Who are the Bills elite players and do the Bills have enough elite players to win a Super Bowl?

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

Bro they lost the AFC championship by 3 on the road.... against the greatest dynasty ever possibly. 

 

I agree with you about getting a max Crosby and drafting a couple stud CBS. 

 

 

Yeah, I would consider it a significant disappointment that the pinnacle of the team with Josh Allen at QB is losing in the AFCCG twice. 

You had some clarity that this team wasn’t good enough but you are falling back into your old ways. Shakir is gonna be the next Antonio Brown sans the crazy, Dorian is better than Roquan, Kincaid is Tony Gonzalez and not a geriatric disappointing 3rd year player. 

What is next lol

Edited Saturday at 05:16 PM by FireChans

[Kelly to Allen]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Yeah, I would consider it a significant disappointment that the pinnacle of the team with Josh Allen at QB is losing in the AFCCG twice. 

You had some clarity that this team wasn’t good enough but you are falling back into your old ways. Shakir is gonna be the next Antonio Brown sans the crazy, Dorian is better than Roquan, Kincaid is Tony Gonzalez and not a geriatric disappointing 3rd year player. 

What is next lol

 

It's not the Pinnacle. They had 70 million in dead cap and it was a reset year. 

 

This team is already ahead of the 88 team imo. 

[90sBills]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yeah, I would consider it a significant disappointment that the pinnacle of the team with Josh Allen at QB is losing in the AFCCG twice. 

 

Don’t sell us short. We can definitely make it a third time or even a fourth time. 

[Sojourner]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yeah, I would consider it a significant disappointment that the pinnacle of the team with Josh Allen at QB is losing in the AFCCG twice. 

You had some clarity that this team wasn’t good enough but you are falling back into your old ways. Shakir is gonna be the next Antonio Brown sans the crazy, Dorian is better than Roquan, Kincaid is Tony Gonzalez and not a geriatric disappointing 3rd year player. 

What is next lol

 

 

 

Dorian Williams>Roquan Smith?!

Shakir=AB84?!

Kincaid=Tony G?!

 

F me bro. That’s some wild takes lmao

Edited Saturday at 05:21 PM by Sojourner

[Shortchaz]

Elite to me means: in the conversation as best at their position (for the time period they play in), potential hall of farmer, all-pro considerations. 
 

Josh meets that criteria obviously, not sure any other player on the roster does. 
 

Dawkins best attribute is availability. he’s a good/very good player that is always on the field. Need players like him on the roster and glad to have him but don’t think he’s elite. 

Cook was impressive this season, but I’m not ready to call him elite. He will need to string a few seasons together to make the jump. Quietist 16 touchdown season ever.
 

Taron Johnson is good at what he does but being the best nickel corner is like being the best slot receiver. There’s a reason you’re in that position to begin with. 
 

Benford could be elite I guess, I have no idea. The only time I hear anything about him is on here. I’m not being flippant, I have no idea. When I think of best corner, zone coverage isn’t what I’m picturing.
 

no one else on the roster is a serious candidate. 

Edited Saturday at 05:25 PM by Shortchaz

[Thurman#1]

4 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

That and Kincaid already broke out as a rookie. 

 

Like I said it's getting silly now. 

 

 

 

 

I see. Guys who play well as a rookie are then finished and never get better?

 

Sorry, that's just dumb. 

 

This was his second year. He might end up never improving again. But he also might be much much better. It happens quite often with guys going from their 2nd to 3rd years.

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

That's flat-out ridiculous. Of course it's early. Very early. He was a rookie in 2023 and this year was his second year in the NFL, which is way early. 

 

Um, yes, 26. Second year in the NFL. That's how this is looked at. Spending two years at JUCO and three years at Utah isn't going to count as NFL experience. The idea's dumb.

 

Josh, when he was 26, was in his fifth NFL year. And he was very unspecial in his first two.

 

 

 

 

I respect your opinion but I think you are incorrect.

 

Josh came in very raw. And young. Much higher ceiling.

 

Keon is also very raw. Young. Much higher ceiling. 
 

Kincaid was not raw. He was old. 
 

There’s less room to grow when you come into the NFL at 24 instead of 21. You aren’t going to grow into your body much more. 
 

I think there’s a better chance Kincaid’s rookie year is one of the best years of his career than there is that he turns into an All Pro next year.

23 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Roquan Smith is overrated. He's extremely stiff, can't cover and lives on taking on a fullback. All 3 Bills linebackers are more talented

 

3 minutes ago, Sojourner said:

 

 

 

Dorian Williams>Roquan Smith?!

Shakir=AB84?!

Kincaid=Tony G?!

 

F me bro. That’s some wild takes lmao

It’s wild.

 

Dorian “spinning like a top on HB misdirection” Williams is more talented than Roquan “3x first team All-Pro” Smith. Lol

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

Josh Allen is all I see. A lot of great players though.

[jaybeezee]

22 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

 

This is the one area where Beane has truly missed the mark.  Oliver and Groot are good players, but not elite.  Both maybe "better" if they had better players on the line with them.  Beane has invested a fair amount of draft capital on the DL in Harrison Phillips (96th pick in 2018), Oliver (9th in 2019), AJE (54th in 2020), Rousseau (30th in 2021), Basham (61st in 2021), & Carter (95th overall in 2024).  Only Basham is a true bust.  Phillips has become a very good player for the Vikings.  AJE continues to disappoint and should be replaced.  

Groot rarely ever gets doubled and I have seen TEs and RBs block him pretty easily.  

 

Physically he should be a beast, but he's been here for 4 years and has really yet to show anything consistently.  He'll have a game or two in a 17 game season where you start to think maybe he's figured it out, but nope.

[Thurman#1]

22 minutes ago, Logic said:

Kincaid has been a disappointment in his first two years. There's no reasonable way to state otherwise.

He had a promising rookie year, but not earth shattering. He was outplayed by a tight end chosen after him.

In his second year, he was hurt, ineffective, or both, all year long. Credit to him for playing through it, but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't produce.

He ended the year being often outsnapped and outplayed by Dawson Knox, seeing like 20% of the snaps in the AFC Championship game, dropping a pass that would've put the Bills in tying field goal range, and being called out by his coach and GM as "not having the year they expected" and needing to put on weight.

I liked the pick, too. I had high hopes, too. We can all play the "what would've been if he wasn't hurt?" game all we want, but it won't change the REALITY that the Kincaid pick, to this point, has been a flop, and that the tight end already on our roster and making big money has mostly outplayed him.

 

 

"Kincaid has been a disappointment in his first two years. There's no reasonable way to state otherwise," you say?

 

That's just not true. Not at all.

 

Here's a reasonable alternative. Kincaid's first year was an absolute success. However his second year was a disappointment. He took a step back for some reason.

 

That's every bit as reasonable.

 

He was 10th in the league among TEs as a rook in yardage. 7th in receptions. One of the best in completions/target. Better than promising. Outright very good, particularly for a rookie. 

 

Definitely a drop backwards. But why? Some kind of injury? Disagreement with the OC? Needed more of a blocker at TE? Later in the route progressions and Josh threw to earlier alternatives? Lost the ability to get open? It's just not clear. But maybe getting clearer after that Katherine Fitzgerald tweet

 

His snaps went down, 699 (63%) to 471 (57%).

 

"Dawson Knox said that TE Dalton Kincaid was playing on a torn PCL in one knee and with an aggravated other knee -- "It's insane what he's played through."

 

You can find the tweet in this article, if you haven't seen it.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/bills-gm-brandon-beane-weighs-in-on-te-dalton-kincaid-s-sophomore-season/ar-AA1ycXle

 

Beane mentioned it in the PC too. Also implied he needs to build up play strength. So that would appear to be something he will likely be trying to work on also.

Edited Saturday at 05:47 PM by Thurman#1

[Allen2Moulds]

I think it's obvious that KC has the coaching advantage. Reid and Spags are both superior and prob both the best at what they do. That being said, I think Veach's roster building is far superior to Beane. I think the gap there is a little bigger.

[jaybeezee]

20 minutes ago, Allen2Moulds said:

No, we need more.

Here are the 1st pick in each of the last 4 rounds.

Elam - Bust

Rosseau- average

Kincaid - average

Coleman- below average.

 

These are the guys that are suppose to make the difference in the biggest games, and are often no shows or invisible. That's why draft picks are overrated sometimes, if you have an opportunity to go after an impact player at a key position.

 

 

 

 

There are people on this board that will argue that these guys have shown us things that make us excited for the future, but in reality I don't see anything special about any of them.

 

This is why we can't get over the KC hump. Drafting average talent and starting them in Playoff games.

[The Frankish Reich]

13 minutes ago, Shortchaz said:

Elite to me means: in the conversation as best at their position (for the time period they play in), potential hall of farmer, all-pro considerations. 
 

Josh meets that criteria obviously, not sure any other player on the roster does. 
 

Dawkins best attribute is availability. he’s a good/very good player that is always on the field. Need players like him on the roster and glad to have him but don’t think he’s elite. 

Cook was impressive this season, but I’m not ready to call him elite. He will need to string a few seasons together to make the jump. Quietist 16 touchdown season ever.
 

Taron Johnson is good at what he does but being the best nickel corner is like being the best slot receiver. There’s a reason you’re in that position to begin with. 
 

Benford could be elite I guess, I have no idea. The only time I hear anything about him is on here. I’m not being flippant, I have no idea. When I think of best corner, zone coverage isn’t what I’m picturing.
 

no one else on the roster is a serious candidate. 

Depends what you call "elite." I would consider that term to apply to the top 5 (QBs, RBs) or top 10 (WRs, CBs, etc.) at his position.

 

So Josh is a no doubter. I think Benford stepped up into that category this year. The others? Very good players, but you gotta leave room for the Saquons before you put a guy like Cook in there.

[Buffalo Ballin]

Beane has to draft Matt Milano's replacement. Matt Milano hit 30 years old. It's time to draft a new kid.

[Mikie2times]

41 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Good teams absolutely did not do anything they wanted against our secondary in the Poyer and Hyde years, that's nonsense. Mahomes, obviously, did well enough to beat us consistently in the playoffs. But nobody else really stopped him either.

 

In 2022 we were 2nd in defensive passer rating, in 2021, way out in first holding opposing QBs to an average passer rating of 70.1, 7th in 2020, 4th in 2019, 3rd in 2018 and 5th in 2017. That's consistent excellence against the pass. 

 

As for specific games when good teams very much did not do anything they wanted against our secondary during those years, check out the passing success of:

 

KC 10/10/21  Mahomes 33/54-272-2-2

TB 2021  Brady 2243 269 0-0 passer rating 70.8 19 points scored (Tampa was the #2 offense that year)

 

Just the first two I looked at.

I have no idea how good they actually were. Probably pretty good. But we still had trouble containing a lot of good passing attacks and we still have players who aren’t very good perform well at Safety. They still had teams not pursue them while being very young In FA. I don’t think every sign points to them being elite. But it’s a fairly unscientific evaluation process anyway. 

 

Edited Saturday at 05:44 PM by Mikie2times

[Sojourner]

19 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I respect your opinion but I think you are incorrect.

 

Josh came in very raw. And young. Much higher ceiling.

 

Keon is also very raw. Young. Much higher ceiling. 
 

Kincaid was not raw. He was old. 
 

There’s less room to grow when you come into the NFL at 24 instead of 21. You aren’t going to grow into your body much more. 
 

I think there’s a better chance Kincaid’s rookie year is one of the best years of his career than there is that he turns into an All Pro next year.

 

It’s wild.

 

Dorian “spinning like a top on HB misdirection” Williams is more talented than Roquan “3x first team All-Pro” Smith. Lol

Fair points, age can definitley play a part in terms of how you can pan out but if you’re old and raw that’s as much on a player and their willingness to be the best coupled with a great positional coach. I’m not sure who his was in college but they are a necessity for installing the basic and unconscious fundamentals you have when playing the game. A pro coach is where they master fine tuning what they do best. 
 

Bro, I’m a huge fan of Dorian and think he could be a decent starter in this league if he was more disciplined but Roquan Smith he definitely is not. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I have no idea how good they actually really were. Probably pretty good. But we still had trouble containing a lot of good passing attacks and we still have players who aren’t very good perform well at Safety. They still had teams not pursue them while being very young In FA. I don’t think every sign points to them being elite. But it’s a fairly unscientific evaluation process anyway. 

 

 

I don't think Hyde was ever elite. At his peak I think Poyer had a couple of elite level seasons. And Tre White at his peak was definitely elite.

 

The Bills D 2020-2022 was legitimately excellent. It didn't get it done in the playoffs, that is fair. But it was a very good defense. 

[Logic]

10 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

"Kincaid has been a disappointment in his first two years. There's no reasonable way to state otherwise," you say?

 

That's just not true. Not at all.

 

Here's a reasonable alternative. Kincaid's first year was an absolute success. However his second year was a disappointment. He took a step back for some reason.

 

That's every bit as reasonable.

 

He was 10th in the league among TEs as a rook in yardage. 7th in receptions. One of the best in completions/target. Better than promising.

I'll grant you that he had a nice rookie season.

But one needs to weigh the value of the draft pick used on a player against the total production of said player to gauge whether or not the pick has been a success. One can also factor in the production of players taken at the same position in the same draft after the player in question was taken.

Sam LaPorta and Tucker Kraft, both taken after Kincaid in the 2023 draft, just came off 700 yard 7 TD seasons, with Y/R of 12.1 and 14.1, respectively.

Kincaid is coming off a 448 yard, 2 TD season, with a Y/R of 10.2. 

We needn't even get into the fact that guys like Jayden Reed and Rashee Rice were also drafted after Kincaid, while WR continues to be a weak spot for the Bills.

Kincaid also generally plays no more than 50% of snaps in most games. It's great that the Bills have another talented tight end on the team in Dawson Knox, but is using a 1st round pick on a tight end that only gets 50% of the snap share really a good use of resources (particularly when you're already paying big bucks to the incumbent?)

Again, we can talk about injury, sophomore slump, whatever. The reality is the reality: Kincaid currently appears to be, at best, the third best tight end in his draft class. He currently is not a full time player. His coach and GM just called his second season a disappointment and publicly let it be known that they view him as undersized and under-strength. He just played about 20% of the snaps in a championship game and dropped a key pass that may have led to tie or victory.

As I said: I liked the pick. I have not given up hope on him. I don't think he's a "bust" or anything. But considering the draft capital used on him, the players taken after him (both at tight end and at other positions), the tight end we already had on the roster, and his production to date...I feel that "disappointment" is a perfectly fair label to use thus far. It's up to him to change that.



 

[Jrb1979]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

I'll grant you that he had a nice rookie season.

But one needs to weigh the value of the draft pick used on a player against the total production of said player to gauge whether or not the pick has been a success. One can also factor in the production of players taken at the same position in the same draft after the player in question was taken.

Sam LaPorta and Tucker Kraft, both taken after Kincaid in the 2023 draft, just came off 700 yard 7 TD seasons, with Y/R of 12.1 and 14.1, respectively.

Kincaid is coming off a 448 yard, 2 TD season, with a Y/R of 10.2. 

We needn't even get into the fact that guys like Jayden Reed and Rashee Rice were also drafted after Kincaid, while WR continues to be a weak spot for the Bills.

Kincaid also generally plays no more than 50% of snaps in most games. It's great that the Bills have another talented tight end on the team in Dawson Knox, but is using a 1st round pick on a tight end that only gets 50% of the snap share really a good use of resources (particularly when you're already paying big bucks to the incumbent?)

Again, we can talk about injury, sophomore slump, whatever. The reality is the reality: Kincaid currently appears to be, at best, the third best tight end in his draft class. He currently is not a full time player. His coach and GM just called his second season a disappointment and publicly let it be known that they view him as undersized and under-strength. He just played about 20% of the snaps in a championship game and dropped a key pass that may have led to tie or victory.

As I said: I liked the pick. I have not given up hope on him. I don't think he's a "bust" or anything. But considering the draft capital used on him, the players taken after him (both at tight end and at other positions), the tight end we already had on the roster, and his production to date...I feel that "disappointment" is a perfectly fair label to use thus far. It's up to him to change that.



 

I agree. IMO the reason many view Bills players better than they are is many fans don't watch other teams much at all. 

[nedboy7]

The ravens have more elite players than us. How did we beat them?