Run it back on offense...

[CincyBillsFan]

12 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

and focus on Defense almost entirely.

 

UFAs: Amari Cooper, Reggie Gilliam, Ty Johnson 

 

Over a week to reflect on that loss and the personell on our team is pretty clearly lacking on Defense, not offense.

 

OL: 100% set. I don't even see a single OL from the 53 man roster who won't be on there again next year.

 

For all the criticism Beane has been getting, applaud him for a pretty awesome OL... both starters and depth.

 

QB: obviously it's JA17 and who cares other than maybe money and who gives him the best vibes.

 

TE: set. Knox and Kincaid are pretty much roster locks. Morris and Davidson can fight it out for TE3 even though it'll probably be Morris.

 

RB: obviously Cook and Davis. Team loves Gilliam so I assume they're going to work something out. Ty Johnson is the wildcard. He was honestly really good this year and might be the only offensive player we're going to see leave. I do think Ray Davis has a similar skillset and if he absorbed anything from Ty, I hope it's pass blocking. Hope Cook absorbed that, too.

 

(Side note: extend Cook and create an offense that is Cook-centric in BOTH the run and pass game the way Thurm was in the 90s)

 

Wide Receiver: Here's the one everyone is up in arms about, but after McBeane's presser I feel differently.

 

Shakir is great and I hope Beane finds a way to lock him up long term on a deal good for both sides. He's obviously Josh's favorite target and they have great chemistry that can grow.

 

Samuel is on the team, contractually. He flashed when he was healthy. If he can stay healthy, he has great separation skills and speed.

 

Coleman is on the team, obviously. Good rookie season and getting better up til he got hurt. Then we all heard McBeane's comments. They had their exit interview and told Keon what they needed to. Work hard in the offseason (with the next 2 dudes) Keon.

 

Mack Hollins seems like a guy who isn't chasing money. Sign him, please. Awesome special teamer who legitimately plays the WR position well and has awesome perspective for the other guys.

 

Amari Cooper is the most controversial, but I think we should keep him. He was playing with a wrist injured enough that doctors said he could use surgery. First thing about him is his attitude. He's the anti-WR... just listen to his interviews. And he seems to love Buffalo. I heard someone say he's estimated at $15m per year? That's too much. I also doubt that's reality. I could see us re-signing him to a 2 year $18-$20 million deal and I'd be good with that. In the 90s Buffalo traded for a #2 WR who was 33 years old and that worked out pretty well. I think a healthy Amari Cooper with a full offseason with Buffalo would make for a much improved WR corps on its own.

 

At that point, it's playcalling not personell.

 

It's on you Brady!

 

GO BILLS!!!

Hollins is the most intriguing.  As the season wore on he kept on making big plays without to many drops.  In the playoffs he put up decent numbers.  It's possible that with another training camp in which he's clearly the #3/4 receiver he may actually develop into a very good WR.

 

Cooper is also interesting in that one wonders what a full off season/training camp might do to better integrate him into the O.  Ditto for a healthy Samuel and of course Shakir is the definition of a steady eddy.

 

So yea I could live with staying pat on O and throwing all the FA money and a good number of draft picks against the D.  I would use one of the 2nd or one of the 4th round picks to take a speed burner at WR though.

 

 

 

 

[st pete gogolak]

I agree that we don't have to do a lot on the offensive side of the ball this offseason.  Sign Johnson and Hollins.  Can you get a reasonable two year deal for Amari?  I'd be ok with that.  A healthy Cooper and Samuel should be sufficient for next year.  I don't get the red-hot hate for Coleman on this thread.  In hindsight, trading up for Brian Thomas Jr. (if that was possible) would have been ideal (giving up the #2 we used on Bishop but saving the #3 we used for Cooper) or drafting McConkey.  But still, before the injury almost everyone was very high on Coleman.  Post-injury was a disaster.  I do agree that he is best suited for a big slot role and we appear to have an overabundance of slot receivers.  Not sure how that is rectified.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

22 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Knox - TE, primarily in line

Kincaid - TE in name only, best utilized as a Big Slot WR (Z)

Shakir - slot WR (Z)

Samuels - Y/Z WR

Hollins - X/Y (but backup level)

Coleman - Big Slot (Z)

 

We have a lot of Zs, one Y and no starting caliber X. When they drafted him Beane did say that they envisioned Coleman as an X, but that was an exception to the prevailing opinion of draft pundits and other GMs. They said that they thought that his best chance of success would be as a big slot WR. 

 

Note: The X WR lines up winds and on the LOS, the Y is wide and off the LOS and the Z is in the slot.

X is our biggest hole so they wanted to draft an X. They drafted Coleman because he fit the the body type of a traditional X and could block. 
 

Yes we have multiple options at slot. I think they can move players around. I think they will move Coleman around more next year. This year they probably didn’t want to give him too much. As I said, something like 40% slot is perfect.

 

I also think Samuel’s role can increase next year and move around more to different positions. 
 

Kincaid is interesting. I think there’s a possibility that if he doesn’t have a strong offseason the Bills phase him out of the offense. Kincaid and Coleman need strong offseasons. I don’t think either player is going to be handed a role next year.

Edited 23 hours ago by Buffalo_Stampede

[MikePJ76]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

X is our biggest hole so they wanted to draft an X. They drafted Coleman because he fit the the body type of a traditional X and could block. 
 

Yes we have multiple options at slot. I think they can move players around. I think they will move Coleman around more next year. This year they probably didn’t want to give him too much. As I said, something like 40% slot is perfect.

 

I also think Samuel’s role can increase next year and move around more to different positions. 
 

Kincaid is interesting. I think there’s a possibility that if he doesn’t have a strong offseason the Bills phase him out of the offense. Kincaid and Coleman need strong offseasons. I don’t think either player is going to be handed a role next year.

Important to note Coleman had a serious wrist injury and Kincaid played the last 8 weeks plus playoffs on a torn pcl.

 

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Just now, MikePJ76 said:

Important to note Coleman had a serious wrist injury and Kincaid played the last 8 weeks plus playoffs on a torn pcl.

 

 

Beane reads post.

Beane starts drafting bulky defensive players, and tells McDermott to convert them to WRs.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, MikePJ76 said:

Important to note Coleman had a serious wrist injury and Kincaid played the last 8 weeks plus playoffs on a torn pcl.

 

 

Yes. GM and coach called them out though. They need strong offseasons.

 

 

[Warriorspikes51]

No idea about contract situation

 

but I’d call the Niners on Kittle

 

Kincaid and a pick for George

 

[BarleyNY]

27 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

X is our biggest hole so they wanted to draft an X. They drafted Coleman because he fit the the body type of a traditional X and could block. 
 

Yes we have multiple options at slot. I think they can move players around. I think they will move Coleman around more next year. This year they probably didn’t want to give him too much. As I said, something like 40% slot is perfect.

 

I also think Samuel’s role can increase next year and move around more to different positions. 
 

Kincaid is interesting. I think there’s a possibility that if he doesn’t have a strong offseason the Bills phase him out of the offense. Kincaid and Coleman need strong offseasons. I don’t think either player is going to be handed a role next year.

Those are terrible reasons to draft a WR at 33 to play X. The issue there is that Coleman was a poor separator in college. He was not particularly good at contested catches either. Oh, and he’s not fast by NFL WR standards. So you wind up with a player on the outside who has to make his living on the sideline with contested and back shoulder catches. That kind of WR doesn’t draw coverage away from the MOF or require a safety over the top.  Coleman is young so I am not writing him off yet, but I don’t have any real hope for him either. The investment is made so you might as well see what we can do with it. Yes, he needs a very good offseason. But we still need that X. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

13 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Those are terrible reasons to draft a WR at 33 to play X. The issue there is that Coleman was a poor separator in college. He was not particularly good at contested catches either. Oh, and he’s not fast by NFL WR standards. So you wind up with a player on the outside who has to make his living on the sideline with contested and back shoulder catches. That kind of WR doesn’t draw coverage away from the MOF or require a safety over the top.  Coleman is young so I am not writing him off yet, but I don’t have any real hope for him either. The investment is made so you might as well see what we can do with it. Yes, he needs a very good offseason. But we still need that X. 

They had a horrible plan at WR last year. 
 

But they also had an historically good offense. It was just a weird season last year. Part of me says run it back but the majority of me says last year isn’t sustainable. You need WRs that separate.

 

 

[BillsShredder83]

13 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Nah we need a playmaker at WR. Someone that’s going to command a double team. If they can find upgrade to Mack Hollins or Amari Cooper they should do it

Agreed. However my argument for Cooper is i think hes a completely different guy with a full TC and offseason to get on same page with Josh. if he wants to play on a contender and the $$ is close, i can 100% see him here.

 

theres a reason in season nfl trades are so rare.  this is exactly why.  wish hed had 1 more year on his deal, but i think a 1yr prove it deal or a 2-3 year fair deal could work out great for both sides

[Magox]

Even though there is this unreasonable narrative among some of the faithful here at TBD that the offense lacks firepower the fact is that the Bills averaged 3 points per drive this year on offense which puts it at one of the most productive scoring offenses ever in the NFL.

 

The offense is for the most part set for next year, there are no splash moves that are necessary.   
 

With another year of development from Keon, Shakir continuing to grow, Kincaid who I absolutely believe will bounce back in a big way and having Samuels and Mack Hollins (I hope we bring him back) in their second year along with Cook at RB and a top tier offensive line, the team will do very well again next year.  
 

Here is a fun fact, the Chiefs who have a top defense only gave up 29 points or more twice in all of this year including the playoffs.   Guess what teams they were?

 

Thats right, Buffalo got both of them.   Yeah, the problem isn’t offense.
 

Use one of your premium draft picks at WR and that’s plenty.   The defense is where the changes need to be made.

[Kelly to Allen]

I really think Cooper has lost a step, maybe more. If he came back as a veteran backup, I think that's okay but he looks kinda washed. 

 

If he wants to be a number 4 that's fine 

[tigerthelion]

7 minutes ago, Magox said:

Even though there is this unreasonable narrative among some of the faithful here at TBD that the offense lacks firepower the fact is that the Bills averaged 3 points per drive this year on offense which puts it at one of the most productive scoring offenses ever in the NFL.

 

The offense is for the most part set for next year, there are no splash moves that are necessary.   
 

With another year of development from Keon, Shakir continuing to grow, Kincaid who I absolutely believe will bounce back in a big way and having Samuels and Mack Hollins (I hope we bring him back) in their second year along with Cook at RB and a top tier offensive line, the team will do very well again next year.  
 

Here is a fun fact, the Chiefs who have a top defense only gave up 29 points or more twice in all of this year including the playoffs.   Guess what teams they were?

 

Thats right, Buffalo got both of them.   Yeah, the problem isn’t offense.
 

Use one of your premium draft picks at WR and that’s plenty.   The defense is where the changes need to be made.

Slight problem with the offense against KC was that it relied on about a half dozen or more Josh Allen tumbles into the line of scrimmage, risking life and limb to pick up a yard.  When they needed a drive with three minutes left, an Allen run was about all they could muster.  Yes, they scored 29 on KC but they were not easy points.  I am all for using Josh Allen as a running weapon, but they gotta find a way to pick up a yard without putting him in harms way so much. Gotta have another option than Josh sitting , rolling, waiting for someone to get open.  Gotta have a better option than stone hands Kincaid on 4th down.  Gotta do better than non factors like Cooper and Coleman. 

[Freddie's Dead]

This is the perfect formula for lather, rinse, repeat.  ***** the defense.  Time to load up on offense, and don't give me this Kincaid and Coleman bull####.  Get a legit 1 in here, like Tee Higgins, Ja'Marr Chase, Cooper Kupp, etc.  

[folz]

7 hours ago, Pete said:

LMAO.  Keon is bust city.  We are desperate for WR that can separate, take the top off the D, run a full route tree.  Keon does none of the above.  Plodding Keon cannot beat a jam.  He is a fish out of water lining up outside.  I know what my eyes see- a plodding, awkward WR who prefers playing paddy cakes then high pointing the ball.  Beane, McD, Marino, etc have echoed my concerns publicly.  Keon has caught only 7 out of 21 passes since the Poyer hit.  Shakir is the only WR that can get open.

 

Dude, where are you getting this? If it's your eyes, I'd say get them checked.

 

Now, I'm not saying the Bills should go into next season expecting Keon to be a #1 or anything...but a bust? Come on. Fans these days are so impatient and never take into account any real-world factors.

 

Keon had 568 yards and 4 TDs. He was 8th among rookie WRs, just below Xavier Worthy (only 82 yards behind Worthy---on 4 fewer games). 

 

BUT...Keon was injured pretty bad in week 9 against Miami (concussion, wrist injury). He missed 4 games and wasn't quite himself still when he came back. Plus, when you are out for 4 games and still iffy for two more, the offense needs to move on---find other ways/other players to go to. When you come back (as a rookie/not some all-pro), it may be tough to work you back into how the offense with how its developed while you were out. For instance, after the injury (and outside of the NE game the final week of the season when the backups were in), Keon only averaged 3 targets per game the rest of the season.

 

If you pro-rate his games pre-injury out to a whole season, he would have had 842 yards and 6 TDs. (Remember Keon just had his first 100-yard game and followed it up with 70 yards and a TD the two games before the injury---he was coming on.) That would have put him over Worthy and Odunze, and right about the same stats as Marvin Harrison, Jr. 

 

Also, if you think 8th on the rookie WR list (despite the injury) is bad, well let's look at target shares:

Thomas Jr: 133 targets; Nabers: 170 targets; Bowers: 153 targets; McConkey 112 targets; Harrison, Jr.: 116 targets; Odunze: 101 targets; Worthy: 98 targets; Coleman: 57 targets.

 

If you pro-rate Coleman's stats out to the number of targets that Worthy had, he would have had 956 yards (Worthy had 638). If you pro-rate his stats out to the number of targets that Nabers had (the most of all rookies), Keon would have had 1,658 yards (Nabers had 1,204). Now, pro-rating just gives an idea...I'm not saying Keon would have had those stats with more targets, but it just shows that you can't just look at yards for rookies and call Keon a bust, without also looking at his injury and the disparity in number of targets. I mean Keon only had 33% the number of targets as Nabers, for instance. Not only does that affect the stats, but more targets and more games means more experience and possibly a quicker development as well.

 

Coleman did have the best yards/reception and yards/target of any rookie WR this year. He was actually 4th in the league among all receivers (not just rookies) for yards/reception and tied for 15th among all receivers in yards/target (tied with Ja'mar Chase and Khalif Raymond). And all of the rookies above him played a full season (17 games) except for Nabers (who missed 2 games, but still somehow had the most targets of any rookie WRs).

 

I think people are foolish to write Keon off. In fact, no rookie should be written off after just their first year. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

45 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

This is the perfect formula for lather, rinse, repeat.  ***** the defense.  Time to load up on offense, and don't give me this Kincaid and Coleman bull####.  Get a legit 1 in here, like Tee Higgins, Ja'Marr Chase, Cooper Kupp, etc.  

They need a cheap WR1. I wish they went up for Brian Thomas JR. We need to find a WR1 on a rookie contract.  

Adding a $20+ million Wr isn’t happening.

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Buffalo_Stampede

[Pete]

30 minutes ago, folz said:

 

Dude, where are you getting this? If it's your eyes, I'd say get them checked.

 

Now, I'm not saying the Bills should go into next season expecting Keon to be a #1 or anything...but a bust? Come on. Fans these days are so impatient and never take into account any real-world factors.

 

Keon had 568 yards and 4 TDs. He was 8th among rookie WRs, just below Xavier Worthy (only 82 yards behind Worthy---on 4 fewer games). 

 

BUT...Keon was injured pretty bad in week 9 against Miami (concussion, wrist injury). He missed 4 games and wasn't quite himself still when he came back. Plus, when you are out for 4 games and still iffy for two more, the offense needs to move on---find other ways/other players to go to. When you come back (as a rookie/not some all-pro), it may be tough to work you back into how the offense with how its developed while you were out. For instance, after the injury (and outside of the NE game the final week of the season when the backups were in), Keon only averaged 3 targets per game the rest of the season.

 

If you pro-rate his games pre-injury out to a whole season, he would have had 842 yards and 6 TDs. (Remember Keon just had his first 100-yard game and followed it up with 70 yards and a TD the two games before the injury---he was coming on.) That would have put him over Worthy and Odunze, and right about the same stats as Marvin Harrison, Jr. 

 

Also, if you think 8th on the rookie WR list (despite the injury) is bad, well let's look at target shares:

Thomas Jr: 133 targets; Nabers: 170 targets; Bowers: 153 targets; McConkey 112 targets; Harrison, Jr.: 116 targets; Odunze: 101 targets; Worthy: 98 targets; Coleman: 57 targets.

 

If you pro-rate Coleman's stats out to the number of targets that Worthy had, he would have had 956 yards (Worthy had 638). If you pro-rate his stats out to the number of targets that Nabers had (the most of all rookies), Keon would have had 1,658 yards (Nabers had 1,204). Now, pro-rating just gives an idea...I'm not saying Keon would have had those stats with more targets, but it just shows that you can't just look at yards for rookies and call Keon a bust, without also looking at his injury and the disparity in number of targets. I mean Keon only had 33% the number of targets as Nabers, for instance. Not only does that affect the stats, but more targets and more games means more experience and possibly a quicker development as well.

 

Coleman did have the best yards/reception and yards/target of any rookie WR this year. He was actually 4th in the league among all receivers (not just rookies) for yards/reception and tied for 15th among all receivers in yards/target (tied with Ja'mar Chase and Khalif Raymond). And all of the rookies above him played a full season (17 games) except for Nabers (who missed 2 games, but still somehow had the most targets of any rookie WRs).

 

I think people are foolish to write Keon off. In fact, no rookie should be written off after just their first year. 

 

[Kelly to Allen]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

 

 

Yeah I'm pretty high on Coleman. I just think he needs an off season to work on the nuances of the position. 

 

Working out with Moulds is something he should do 

 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Kelly to Allen

[Jimmy Harris 69]

I would love to see the Bills go get JALIN HYATT from the Giants (6' 0", 185 lbs). He had a solid rookie year in 23 averaging 16.7 yds on 23 catches. He got lost on their depth chart last year. He was the Fred Biletnikoff Award winner coming out of Tennessee. Instead of having to develop a rookie, they could mold this kid. Maybe the Giants need a cornerback who needs a fresh start….

 

 

[Da webster guy]

We scored 30 pts a game and ranked 2nd in the league on offense.   Certainly good enough to beat KC, Detroit and Baltimore because we beat all three.   Offense comes down to QB and Oline.   If those are solid then you don't focus resources there, you look at your defense who got happened to get slaughtered by Detroit, KC, Balt, even Miami and you see some holes.    

 

When people say "we need someone who can command a double team" I say Why?   We had a better offense without Diggs.   Is that really what you take away from watching this season?   I saw a team that forced zero punts against Baltimore and could not stop anyone on 3rd down most games and all teams on their first drive seemed to just walk down the field and spot themselves 7 points.   

 

Beaner needs to go for Crosby or Garrett.   We will be past Diggs and Von's cap hits.  Make it happen.