It's the defensive line, stupid!

[nuklz2594]

offense sells tix. defense wins championships.

mcmahon and dilfer won a super bowl. they managed the game. had a running game and stout defenses. we need a defense that has size and attitude. we have on the smallest dl ine the entire league...26th i believe. 

curious as to how how the drafting of the defense works.

 the dline is not complicated...have big men beat up little men....just go with HULK SMASH

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

I guess I’m being biased, but I think the Eagles have players with that extra gear in the tank that the Bills don’t have.

 

I can’t see Ed and Greg both coming out and being dominant from start to finish against KC. Ever. I just can’t. 
 

A guy like Jalen Carter had a ceiling that Ed and Greg don’t have. 

 

Yeah Jalen Carter was a #1 overall worthy player.   That was a disaster for other NFC contenders when he fell to the Eagles.

 

Put Oliver and Rousseau on either side of Carter and they will look like they found another gear(or 2).

 

Put Nolan Smith on the other side of Daquan Jones and I think there are complaints about Nolan Smith.

 

Carter is a game changer on the DL.   He doesn't come off the field and he gets pressures like a high end edge rusher from the inside.     

[Magox]

The on-the-surface hot take that people are getting from this game was that the Bills need to get more from their defensive line.    That is definitely true and they should look to address that in an urgent way but the story that is getting lost in watching Mahomes get dismantled was the fact that Philadelphias coverage units were just as dominant.

 

When Mahomes played the Bills he was hitting his first read all game long and getting the ball out on average 2.29 seconds per throw.

 

The scheme was entirely to predictable pre snap and the personnel was woefully inadequate.

 

Philadelphia took Mahomes off his first read all game long and by the time he got to his second read the pocket was collapsing on him and forcing sacks and errant throws.   By the time the second quarter came around Mahomes was feeling pressure that sometimes wasn’t even there, he was stepping into the pocket into the rush when he didn’t even need to.

 

The Bills have to get another quality corner to go along with Benford along with help on the line.

 

He averaged 3.3 seconds vs Philadelphia vs. 2.29 against the Bills. The Chiefs are 6-12 when Mahomes has an average time to throw of 3.23 seconds or longer.

 

He was getting the ball out immediately Vs the Bills and held onto it a full second longer against the Eagles.

 

The story of this game was elite level coverage just as much as it was the Defensive line.

 

 

[Allen2Moulds]

Agreed they have players all over, but the driving force of their entire defense, is Jalen Carter. He was regarded as the best player in the draft, but due to off field questions, he slipped to I believe to 9. We had the same opportunity when we drafted Oliver, over a guy like  DT Simmons.

Last year it was Cooper Dejean, who was mocked over and over to the Bills. We passed on him for Coleman, and thought there was a chance we would still land him if we were aggressive, and traded back into the 2nd round, but again the Eagles cashed in. 

As good as Beane is, there is a major gap between Beane and Howie Roseman. Honestly could be a big gap between Roseman and the rest of the league. 

 

[JohnNord]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

Watching the game last night made one thing abundantly clear: the Bills' defensive line has, thus far, been the primary factor preventing them from winning a Lombard in the McDermott/Allen era.

It's not just that the Eagles pressured Mahomes on over 50% of his dropbacks and gave him a career high in sacks. It's the WAY they did it. Straight four man rush with zone coverage behind it. Not a SINGLE blitz all game long. Of course, there's a little more to it than that. Vic Fangio is an elite defensive mind. But the principles were simple: Play disciplined zone coverage in the back seven, cause havoc with your front four. Don't blitz.

It should also be a FAMILIAR strategy. If Sean McDermott had his way, it's how the Bills defense would play every single game. It's the exact strategy that, in an ideal world, he would employ full time. The only problem is that the Bills don't have the defensive line that the Eagles have, so employing this strategy does not typically lead to the same results.

Yes, the Chiefs o-line was injured and bad this year. Nevertheless, in BOTH Mahomes-led Chiefs Super Bowl losses, the primary reason for their defeat was an ass kicking DL across from them, kicking their butts, down after down. 

We know the Bills have been sinking resources into the DL year after year, and without great results to show for it. We must resist falling into the "sunk cost fallacy" and saying "hey, we tried that, it didn't work, can't keep doing it". On the contrary, the Bills MUST keep doing anything and everything to build a great defensive line. The Eagles invested premium draft picks in their DL year after year after year, until it became what it is today. The Bills cannot give up. They need to keep swinging.

Going all the way back to the Giants defense beating the unstoppable Patriots in that Super Bowl, to the Bucs beating the Chiefs in the Super Bowl, and now to the Eagles absolutely shellacking them last night. The evidence is clear. You want to beat an elite, all time great QB and offensive mind? Build an ass-kicking defensive line.

The Bills need DeWayne Carter and Javon Soloman to hit. They need a fearsome 1T. They need to take a swing on a Garrett or a Crosby or a Sweat. But regardless of HOW they do it, one thing is clear: fixing the defensive line should be the Bills' top priority this offseason. 
 

Rush 4.  Cover 7.

 

This is the Sean McDermott defense.  Sadly for most of his tenure this hasn’t played out.  There are a few exceptions at the beginning of the 2022 and 2023 season.  When they get home with 4 it’s a different defense.  
 

But lack of pressure, coupled with a slower, unauthentic secondary has resulted in poor performances.  
 

The Bills are in a position where they really need an edge and a stud to play inside next to Oliver.  

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

53 minutes ago, TBBills Fan said:

Myles Garrett. I don't care what Beane has to do

I bet both 2nds and next years 1 get it done. That way we can keep our 1 this year

[The Firebaugh Kid]

1 hour ago, PoundingDog said:

So how did Eagles got there? Did they sign a Garrett that cost them 2 1st round picks+ to get there?

 

Look at their D-Line (3-4): 

LDE Milton Williams 3rd round pick 73rd overall by Phily

NT Jordan Davis 1st round pick 13th overall by Phily

RDE Jalen carter 1st round pick 9th overall by Phily

WLB Nolan Smith, 1st round pick 30th overall by Phily

SLB Josh Sweat, 4th round, 130th overall by Phily.

 

That's how you do it when you are paying your QB. 

 

Davis and Carter both early first rounders. Tough to get those picks when you're the second best team in the league each year. 

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, TFBillsfan said:

The reality this was a down year for KC and their pixie dust finally ran out. Their OL was a mess and only ONCE all season their offense scored more than 30 points. 

 

Secondly, it highlights how BAD, very BAD our overall D was in this past season. We all saw it each week. Zero pass rush on a consistent basis, inability to stop the run consistently and our woeful 3rd down D. In some regards, the Bills probably overachieved due to Josh and the O masking how bad the D was. When your O is scoring 30 plus a game, you tend to think it’s okay. 
 

At the end of the day, Beane and McDermott HAVE TO DRAFT better. They can’t continue to have non impactful players with their 1st picks. Beane wasted draft capital on trading up for Elam and Kincaid, while believing he had to add a big WR in Coleman. who can’t separate. He’s missed badly in the last three drafts on his first picks and it’s creating rippling impacts! We have two LB when healthy are good but they can’t stay healthy. Outside of Benford, our entire secondary is below avg. And finally, our DL, for all the draft capital and free agency money spent, they’ve yet to produce when it matters. They all individually have a game or two where they appear but far too many where they are MIA. 
 

Bottom line, the D needs a significant overhaul and upgrade of talent. 

Exactly.  That’s why I find it surprising that some Bills fans expected them to shut down Kansas City.  The defense struggled all season why they couldn’t get turnovers and this is largely due to a lack of of a pass rush and poor play in the secondary.
 

 Fortunately I do think the new coaching hires indicate that the defense will be multiple 

Just now, The Firebaugh Kid said:

Davis and Carter both early first rounders. Tough to get those picks when you're the second best team in the league each year. 

Sure but Elam was drafted around the same spot as Mitchell 2 years earlier and the Bills elected to bypass DeJean for a questionable pick in Keon Coleman.  You can’t miss on these picks the way Buffalo has 

[TheBeaneBandit]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

Watching the game last night made one thing abundantly clear: the Bills' defensive line has, thus far, been the primary factor preventing them from winning a Lombard in the McDermott/Allen era.

It's not just that the Eagles pressured Mahomes on over 50% of his dropbacks and gave him a career high in sacks. It's the WAY they did it. Straight four man rush with zone coverage behind it. Not a SINGLE blitz all game long. Of course, there's a little more to it than that. Vic Fangio is an elite defensive mind. But the principles were simple: Play disciplined zone coverage in the back seven, cause havoc with your front four. Don't blitz.

It should also be a FAMILIAR strategy. If Sean McDermott had his way, it's how the Bills defense would play every single game. It's the exact strategy that, in an ideal world, he would employ full time. The only problem is that the Bills don't have the defensive line that the Eagles have, so employing this strategy does not typically lead to the same results.

Yes, the Chiefs o-line was injured and bad this year. Nevertheless, in BOTH Mahomes-led Chiefs Super Bowl losses, the primary reason for their defeat was an ass kicking DL across from them, kicking their butts, down after down. 

We know the Bills have been sinking resources into the DL year after year, and without great results to show for it. We must resist falling into the "sunk cost fallacy" and saying "hey, we tried that, it didn't work, can't keep doing it". On the contrary, the Bills MUST keep doing anything and everything to build a great defensive line. The Eagles invested premium draft picks in their DL year after year after year, until it became what it is today. The Bills cannot give up. They need to keep swinging.

Going all the way back to the Giants defense beating the unstoppable Patriots in that Super Bowl, to the Bucs beating the Chiefs in the Super Bowl, and now to the Eagles absolutely shellacking them last night. The evidence is clear. You want to beat an elite, all time great QB and offensive mind? Build an ass-kicking defensive line.

The Bills need DeWayne Carter and Javon Soloman to hit. They need a fearsome 1T. They need to take a swing on a Garrett or a Crosby or a Sweat. But regardless of HOW they do it, one thing is clear: fixing the defensive line should be the Bills' top priority this offseason. 
 

Dude the secondary is severely lacking talent as well. It's kinda a 1a 1b situation, with the A being the line of course.

[GASabresIUFan]

I love all the revisionists on DeJean.  The bills were never drafting a CB last year with their first pick.  They had Benford and Douglas.  They invested in Elam with a premium pick.  They had a critical need at WR and S and that is what drafted.  
 

As to the DL.  I’d add a Crosby or Garrett.  I’d cut Miller’s pay in half and use him as a situational player.  I’d trade or cut AJE.  I’d then grab a run stuffer with a 2nd rd pick and a CB like DeJean in the 2nd rd.  
 

Groot will be so much more effective with a Crosby or Garrett on the other side.  It would also improve Oliver’s effectiveness as OLines have to double Garrett or Crosby.  
 

A Garrett or Crosby addition should also buy time for Solomon to develop or Beane to find someone in the draft for the long-term.

Edited 14 hours ago by GASabresIUFan

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

Watching the game last night made one thing abundantly clear: the Bills' defensive line has, thus far, been the primary factor preventing them from winning a Lombard in the McDermott/Allen era.

It's not just that the Eagles pressured Mahomes on over 50% of his dropbacks and gave him a career high in sacks. It's the WAY they did it. Straight four man rush with zone coverage behind it. Not a SINGLE blitz all game long. Of course, there's a little more to it than that. Vic Fangio is an elite defensive mind. But the principles were simple: Play disciplined zone coverage in the back seven, cause havoc with your front four. Don't blitz.

It should also be a FAMILIAR strategy. If Sean McDermott had his way, it's how the Bills defense would play every single game. It's the exact strategy that, in an ideal world, he would employ full time. The only problem is that the Bills don't have the defensive line that the Eagles have, so employing this strategy does not typically lead to the same results.

Yes, the Chiefs o-line was injured and bad this year. Nevertheless, in BOTH Mahomes-led Chiefs Super Bowl losses, the primary reason for their defeat was an ass kicking DL across from them, kicking their butts, down after down. 

We know the Bills have been sinking resources into the DL year after year, and without great results to show for it. We must resist falling into the "sunk cost fallacy" and saying "hey, we tried that, it didn't work, can't keep doing it". On the contrary, the Bills MUST keep doing anything and everything to build a great defensive line. The Eagles invested premium draft picks in their DL year after year after year, until it became what it is today. The Bills cannot give up. They need to keep swinging.

Going all the way back to the Giants defense beating the unstoppable Patriots in that Super Bowl, to the Bucs beating the Chiefs in the Super Bowl, and now to the Eagles absolutely shellacking them last night. The evidence is clear. You want to beat an elite, all time great QB and offensive mind? Build an ass-kicking defensive line.

The Bills need DeWayne Carter and Javon Soloman to hit. They need a fearsome 1T. They need to take a swing on a Garrett or a Crosby or a Sweat. But regardless of HOW they do it, one thing is clear: fixing the defensive line should be the Bills' top priority this offseason. 
 

Agree, but it will take a change in how they prioritize acquisition of said players, the question here is can they do it, and not employ the same pudding soft zone coverages that we have all grown far to accustomed to, a change in philosophy on defense needs to happen at the same time as bringing on board the “ new” D linemen, jmo. 

[billsfan714]

 Im just glad Im not going to hear much get a WR in round 1 this year.  I want DL--tackles and ends, more corners and better safeties.   I mean realistically, I only see possibly 3 guys on this DL that will be here in 2026--Oliver, Carter and possibly Rousseau, we usually keep about 9 DL, time for Beane to really overhaul this DL.  Douglas is gone most likely and hes old, need a starting CB, we know Elam isnt it.   Rapp is here one more year, Hamlin is a marginal starter, depth and starters needed at those 2 positions for sure.   I would be happy if this entire draft went to the D and one WR on offense.   The D is holding this team back.

[Yobogoya!]

10 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

Davis and Carter both early first rounders. Tough to get those picks when you're the second best team in the league each year. 

 

The seeds of the Carter pick were actually several years in the making: first they dealt Wentz for a conditional pick that became a 1st based on playing time, and then picked up multiple first rounders from New Orleans in a massive pick-swapping trade. 

 

That's probably another topic, but chaining draft capital into better draft capital is something Beane could stand to work on as well. He hasn't sold "high" on a player since he was gutting Whaley's old picks, and there's probably been opportunity to do so for guys who had the perception they were better than they were (ie, Tre Edmunds, Gabe Davis)

[TBBills Fan]

20 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

I bet both 2nds and next years 1 get it done. That way we can keep our 1 this year

If that gets it done, let's do it

[MiracleAtRich1393]

31 minutes ago, Magox said:

The on-the-surface hot take that people are getting from this game was that the Bills need to get more from their defensive line.    That is definitely true and they should look to address that in an urgent way but the story that is getting lost in watching Mahomes get dismantled was the fact that Philadelphias coverage units were just as dominant.

 

When Mahomes played the Bills he was hitting his first read all game long and getting the ball out on average 2.29 seconds per throw.

 

The scheme was entirely to predictable pre snap and the personnel was woefully inadequate.

 

Philadelphia took Mahomes off his first read all game long and by the time he got to his second read the pocket was collapsing on him and forcing sacks and errant throws.   By the time the second quarter came around Mahomes was feeling pressure that sometimes wasn’t even there, he was stepping into the pocket into the rush when he didn’t even need to.

 

The Bills have to get another quality corner to go along with Benford along with help on the line.

 

He averaged 3.3 seconds vs Philadelphia vs. 2.29 against the Bills. The Chiefs are 6-12 when Mahomes has an average time to throw of 3.23 seconds or longer.

 

He was getting the ball out immediately Vs the Bills and held onto it a full second longer against the Eagles.

 

The story of this game was elite level coverage just as much as it was the Defensive line.

 

 

Yes, Quinyon Mitchell & Cooper DeJean were the best CB & best safety in the draft this past year, it was the Eagles' weakness, and they both fell right into their lap. Pretty insane luck honestly

[PoundingDog]

The bottom line is to draft well, even if you have the early picks. The Bills have ignored the DT position for years. They drafted Ed Oliver high and Carter last year. That's it. They swung at DE a lot but mixed results. Even for the debate of Oliver pick, hindsight is 20-20 but there are a number of picks AFTER Oliver that went on to be much better players than Oliver.

 

I think they recognize that weakness --- that's why they took Carter and Bishop high. Things might still work out but year 1 does not look too good for Beane, particularly when we were this close on an unexpected year....

 

At the GM level, talent evaluation is one thing, important one I may add, but strategic decision is also important. We know the Bills are soft in the middle for, probably, McDermott and Beane's entire time in Buffalo. And the trend is teams are shifting a bit to run attack on us more and more each year. Yet all we did is signing 1 year contracts to the has-beens to bridge one more year continuously. 

[colin]

pass rush and corner, that's where we stank vs kc.  honorable mention to safety.

 

we've had one elite (or below) corner and one trash corner every playoffs.  we had white back when he was all pro, and levi wallace beside him.  we had injured white, and then young miracle benford, and then douglas.  last playoff and this one benford was hurt, and i think douglas was last year too but played when he wasn't really capable.  TJ7 is always getting banged up.

 

when the rams and detroit lit us up (detroit really only the last 20 min of the game) it was the same thing again.  our DL was awol vs the rams, they played pretty great vs detroit, but once we had corner and safety injuries, we just bled passing yards to them.

 

beyond whatever schematic changes our new coaching on D will get us, we just need some athletes.  perhaps most particularly, we need athletes and a scheme that can work together.  elam never getting burn at all means he's got no development.  I agree with many that he might just be a total bust and needs to go, but he's shown up before.  how is it hamlin was a person we decided could run our d optimally in the offseason?  there has got to be a change there, and while i'm a mcd hater, he's made some fairly big coaching moves (new dc, now a new secondary coach and new DL/assistant DC, all in the past 12 months).  

 

if you plug in a couple bad holes, even with rookies, fix the schematic issues where we just aren't multiple, and air drop a world beating talent like garrett, this d can get allen the ball a few more times without allowing points.  it will also make it hard for opponents to string together first downs (we allowed what, 20+ first downs a game?  it's crazy that we won so many) and long drives keeping allen away from the ball.

 

philly would have trucked out d, but my gosh would the bills have put up a better show against them on O.  we played kinda bad vs kc and had 4 tubs and a FG.  prime time allen mighta just messed around and throw in 5+ scores in the bowl

[Mat68]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yeah the Eagles want a better DL too.  

 

They had just 41 sacks and 30 hurries on the season.

 

Versus the Bills much maligned DL which had 39 sacks and 62 hurries.  

 

Josh Sweat and Milton Williams.....both pending free agents coming off statistically underwhelming seasons.........each just had their best games of the season in their last game and that's all that most non-Eagles fans saw of them this year.    Remember they had a historically great pass rush coming into their last SB versus the Chiefs and got nada.   Good OL beat good DL on neutral field.  

 

A lot of it comes down to playing well in the last game.    Just saying.   Eagles weren't loving their pass rush this season either.

Its not the edges its the interior. Buffalo has similar talent to Philly on the dline not named Jalen Carter.  Whether thats Hendrickson, Garret, or Crosby they are difference makers.  Keep cost down and go D in the draft.  Good year to look for Dline in the draft.   

[Shaw66]

Logic - thanks for this.  I had the same reaction watching last night.  I've read the first 30 or so posts, and many people are going off on other things - like the rest of the Eagles talent, Mahomes having a bad night, etc., but I think your point really is the key point in terms of where the Bills are deficient.  I think there are two points about the D line.

 

One is that McDermott applies his jackknife approach everywhere, but it doesn't work so well at D line. By jackknife approach, I mean that McDermott wants players who can do everything that might be needed at a position, and he will give up excellence at one skill to be sure the guy is good at all skills.  He wants strength and quickness and footspeed - ultimate versatility, but to get quickness and footspeed that is adequate in his mind, he gives up size and strength.  That means his defensive linemen at a disadvantage from the the get go, because they have trouble just overpowering offensive linemen and holding their position.

 

The other is that he's committed to his D line rotation.  He wants 8 or 10 d linemen who have that versatility. It's a good idea in one sense, because it's easier to find d linemen who are good at everything than to find big strong guys who are fast and quick enough.  They're easier to find because of their are more of them.  And that comes down to a question of resources - how much money do you have to spend on positions?  Those smaller, all-purpose guys can be found late in the first round for the best (like Oliver and Rousseau (well, he's not smaller)), and in later rounds for the guys who will do a good job you (like Epenesa and Carter).  You can get 8 good, versatile guys for the same cost as you can maybe 4 really good guys and 4 backups who aren't quite good enough to make McDermott's eight many rotation.  

 

What I concluded last night is that McDermott's approach to the D line is a nice idea, but it is a serious flaw in the playoffs, when you're up against the teams with the best o lines and the best offenses.  When you hit those teams, you have trouble stopping the run and you have trouble getting to the passer, and you're left with one strategy - hope that Allen and the offense can outscore the other guys.  Hasn't that been the story against the Chiefs, year after year - can we outscore them?

 

Last night, the Eagles D line put on a clinic about how to rush a mobile quarterback.  They allowed the offensive line to form the class pocket, they maintained lane discipline, and then they shrank the pocket, from the front and from the sides.  It was difficult for Mahomes to escape, and that escapability is one of his greatest strengths.  The Eagles were able to do it with size and strength.  In their philosophy, they are willing to give up some versatility in order to have a high percentage of one-on-wins.  One good example was the disastrous INT Mahomes threw deep in his own end.  Why did it happen?  Because his left tackle got pushed into Mahomes and disrupted the throw in the EXACT same way Chris Jones pushed Dawkins into Allen and forced Allen to underthrow Shakir in the end zone in the playoffs last year.  That's a play made by a defensive lineman who features power, not versatility.  

 

You can't have that kind of controlled power rush with the kind of personnel you need in order to play the rotation that McDermott favors. Why not?  Because you can't get really good power d linemen, who are expensive either in dollars or draft capital, and still afford eight to ten really versatile guys, each of whom you want to take 40% of the defensive snaps.  The only way you can have both is to underspend significantly at some other position.  

 

The Eagles will have this problem as Hurts's second contract begins to take over.  His cap hit in 2024 was only $13 million, and it's only $22 million for the coming season.  

 

But the cap is just a fact of life.  It was very clear last night that if you want to win the playoffs, there are two things you need: the right quarterback and a quality defensive line.  McBeane have some serious work to do in that second category. 

[GASabresIUFan]

2 hours ago, PoundingDog said:

So how did Eagles got there? Did they sign a Garrett that cost them 2 1st round picks+ to get there?

 

Look at their D-Line (3-4): 

LDE Milton Williams 3rd round pick 73rd overall by Phily

NT Jordan Davis 1st round pick 13th overall by Phily

RDE Jalen carter 1st round pick 9th overall by Phily

WLB Nolan Smith, 1st round pick 30th overall by Phily

SLB Josh Sweat, 4th round, 130th overall by Phily.

 

That's how you do it when you are paying your QB. 

 

 You do realize what those players have in common?  They were defensive standouts on UGAs National Champion Teams.  In fact the Eagles GM added Dean and Kelee Ringo from those teams.  He also has 4 Bama players including Hurts and D. Smith who all have National Championship pedigrees.  Noticing a trend?  Their GM drafts the best players from the best college football teams.  Guys who know how to win and expect to win.  That doesn't mean you can't win without such players, but it certainly helps.  

 

For example: Who was the best Bills player against KC in the playoffs?  James Cook, who won 2 National Championship while at Georgia.  We need more players like this.

 

The good news for Buffalo is that Ohio St has a ton of players in this draft including guys at positions of need and who could be reasonable available when we draft, assuming no Garrett trade.  Using ESPN's composite rankings: Tyleik Williams (DT) is ranked 20th,  WR Emeka Egbuka is 29th, Edge Rusher JT Tuimoloau is 58th, and Edge Rusher Jack Sawyer is 78th.  All of these guys would make the Bills better at positions of need.  

 

If we want the next Cooper DeJean, my vote is for Texas's Jahdae Barron (42nd in ESPN's rankings, but higher in others).