Who are the Bills elite players and do the Bills have enough elite players to win a Super Bowl?

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

You think he starts for more than half the league? That would be the real funny thing. 
 

 

 

lol

I mean, I think he starts for a lot of teams. You are acting like he’s a total bum. You said he wouldn’t start for “anybody” lol.

 

Hyde and Poyer also got AP nods while they were Bills. 
 

I guess the AP just got hoodwinked and they were also trash JAGs.

[Kirby Jackson]

14 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Come on, Kirby, it's way too early on Kincaid and Coleman. And Rousseau is a good player, significantly better than average.

 

We are in the same place we've been for years. Really really good. One of the top teams in the league, that hasn't been able to get past the Chiefs. And IMO you're listening to some fruitcakes if you are hearing that Shakir is elite. He's good and getting better.

 

Spencer Brown, especially at the end of the season, was playing at an extremely high level. Taron's damn good, among the best, though slot guys don't generally get ranked among the highest CBs.

 

That's an interesting look at things with Geno. I don't agree, myself. I'd guess it's more like 10 wins for the Geno Ravens probably a game or two game less with last year's Henry-less group, and 8 or 9 for the Geno Bills. Interesting way of looking at it, though, and you could be right.

Coleman was not good. No need to make excuses. Compare him to the next WR that went off the board. Kincaid has been a massive disappointment. If we want to say Rousseau is good, fine. Next year, do you want to be the team paying him $20M a year for this production? I sure don’t. That’s what someone is going to do. 
 

I love Taron. I said prior to last season that he may be the second best player on the team. He has been an elite slot corner (and still could be). This was a bad year. I think that the OTs are both borderline top 5 at their position. It is a strength for sure. 

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

If you notice Firechans lols at consistently odd times lol so I was just lol with him lol

 

I find myself getting banned far less when I add a targeted “lol” in my takes to keep it light. 

[colin]

39 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

This is delusional as the pro bowl. 

 

The ravens are less talented than Buffalo. At numerous spots.

 

The difference between Buffalo and kc is Chris Jones, bad luck with injury and coaching.... That's literally it. 

 

The ravens don't have a single front player as good as Rousseau, Oliver, Bernard or Milano. They don't even have the talent of Dorian Williams at linebacker. 

 

The bills oline completely manhandled the ravens. 

 

I understand ppl are frustrated, and we need this eras Bruce Smith for Allen. But let's actually live in reality 

 

Rousseau was one of the most dominant players at his position this year. He's not Chris Jones or Bruce Smith.... 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you are directionally correct in that we just need some real actual top end talent above what we have, but i have to disagree strongly on the raven's roster quality.

 

in terms of front 6 alone, r smith is a better player than anyone we have in our front 6 (maybe milano could compare in his best season, but he's missed the last two and is not as good as he was then, hope that changes).  van noy and that other end (owah?  don't remember how to spell his name) are at least for last season equal palyers at least to groot, and he's our best on DL.  oliver is a boom bust guy, so from that POV you could say van noy was slightly better last year, but maybe you'd rather have oliver now given age.  

 

DT is where there is just zero comparison.  our 3rd round rookie got hurt and keeps the bench warm as a healthy scratch, they are 3 or 4 deep with just monsters who got them the number 1 run d in the nfl.

 

they have a hole at cb 2, but we have a giant chasm if douglas or benford went down.  benford if he stays heathy might be a better corner than their cb1 next season, but we are without a cb2 after douglas walks (he's falling off himself).  their safeties are miles and miles better than ours.  they have the best in the nfl, we have what might be the worst set of safeties in the nfl, and they get hurt a lot.

 

on O, our OL is better but not by miles, lamar and josh are neck and neck in most eyes but i'd say josh is def better.  henry and their back up are better than ours, ours are good, henry is a hall of famer.  their TEs are head and shoulders above ours, they both block and catch (andrews made his *****, kinkaid made his) and at wr neither squad is great but flowers is better than anything we have by a margin and of course he was hurt.

 

baltimore has an actual monster roster, but we got luck and played a good game and allen is better than lamar.

 

if you get my wish list, add like higgins or metcalf (or whoever i just thought of those guys) at WR1, mayyybe small upgrade on interior OL or torrence just becomes the best he can, and add a real quality cb and double digit sack DE, then you have a real roster for buffalo that can compare (albeit not necessarily totally outshine) with the baltimore roster.

 

we need a slam dunk or two and a few hits to fill in holes to be there with them.  totally doable in a season but it would be our FO's greatest offseason since the one where they got allen.

[FireChans]

18 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Come on, Kirby, it's way too early on Kincaid and Coleman. And Rousseau is a good player, significantly better than average.

 

We are in the same place we've been for years. Really really good. One of the top teams in the league, that hasn't been able to get past the Chiefs. And IMO you're listening to some fruitcakes if you are hearing that Shakir is elite. He's good and getting better.

 

Spencer Brown, especially at the end of the season, was playing at an extremely high level. Taron's damn good, among the best, though slot guys don't generally get ranked among the highest CBs.

 

That's an interesting look at things with Geno. I don't agree, myself. I'd guess it's more like 10 wins for the Geno Ravens probably a game or two game less with last year's Henry-less group, and 8 or 9 for the Geno Bills. Interesting way of looking at it, though, and you could be right.

Kincaid is going to be 26 next season.

 

For reference, Josh was 26 in the 2022 season. 
 

It’s not a lost cause for Kincaid but it’s not “early.”

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Coleman was not good. No need to make excuses. Compare him to the next WR that went off the board. Kincaid has been a massive disappointment. If we want to say Rousseau is good, fine. Next year, do you want to be the team paying him $20M a year for this production? I sure don’t. That’s what someone is going to do. 
 

I love Taron. I said prior to last season that he may be the second best player on the team. He has been an elite slot corner (and still could be). This was a bad year. I think that the OTs are both borderline top 5 at their position. It is a strength for sure. 

I'm not a big Coleman fan (didn't love the pick either) but I saw very little effort from Brady to integrate his skillset. We had two or three games where Allen would throw him back shoulder passes and that was it. Never understood the plan at wideout outside Shakir.

 

Kincaid needs a better coach than Boras sorry not sorry. Knox never developed when he was supposedly coming into the league super green, Kincaid has gone backwards. He's got talent and tools.

[Kelly to Allen]

8 minutes ago, colin said:

 

I think you are directionally correct in that we just need some real actual top end talent above what we have, but i have to disagree strongly on the raven's roster quality.

 

in terms of front 6 alone, r smith is a better player than anyone we have in our front 6 (maybe milano could compare in his best season, but he's missed the last two and is not as good as he was then, hope that changes).  van noy and that other end (owah?  don't remember how to spell his name) are at least for last season equal palyers at least to groot, and he's our best on DL.  oliver is a boom bust guy, so from that POV you could say van noy was slightly better last year, but maybe you'd rather have oliver now given age.  

 

DT is where there is just zero comparison.  our 3rd round rookie got hurt and keeps the bench warm as a healthy scratch, they are 3 or 4 deep with just monsters who got them the number 1 run d in the nfl.

 

they have a hole at cb 2, but we have a giant chasm if douglas or benford went down.  benford if he stays heathy might be a better corner than their cb1 next season, but we are without a cb2 after douglas walks (he's falling off himself).  their safeties are miles and miles better than ours.  they have the best in the nfl, we have what might be the worst set of safeties in the nfl, and they get hurt a lot.

 

on O, our OL is better but not by miles, lamar and josh are neck and neck in most eyes but i'd say josh is def better.  henry and their back up are better than ours, ours are good, henry is a hall of famer.  their TEs are head and shoulders above ours, they both block and catch (andrews made his *****, kinkaid made his) and at wr neither squad is great but flowers is better than anything we have by a margin and of course he was hurt.

 

baltimore has an actual monster roster, but we got luck and played a good game and allen is better than lamar.

 

if you get my wish list, add like higgins or metcalf (or whoever i just thought of those guys) at WR1, mayyybe small upgrade on interior OL or torrence just becomes the best he can, and add a real quality cb and double digit sack DE, then you have a real roster for buffalo that can compare (albeit not necessarily totally outshine) with the baltimore roster.

 

we need a slam dunk or two and a few hits to fill in holes to be there with them.  totally doable in a season but it would be our FO's greatest offseason since the one where they got allen.

 

Roquan Smith is overrated. He's extremely stiff, can't cover and lives on taking on a fullback. All 3 Bills linebackers are more talented 

 

Owen and Van Noy are solid. Rousseau is a tier above. So is Oliver. 

 

I'm not sure what you want me to say. We have the better QB, better oline, better rb at this point in their careers. We've a better OC imo.

 

McDermott for all his issues is better than harbaugh.

 

I said before the ravens game I thought we would blow them out. We had a chance up 21-10, but we still won and controlled the entire game regardless...

 

I also said kc was the hardest test.

 

 

The ravens are overrated dude. That's kinda obvious now after beating them and watching the difference of Buffalo and Allen in the AFC championship vs Lamar and the ravens last year in the AFC championship....

 

They're not on the bills level 

Edited Saturday at 05:03 PM by Kelly to Allen

[Thurman#1]

46 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

And yet good teams still did whatever they wanted against our secondary and neither were considered anything more than average starters from the teams we got them from. With very little free agent interest for either one. I’m not saying I know the answer here, but I think people who just assume they were, as you say “ the best safety combo in the league” don’t really have any way to prove that and it gets confused in a system where Rapp and Hamlin can actually look serviceable. When zero chance exists they could start for anybody in football. 

 

 

Good teams absolutely did not do anything they wanted against our secondary in the Poyer and Hyde years, that's nonsense. Mahomes, obviously, did well enough to beat us consistently in the playoffs. But nobody else really stopped him either.

 

In 2022 we were 2nd in defensive passer rating, in 2021, way out in first holding opposing QBs to an average passer rating of 70.1, 7th in 2020, 4th in 2019, 3rd in 2018 and 5th in 2017. That's consistent excellence against the pass. 

 

As for specific games when good teams very much did not do anything they wanted against our secondary during those years, check out the passing success of:

 

KC 10/10/21  Mahomes 33/54-272-2-2

TB 2021  Brady 2243 269 0-0 passer rating 70.8 19 points scored (Tampa was the #2 offense that year)

 

Just the first two I looked at.

[Billsfanatic8989]

Guys like Kincaid & Coleman would hardly see the field on either SB team. Baltimore too. 

 

Hamlin wouldn’t start for said teams above. 

 

The Bills don't need a Jefferson or Chase level receiver. But they do need a Mike Evans level receiver. He can get open and make tight contested catches. 

[Logic]

Josh Allen.

That's it.

Dion Dawkins, James Cook, Taron Johnson, and Christian Benford are very good.

Spencer Brown, Khalil Shakir, Matt Milano, and Terrel Bernard are good.

Only Josh Allen is elite.

People over-apply "elite" status to players that are not elite.

There is a reason that Sean McDermott brought up the fact that a team needs to have 2-3 difference makers on each side of the ball in this league during his recent press conference. He's never, to my knowledge, brought that up before. He followed it up with "I won't get into whether we do or don't have those players", which are not the words that you would use if you felt that you DO have those players. So...coach McDermott knows. Those with eyes all know.

The Bills do not have enough elite players, have not surrounded Josh Allen with enough top end talent, and that needs to change FAST if the Bills want to win a Lombardi any time soon.

I am a Brandon Beane fan. You don't reside over the team with the most wins in the NFL since 2020 if you're not a good GM. However...I can't seem to shake the quote I recently read from an anonymous league executive recently: "Josh Allen covers up a lot of problems in that building".

Edited Saturday at 05:05 PM by Logic

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

Roquan Smith is overrated. He's extremely stiff, can't cover and lives on taking on a fullback. All 3 Bills linebackers are more talented 

 

Owen and Van Noy are solid. Rousseau is a tier above. So is Oliver. 

 

I'm not sure what you want me to say. We have the better QB, better oline, better rb at this point in their careers. We've a better OC imo.

 

McDermott for all his issues is better than harbaugh.

 

I said before the ravens game I thought we would blow them out. We had a chance to buy we still won and controlled the entire game 

 

I also said kc was the hardest test.

 

 

The ravens are overrated dude.

How many days are we removed from you saying Kincaid was the next Kelce?

 

Now Dorian is more talented than Roquan?

 

What is next 

[Kelly to Allen]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

How many days are we removed from you saying Kincaid was the next Kelce?

 

Now Dorian is more talented than Roquan?

 

What is next 

 

Kincaid has kelce traits. He got hurt....you left that part out, and I didn't know he was that banged up. Let's actually tell the whole story 

 

Kincaid numbers if he didn't get hurt are all time for a te in his first two years. 

 

He regressed this year and was bad in the playoffs. It also wouldn't shock me if he's all pro next year. 

 

Again I understand ppl are upset AFter a tough loss in the AFC championship. But we're being a prisoner of the moment and it's getting kinda ridiculous.

 

The bills need a couple elite pieces. That is what I'll agree with 

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

How many days are we removed from you saying Kincaid was the next Kelce?

 

Now Dorian is more talented than Roquan?

 

What is next 

 

Roquan Smith is overrated. 

6 minutes ago, Logic said:

Josh Allen.

That's it.

Dion Dawkins, James Cook, Taron Johnson, and Christian Benford are very good.

Spencer Brown, Khalil Shakir, Matt Milano, and Terrel Bernard are good.

Only Josh Allen is elite.

People over-apply "elite" status to players that are not elite.

There is a reason that Sean McDermott brought up the fact that a team needs to have 2-3 difference makers on each side of the ball in this league during his recent press conference. He's never, to my knowledge, brought that up before. He followed it up with "I won't get into whether we do or don't have those players", which are not the words that you would use if you felt that you DO have those players. So...coach McDermott knows. Those with eyes all know.

The Bills do not have enough elite players, have not surrounded Josh Allen with enough top end talent, and that needs to change FAST if the Bills want to win a Lombardi any time soon.

 

I agree with this. 

Edited Saturday at 05:10 PM by Kelly to Allen

[Thurman#1]

8 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Kincaid is going to be 26 next season.

 

For reference, Josh was 26 in the 2022 season. 
 

It’s not a lost cause for Kincaid but it’s not “early.”

 

 

That's flat-out ridiculous. Of course it's early. Very early. He was a rookie in 2023 and this year was his second year in the NFL, which is way early. 

 

Um, yes, 26. Second year in the NFL. That's how this is looked at. Spending two years at JUCO and three years at Utah isn't going to count as NFL experience. The idea's dumb.

 

Josh, when he was 26, was in his fifth NFL year. And he was very unspecial in his first two.

 

 

 

 

[Kelly to Allen]

Just now, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

That's flat-out ridiculous. Of course it's early. Very early. He was a rookie in 2023 and this year was his second year in the NFL, which is way early. 

 

Um, yes, 26. Second year in the NFL. That's how this is looked at. Spending two years at JUCO and three years at Utah isn't going to count as NFL experience. The idea's dumb.

 

Josh, when he was 26, was in his fifth NFL year. And he was very unspecial in his first two.

 

 

 

 

 

That and Kincaid already broke out as a rookie. 

 

Like I said it's getting silly now. 

 

 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

He regressed this year and was bad in the playoffs. It also wouldn't shock me if he's all pro next year. 

 

Again I understand ppl are upset AFter a tough loss in the AFC championship. But we're being a prisoner of the moment and it's getting kinda ridiculous.

 

🫨

 

It’s not really prisoner of the moment. I have been banging this drum for years. It’s Josh and the guys. Always has been.

 

guys like Greg and Ed and Kincaid and Knox and Shakir etc etc etc etc through the years are all good but have not been good enough. Obviously. Same as it was with them and their previous iterations in 2022. It’s nothing new. 

[Kelly to Allen]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

🫨

 

It’s not really prisoner of the moment. I have been banging this drum for years. It’s Josh and the guys. Always has been.

 

guys like Greg and Ed and Kincaid and Knox and Shakir etc etc etc etc through the years are all good but have not been good enough. Obviously. Same as it was with them and their previous iterations in 2022. It’s nothing new. 

 

Bro they lost the AFC championship by 3 on the road.... against the greatest dynasty ever possibly. 

 

I agree with you about getting a max Crosby and drafting a couple stud CBS. 

 

This team wasn't quite ready. This game reminded me a bit of the 88 AFC championship and a bit of the 89 loss to Cleveland. 

 

Just not quite there but extremely close with a young core

 

 

Edited Saturday at 05:15 PM by Kelly to Allen

[Logic]

3 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

Kincaid has kelce traits. He got hurt....

 

Kincaid numbers if he didn't get hurt are all time for a te in his first two years. 

 

He regressed this year and was bad in the playoffs. It also wouldn't shock me if he's all pro next year. 

 

Again I understand ppl are upset AFter a tough loss in the AFC championship. But we're being a prisoner of the moment and it's getting kinda ridiculous.

 

Kincaid has been a disappointment in his first two years. There's no reasonable way to state otherwise.

He had a promising rookie year, but not earth shattering. He was outplayed by a tight end chosen after him.

In his second year, he was hurt, ineffective, or both, all year long. Credit to him for playing through it, but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't produce.

He ended the year being often outsnapped and outplayed by Dawson Knox, seeing like 20% of the snaps in the AFC Championship game, dropping a pass that would've put the Bills in tying field goal range, and being called out by his coach and GM as "not having the year they expected" and needing to put on weight.

I liked the pick, too. I had high hopes, too. We can all play the "what would've been if he wasn't hurt?" game all we want, but it won't change the REALITY that the Kincaid pick, to this point, has been a flop, and that the tight end already on our roster and making big money has mostly outplayed him.

[Kelly to Allen]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

Kincaid has been a disappointment in his first two years. There's no reasonable way to state otherwise.

He had a promising rookie year, but not earth shattering. He was outplayed by a tight end chosen after him.

In his second year, he was hurt, ineffective, or both, all year long. Credit to him for playing through it, but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't produce.

He ended the year being often outsnapped and outplayed by Dawson Knox, seeing like 20% of the snaps in the AFC Championship game, dropping a pass that would've put the Bills in tying field goal range, and being called out by his coach and GM as "not having the year they expected" and needing to put on weight.

I liked the pick, too. I had high hopes, too. We can all play the "what would've been if he wasn't hurt?" game all we want, but it won't change the REALITY that the Kincaid pick, to this point, has been a flop, and that the tight end already on our roster and making big money has mostly outplayed him.

 

I generally agree with you. It was disappointing this year in the context of him getting hurt...

 

I also wouldn't trade him. 

Edited Saturday at 05:14 PM by Kelly to Allen

[wppete]

I like your list of elite players. I think Ocyrus Torrence will be on the Elite List after next season. He’s such a solid player and a physical monster. Seems to be very focused and smart player who plays with technique. 

[Allen2Moulds]

No, we need more.

Here are the 1st pick in each of the last 4 rounds.

Elam - Bust

Rosseau- average

Kincaid - average

Coleman- below average.

 

These are the guys that are suppose to make the difference in the biggest games, and are often no shows or invisible. That's why draft picks are overrated sometimes, if you have an opportunity to go after an impact player at a key position.