looks and press, because of their dline and speed/talent at corner.

 

Amazing what happens to a defense that went from 28th to best in NFL---- Baun, DL acquisitions, and Mitchell/Coop.  They have crushed recent drafts, 3-4 critical upgrades to a defense that was injured LY and needed to improve at Cb and Safety.

 

TL/DR: you can't coach speed/talent into a player.  Fangio is a clear upgrade to their staff, but he's not better than Babich/McD.  Put us with that talent and see what happens.

 

Lot of truth here, not to take anything away from Fangio, but it's sometimes more Jimmy and Joes than X's and O's.  DL just wrecked things, and when you can get pressure generated at a 50%+ rate while only rushing 4 and dropping 7 good things happen.

 

Lets look at the below.

 

Baun on Worthy, is that a good scheme, no it's probably an easy touchdown, but Mahomes has no time to throw/rushes to get out of pocket.  It's also soft coverage, no press man like OP described.  Not saying they didnt press at times, but it was much more nuanced.

 

 

Edited 14 hours ago by bouds