It's the defensive line, stupid!

[JohnNord]

If this isn’t a tweet about talent on Philly vs. Buffalo, I don’t know what is:

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

25 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

 

It is not towards you specifically.  It's also not an accusation.  It's an obvious observation of what I see on here.  Bean sucks, McD sucks, the only reason we are winning is Josh.  Do we have any good players?  Nah.  Just some scrubs that Josh carries on his back.  These comments show certain fans dont like the team.  Sure they like the "Bills" and the uniforms.  But there are many on here who do not appreciate the players and the complexity of what goes into an organization that is one of the best since McBean has arrived.   People think just cause Josh is a special talent any moron can put a team next to him to win it all.  I do not agree with this take. 

Yes any successful organization has to have a balance between owner, HC, GM and players. And I'm the last one on this planet that wants to see Josh have to do most of it himself.  Yes after drafting Josh (kudos to McB), we've landed some good supporting players. But not great or elite defensive players. Like the thread title says from @Logic (and I agree 100%), Josh's amazing abilities have been wasted because of lost opportunities on the DL.  Wasted picks on guys like Elam, Basham, Epenesa and more. We swung and missed tragically on Von. Let's be honest with each other, Beanes track record on early picks has set us back in building a dominant playoff caliber defense around Josh.  And I'm convinced until we build that dominant D, we will settle for regular season accomplishments. 

Edited 8 hours ago by LABILLBACKER

[wppete]

11 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

I don't think we ever will have that kind of a defense because McBeane doesn't believe in the Eagle's concept of defense vs. their own (failed) strategy.

Cant agree more. McBeane is very arrogant and too blind to see that they have failed. They are still building for ‘culture’ after all these years. Again they hit the lottery with Josh Allen and they are the luckiest duo in the NFL. 

[Mike R]

Not only did the Eagles d line dominate and get pressure on Mahomes they played much tighter defense in coverage. Part of the Bills problem is the loose coverage that gives the qb a chance to make quick easy throws to wide open receivers before the d line even gets close to them. The Bills have a problem on defense.

[Aesop]

Dominant 1 tech. We've been missing it since McD came to town. Last night shows you exactly why it is so important.

[Dan]

3 minutes ago, Mike R said:

Not only did the Eagles d line dominate and get pressure on Mahomes they played much tighter defense in coverage. Part of the Bills problem is the loose coverage that gives the qb a chance to make quick easy throws to wide open receivers before the d line even gets close to them. The Bills have a problem on defense.

Agreed.  The Bills D line rarely generates pressure in their own, without some level of blitzing.    But the real problem is they play to avoid the big play at all cost, therefore they give big cushions to all the WRs.    
 

It’s a sound scheme that forces teams to matriculate the ball down the field.  It works against most teams.  But the top 4ish or so once you get the the playoffs… are too good and usually tear it up.  They need to change this defensive philosophy. And they need to figure out how to draft/trade for defensive playmakers.  We currently really have none. 

[Lost]

52 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

I don't think we ever will have that kind of a defense because McBeane doesn't believe in the Eagle's concept of defense vs. their own (failed) strategy.

 

Drafting culture and one's ability to play special teams seems to take priority over actual physical talent under McBeane.  

[JohnNord]

47 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Yes any successful organization has to have a balance between owner, HC, GM and players. And I'm the last one on this planet that wants to see Josh have to do most of it himself.  Yes after drafting Josh (kudos to McB), we've landed some good supporting players. But not great or elite defensive players. Like the thread title says from @Logic (and I agree 100%), Josh's amazing abilities have been wasted because of lost opportunities on the DL.  Wasted picks on guys like Elam, Basham, Epenesa and more. We swung and missed tragically on Von. Let's be honest with each other, Beanes track record on early picks has set us back in building a dominant playoff caliber defense around Josh.  And I'm convinced until we build that dominant D, we will settle for regular season accomplishments. 

If you’re going to be critical of this regime, it’s lack of high-end talent.  Hell McDermott came right out and said it at the end of his press conference.  
 

Every GM misses on draft picks.  As good as Brett Veach is, take a look at his history.  So even though missing on Elam and Basham hurt the team badly, it does happen.  
 

The problem with Beane isn’t that he misses very often.  He’s drafted a lot of solid players, a handful of above average players, and maybe even a few approaching high-end (Cook, Brown, Benford).  
 

He just never hit home runs. And in these big games you need your best players to step up.  Meanwhile one of those first round hopeful “home runs”  dropped a pass to end the Bills season. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

9 hours ago, Logic said:

Watching the game last night made one thing abundantly clear: the Bills' defensive line has, thus far, been the primary factor preventing them from winning a Lombard in the McDermott/Allen era.

It's not just that the Eagles pressured Mahomes on over 50% of his dropbacks and gave him a career high in sacks. It's the WAY they did it. Straight four man rush with zone coverage behind it. Not a SINGLE blitz all game long. Of course, there's a little more to it than that. Vic Fangio is an elite defensive mind. But the principles were simple: Play disciplined zone coverage in the back seven, cause havoc with your front four. Don't blitz.

It should also be a FAMILIAR strategy. If Sean McDermott had his way, it's how the Bills defense would play every single game. It's the exact strategy that, in an ideal world, he would employ full time. The only problem is that the Bills don't have the defensive line that the Eagles have, so employing this strategy does not typically lead to the same results.

Yes, the Chiefs o-line was injured and bad this year. Nevertheless, in BOTH Mahomes-led Chiefs Super Bowl losses, the primary reason for their defeat was an ass kicking DL across from them, kicking their butts, down after down. 

We know the Bills have been sinking resources into the DL year after year, and without great results to show for it. We must resist falling into the "sunk cost fallacy" and saying "hey, we tried that, it didn't work, can't keep doing it". On the contrary, the Bills MUST keep doing anything and everything to build a great defensive line. The Eagles invested premium draft picks in their DL year after year after year, until it became what it is today. The Bills cannot give up. They need to keep swinging.

Going all the way back to the Giants defense beating the unstoppable Patriots in that Super Bowl, to the Bucs beating the Chiefs in the Super Bowl, and now to the Eagles absolutely shellacking them last night. The evidence is clear. You want to beat an elite, all time great QB and offensive mind? Build an ass-kicking defensive line.

The Bills need DeWayne Carter and Javon Soloman to hit. They need a fearsome 1T. They need to take a swing on a Garrett or a Crosby or a Sweat. But regardless of HOW they do it, one thing is clear: fixing the defensive line should be the Bills' top priority this offseason. 
 

 

They've put alot of resources into the defense and not a whole lot to show for it imo...Ed Oliver (9th overall), Groot (28th), Epenesa (2nd round), Boogie Basham (2nd), Elam (1st), Terrell Edmunds (16th). one of them is almost out of the league, Elam might be salvaged on a better scheme fit but probably a career backup, Epenesa is just a rotational player, the other was let go into free agency, Groot and Oliver are solid but we needed elite players and they are not that at least not yet.  That is alot of misses by beane/McDermott and I put them both up there because although Beane picks the players I'm almost 99.9% certain both he and Sean go over the players together. They've swung and missed badly throughout their tenures here.

[JohnNord]

18 minutes ago, Mike R said:

Not only did the Eagles d line dominate and get pressure on Mahomes they played much tighter defense in coverage. Part of the Bills problem is the loose coverage that gives the qb a chance to make quick easy throws to wide open receivers before the d line even gets close to them. The Bills have a problem on defense.

That’s not a strength of the Bills corners.  It isn’t what they do well.

9 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

Drafting culture and one's ability to play special teams seems to take priority over actual physical talent under McBeane.  

Maybe if you’re a WR5.  
 

I don’t really agree with this at all - give me some examples

[Wizard]

Excellent thoughts by the OP.

 

We need nasty, tough, strong, and relentless defensive players that fill their assignments soundly and aggressively put constant pressure.

 

The Eagles defense is scary. They have like 6 pro bowl/all pro level talents mainly through the draft that are 27 or younger. Their defense is already set for next year. 

 

How many guys fit that assignment-sound and tough profile on our starting defense ?

 

Rousseau and Oliver occasionally. Milano, when healthy, perhaps. Benford and Taron Johnson? Bernard on occasion?

 

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

13 hours ago, Logic said:

Watching the game last night made one thing abundantly clear: the Bills' defensive line has, thus far, been the primary factor preventing them from winning a Lombard in the McDermott/Allen era.

It's not just that the Eagles pressured Mahomes on over 50% of his dropbacks and gave him a career high in sacks. It's the WAY they did it. Straight four man rush with zone coverage behind it. Not a SINGLE blitz all game long. Of course, there's a little more to it than that. Vic Fangio is an elite defensive mind. But the principles were simple: Play disciplined zone coverage in the back seven, cause havoc with your front four. Don't blitz.

It should also be a FAMILIAR strategy. If Sean McDermott had his way, it's how the Bills defense would play every single game. It's the exact strategy that, in an ideal world, he would employ full time. The only problem is that the Bills don't have the defensive line that the Eagles have, so employing this strategy does not typically lead to the same results.

Yes, the Chiefs o-line was injured and bad this year. Nevertheless, in BOTH Mahomes-led Chiefs Super Bowl losses, the primary reason for their defeat was an ass kicking DL across from them, kicking their butts, down after down. 

We know the Bills have been sinking resources into the DL year after year, and without great results to show for it. We must resist falling into the "sunk cost fallacy" and saying "hey, we tried that, it didn't work, can't keep doing it". On the contrary, the Bills MUST keep doing anything and everything to build a great defensive line. The Eagles invested premium draft picks in their DL year after year after year, until it became what it is today. The Bills cannot give up. They need to keep swinging.

Going all the way back to the Giants defense beating the unstoppable Patriots in that Super Bowl, to the Bucs beating the Chiefs in the Super Bowl, and now to the Eagles absolutely shellacking them last night. The evidence is clear. You want to beat an elite, all time great QB and offensive mind? Build an ass-kicking defensive line.

The Bills need DeWayne Carter and Javon Soloman to hit. They need a fearsome 1T. They need to take a swing on a Garrett or a Crosby or a Sweat. But regardless of HOW they do it, one thing is clear: fixing the defensive line should be the Bills' top priority this offseason. 
 

The push from the Eagles interior defensive line was the key, IMO. The same way the Bucs got to Mahomes in their SB. Mahomes likes to escape the pocket by stepping up. Eagles and Bucs defensive lines provided that push from Carter and Vea, respectfully which allowed the edge rushers to do their thing. If the Bills were able to draft the boys from Michigan, Grant and Mason, they could possibly be the answers to the Bills problem 

[LABILLBACKER]

13 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Bills need to start drafting elite players and stop worrying so much about scheme fit.  Sure that is important, but sometimes elite talent just makes it all moot.

I'm on "Roseman Draft Bot Team BPA" from here on out...If we don't land either Garrett or Crosby,  we sure as hell better get someone like Sweat or Koonce as a consolation prize.  Beane must make sure his scouts are competent. And draft DL until you throw up.

[billsfan89]

2 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I'm on "Roseman Draft Bot Team BPA" from here on out...If we don't land either Garrett or Crosby,  we sure as hell better get someone like Sweat or Koonce as a consolation prize.  Beane must make sure his scouts are competent. And draft DL until you throw up.

 

I think Beane's gotta make his second Diggs move. He's gotta make a big splash to land a Maxx Crosby type impact difference maker. D-line in the draft should be there but it is hard to get rookie D-line players to make huge impacts. Not saying you don't get players drafted later in round 1 or beyond who won't make an impact but that's very rare for a rookie DL player esp one drafted not around the top half of round 1. Beane's been pretty good at drafting from 2021-2023 (and early returns on 2024 are solid) but he's not hit "home run" picks. It's been a lot of doubles and triples and some singles but not a home run. And it's going to be hard to get a major impact from a draft pick right out the box. Offer pick 30, 208, and a 2026 3rd that could escalate to a 2nd for Maxx Crosby then take a DT and DE in round 2 as well that's a nice way to sure up the D-line short and longer term. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

It’s both. Our DBs have never been physical enough early in routes. We typically allow WRs free releases, even in man. We have got to be more aggressive in our coverage come playoff time.

 

 

 

[HappyDays]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

A lot of it comes down to playing well in the last game.

 

That's right. The Bills are proof of this. The same exact DL that everyone criticized after the AFCCG was one of our keys to victory over them in the regular season. Personally I think that AFCCG performance came down to poor contain discipline which is a problem of coaching and poor secondary play which is a problem of talent.

 

Building a DL that can do what Philly did yesterday, or the Bucs four years ago, is a pipe dream. Those teams did it with multiple top 16 draft picks and big FA spending none of which is going to be possible with Allen as our QB. We would need to already have a couple studs on the roster and Beane would still have to hit another few picks in the near future. You might as well wish for the Eagles group of offensive skill players if you're coming up with pie in the sky paths to a championship.

 

I think we're two legit WRs, one legit DL, and one legit CB or S away from being able to defeat the Chiefs in the playoffs. And it's realistic that Beane could find all of that in this coming offseason if he spends his picks and cap space appropriately.

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, JohnNord said:

If you’re going to be critical of this regime, it’s lack of high-end talent.  Hell McDermott came right out and said it at the end of his press conference.  
 

Every GM misses on draft picks.  As good as Brett Veach is, take a look at his history.  So even though missing on Elam and Basham hurt the team badly, it does happen.  
 

The problem with Beane isn’t that he misses very often.  He’s drafted a lot of solid players, a handful of above average players, and maybe even a few approaching high-end (Cook, Brown, Benford).  
 

He just never hit home runs. And in these big games you need your best players to step up.  Meanwhile one of those first round hopeful “home runs”  dropped a pass to end the Bills season. That would've led the Bills this season. 

We just need 1 HR defensive front 4 player. Think about this fact. Since Beane came on board May 9th, 2017, we've had just 1 player have a 10 sack season. Leonard Floyd a 1 yr FA rental. And ironically Floyd at 33 had 8.5 sacks this year w/ SF. That would've led the Bills this season. 

 

We missed on AJE. We swung and missed on Von.  It's highly doubtful we keep Greg "Tremaine" Rousseau after this season.  Who knows what we have in Carter/Solomon?  We haven't had an elite pass rusher since Mario Williams. McBeane had the correct strategy since 2017.  Unfortunately the guy buying the groceries purchased a bunch of rotting expired food. His offensive picks have been A-.  His defensive picks have been C+ and probably kept us out of multiple SB's.  He's gotta identify the failure (maybe poor scouts?) and fix it fast.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I think Beane's gotta make his second Diggs move. He's gotta make a big splash to land a Maxx Crosby type impact difference maker. D-line in the draft should be there but it is hard to get rookie D-line players to make huge impacts. Not saying you don't get players drafted later in round 1 or beyond who won't make an impact but that's very rare for a rookie DL player esp one drafted not around the top half of round 1. Beane's been pretty good at drafting from 2021-2023 (and early returns on 2024 are solid) but he's not hit "home run" picks. It's been a lot of doubles and triples and some singles but not a home run. And it's going to be hard to get a major impact from a draft pick right out the box. Offer pick 30, 208, and a 2026 3rd that could escalate to a 2nd for Maxx Crosby then take a DT and DE in round 2 as well that's a nice way to sure up the D-line short and longer term. 

I love the idea of going strong after Crosby. He's almost 2 years younger than Garrett and he'd be a little less expensive.  Yes it's going to cost cap & picks. I don't see any under the radar JJ Watt's floating around the 30's?  Obviously I'd love a speed wr, but my focus is on a plug n' play reliable DE and then draft these DT's.  BB just saw what it takes to make frogman wet his pants.