Who are the Bills elite players and do the Bills have enough elite players to win a Super Bowl?

[Kirby Jackson]

They don’t have enough elite talent and haven’t had enough elite talent. I’m sorry for those of you that have thought otherwise. The Bills roster 12-53 has been as good as anyone’s 12-53. Their top 12 players may not be in the top 25 in the league. We’ve tried to cling to “everybody eats” or “next man up” but we are in the same place that we have been for years. The Bills have an elite QB, strong depth and not enough elite talent/playmaking to get over the hump.
 

We’ve tried to convince ourselves that the Kincaids, Rousseaus, and Colemans of the world would be good players. Those guys are average, average and not good. We look at Shakir as elite. He’s good at what he does but he’s a high end role player. The same goes for Oliver. The OL is really good, Benford & Cook are becoming elite (top 5ish at their position) players. Other than that it is Josh and some solid players.
 

I always look at it like this, “if you took a league average QB (think Geno Smith) and replaced every teams starting QB with him what would the record be?” If you replaced Josh with Geno, I think that the Bills are like 6-11. If you replaced Lamar with Geno, I think that they’re 11-6. 

[JohnNord]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

And yet good teams still did whatever they wanted against our secondary and neither were considered anything more than average starters from the teams we got them from. With very little free agent interest for either one. I’m not saying I know the answer here, but I think people who just assume they were, as you say “ the best safety combo in the league” don’t really have any way to prove that and it gets confused in a system where Rapp and Hamlin can actually look serviceable. When zero chance exists they could start for anybody in football. 

I don’t know - I’m higher on Poyer/Hyde safety duo in their prime around 2020 and 2021. After that point both were hampered by injuries.  Also both were re-signed in Buffalo and never had the chance to hit the FA market until they were past their prime.  
 

Best safety duo?  Maybe a stretch but they were really good.   Hyde had a knack for finding the ball and Poyer flew all around the defense.  Also teams rarely ever threw deep on them.  
 

They likely were helped out a lot by McDermott’s system, but I also think they both excelled individually.  

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

15 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Your elite list would not be mine.

 

You have a good/very good list for the most part.

 

Allen, Brown, Dawkins and maybe Benford. That’s it.

 

James Cook is VERY good and imo still a step behind Henry, Barkley and a healthy CMC.

 

Shakir had 900 yards. Good slot with elite slot traits. Not elite.

 

Taron and Milano are living off their names a little bit. Milano shook off some rust towards the end, but I’m not sure he’s the same guy he was 2 years ago. Ditto with Taron. He got banged up but he’s had probably his worst year as our slot since like 2020.

I wonder whether if James Cook isn't just lack of usage away from being elite.

[Kelly to Allen]

11 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

They don’t have enough elite talent and haven’t had enough elite talent. I’m sorry for those of you that have thought otherwise. The Bills roster 12-53 has been as good as anyone’s 12-53. Their top 12 players may not be in the top 25 in the league. We’ve tried to cling to “everybody eats” or “next man up” but we are in the same place that we have been for years. The Bills have an elite QB, strong depth and not enough elite talent/playmaking to get over the hump.
 

We’ve tried to convince ourselves that the Kincaids, Rousseaus, and Colemans of the world would be good players. Those guys are average, average and not good. We look at Shakir as elite. He’s good at what he does but he’s a high end role player. The same goes for Oliver. The OL is really good, Benford & Cook are becoming elite (top 5ish at their position) players. Other than that it is Josh and some solid players.
 

I always look at it like this, “if you took a league average QB (think Geno Smith) and replaced every teams starting QB with him what would the record be?” If you replaced Josh with Geno, I think that the Bills are like 6-11. If you replaced Lamar with Geno, I think that they’re 11-6. 

 

This is delusional as the pro bowl. 

 

The ravens are less talented than Buffalo. At numerous spots.

 

The difference between Buffalo and kc is Chris Jones, bad luck with injury and coaching.... That's literally it. 

 

The ravens don't have a single front player as good as Rousseau, Oliver, Bernard or Milano. They don't even have the talent of Dorian Williams at linebacker. 

 

The bills oline completely manhandled the ravens. 

 

I understand ppl are frustrated, and we need this eras Bruce Smith for Allen. But let's actually live in reality 

 

Rousseau was one of the most dominant players at his position this year. He's not Chris Jones or Bruce Smith.... 

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 04:06 PM by Kelly to Allen

[FireChans]

12 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

And yet good teams still did whatever they wanted against our secondary and neither were considered anything more than average starters from the teams we got them from. With very little free agent interest for either one. I’m not saying I know the answer here, but I think people who just assume they were, as you say “ the best safety combo in the league” don’t really have any way to prove that and it gets confused in a system where Rapp and Hamlin can actually look serviceable. When zero chance exists they could start for anybody in football. 

Taylor Rapp started like the majority of his entire rookie deal in LA lol. Are you joking?

[Kelly to Allen]

We're starting to get real silly here. You would've thought Buffalo was Miami or something this year...

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

This is delusional as the pro bowl. 

 

The ravens are less talented than Buffalo. At numerous spots.

 

 

Sure, again, convince yourself of whatever helps you sleep. When the top 100 lists come out the Bills have Dawkins in the 90’s (if he makes the list) and Josh near the top 10. That’s what it has been. The Ravens have Henry, Hamilton, Humphrey, Stanley, Van Noy, Linderbaum, Flowers, the TEs, etc… You’re missing the point. The conversation is about TOP END talent. The best of the Ravens players are better compared to their peers than the best of the Bills players are compared to their peers. 

[JohnNord]

6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

They don’t have enough elite talent and haven’t had enough elite talent. I’m sorry for those of you that have thought otherwise. The Bills roster 12-53 has been as good as anyone’s 12-53. Their top 12 players may not be in the top 25 in the league. We’ve tried to cling to “everybody eats” or “next man up” but we are in the same place that we have been for years. The Bills have an elite QB, strong depth and not enough elite talent/playmaking to get over the hump.
 

We’ve tried to convince ourselves that the Kincaids, Rousseaus, and Colemans of the world would be good players. Those guys are average, average and not good. We look at Shakir as elite. He’s good at what he does but he’s a high end role player. The same goes for Oliver. The OL is really good, Benford & Cook are becoming elite (top 5ish at their position) players. Other than that it is Josh and some solid players.
 

I always look at it like this, “if you took a league average QB (think Geno Smith) and replaced every teams starting QB with him what would the record be?” If you replaced Josh with Geno, I think that the Bills are like 6-11. If you replaced Lamar with Geno, I think that they’re 11-6. 

I think you said it well, K-dog.  The high-end talent is missing from this roster.  You will never have a team with all elite players but you do need a couple.

 

I know Beane’s biggest critics point to the fact that he’s found a lot of “single” and very “home runs.”  I feel that’s valid criticism.  Aside from Josh, his best pick might be Taron Johnson.   I guess you can include the Diggs trade.  
 

The team’s other elite talent all came from the weird 2017 draft which saw them draft White, Milano, and Dawkins.  
 

The problem is it’s going to be really hard to add impact players on defense in their current situation.  

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

46 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

I wonder whether if James Cook isn't just lack of usage away from being elite.

I think that this is possible. He was really, really good this year. It’s a little chicken and egg to me. Would he be elite with more usage or would his efficiency drop making him worse with more usage? I don’t know the answer. He’s always been a part of a shared backfield. All that I know is that he is closer to “one of the 5 best at his position” than just about anyone other than Josh (and maybe the OTs).

Edited Saturday at 04:45 PM by Kirby Jackson

[Thurman#1]

44 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Well they would be idiots if they aren’t game planning for Cook at this point. And if we gave him the ball more, we probably win. 
 

But we have had the elite players (prime Diggs, White before the injuries, our safety combo) and that didn’t work either. I genuinely believe they are a game wrecker on defense and a legit threat in the passing game away. 

Agreed he is like the best version of Kelsey. He plays hard, is good against the run, will make an occasional sack, but has no special burst. The best version of him would be a great rotational DE. But he would be much better if they had a great DE across from him. Finding a great pass rusher would be like steroids to this D (🤗 viagra if you will).

 

 

Better than good against the run, he's excellent. But he's not an elite first step guy. 

 

He's a good pass rusher, but not a great one. And I agree he'd be a lot better with someone really gifted on the other side.

[FireChans]

15 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

I wonder whether if James Cook isn't just lack of usage away from being elite.

His biggest weakness is pass protection. It kept him off the field as a rookie and even though he’s improved, it still keeps him off the field.

[Kelly to Allen]

14 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Sure, again, convince yourself of whatever helps you sleep. When the top 100 lists come out the Bills have Dawkins in the 90’s (if he makes the list) and Josh near the top 10. That’s what it has been. The Ravens have Henry, Hamilton, Humphrey, Stanley, Van Noy, Linderbaum, Flowers, the TEs, etc… You’re missing the point. The conversation is about TOP END talent. The best of the Ravens players are better compared to their peers than the best of the Bills players are compared to their peers. 

 

I don't care about a popularity contest lol.

 

I care about what I see on the field. 

 

The ravens are overrated. And run an unorthodox offense to mask other deficiencies.

 

Almost every kc fan wanted to face the ravens....

 

Linderbaum is overrated. 

 

Again we are getting silly. The bills are right there.

 

Now most agree, they need a couple blue chip players, for the pass rush and at corner. I'll agree with you there. 

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 04:22 PM by Kelly to Allen

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think that this is possible. He was really, really good this year. It’s a little chicken and egg to me. Would he be rite with more usage or would his efficiency drop making him worse with more usage? I don’t know the answer. He’s always been a part of a shared backfield. All that I know is that he is closer to “one of the 5 best at his position” than just about anyone other than Josh (and maybe the OTs).

I was frustrated with his use and the lack of respect he was getting his first couple years from bills fans. But he stayed healthy and was awesome all year round so maybe more touches wears him out/ gets him hurt. 

[CincyBillsFan]

55 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Well they would be idiots if they aren’t game planning for Cook at this point. And if we gave him the ball more, we probably win. 
 

But we have had the elite players (prime Diggs, White before the injuries, our safety combo) and that didn’t work either. I genuinely believe they are a game wrecker on defense and a legit threat in the passing game away. 

Agreed he is like the best version of Kelsey. He plays hard, is good against the run, will make an occasional sack, but has no special burst. The best version of him would be a great rotational DE. But he would be much better if they had a great DE across from him. Finding a great pass rusher would be like steroids to this D (🤗 viagra if you will).

I disagree:

 

*  They may game plan against what the Bills do on offense with a shifty, fast RB like Cook but they do not game plan against Cook the player in the way they do against CMC, Barcley & Henry.

 

*  Prime Diggs was borderline elite in 2020 & 2021.  Not so much the last 3 seasons.

 

*  A "safety combo" by definition is NOT an elite player.  Sure Hyde/Poyner were a strength of the Bills D and opponents had to take the pair into consideration when gamer planning.  But, neither was the type of elite player that could routinely change the course of a game.

[C.Biscuit97]

28 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

They don’t have enough elite talent and haven’t had enough elite talent. I’m sorry for those of you that have thought otherwise. The Bills roster 12-53 has been as good as anyone’s 12-53. Their top 12 players may not be in the top 25 in the league. We’ve tried to cling to “everybody eats” or “next man up” but we are in the same place that we have been for years. The Bills have an elite QB, strong depth and not enough elite talent/playmaking to get over the hump.
 

We’ve tried to convince ourselves that the Kincaids, Rousseaus, and Colemans of the world would be good players. Those guys are average, average and not good. We look at Shakir as elite. He’s good at what he does but he’s a high end role player. The same goes for Oliver. The OL is really good, Benford & Cook are becoming elite (top 5ish at their position) players. Other than that it is Josh and some solid players.
 

I always look at it like this, “if you took a league average QB (think Geno Smith) and replaced every teams starting QB with him what would the record be?” If you replaced Josh with Geno, I think that the Bills are like 6-11. If you replaced Lamar with Geno, I think that they’re 11-6. 

Don’t agree with this at all.

 

1 - I think a lot of bills fans try to discredit how good Lamar is. He has a record of 70-24 and they are 4-9 without him. The Bills saw Matt Barkley have a record setting day as a starter (completely insane because he sucked, nice guy though). Should that take away from Josh? Of course not. Lamar would be as big of a loss to the Ravens as Josh would be the Bills. 
 

2 - you think Geno would be great throwing to the Ravens as he was DK, JSN, and Lockett?

 

3 - there wasn’t a person on the planet who thought Edwards was a better draft prospect than Kincaid. Lamar has helped Edwards become a star after being a 3rd rounder. Talent wise, I’m not sure why the DK thing has happened but he was a better prospect than ME.

 

is KC really a great roster? The have Mahomes, Jones, rapidly declining Kelce, and McDuffie. Their OTs are some of the worst in the league. Their RBs are meh. They have a receding code than even Geno Smith would struggle with! 
 

when your qb makes a ton of money, you need to hit home runs with late picks. And Beane has struggled to do that. That’s why I’m all for making a trade and going at it like the Rams. 

[Mikie2times]

28 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Taylor Rapp started like the majority of his entire rookie deal in LA lol. Are you joking?

You think he starts for more than half the league? That would be the real funny thing. 
 

 

 

lol

[Thurman#1]

21 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

They don’t have enough elite talent and haven’t had enough elite talent. I’m sorry for those of you that have thought otherwise. The Bills roster 12-53 has been as good as anyone’s 12-53. Their top 12 players may not be in the top 25 in the league. We’ve tried to cling to “everybody eats” or “next man up” but we are in the same place that we have been for years. The Bills have an elite QB, strong depth and not enough elite talent/playmaking to get over the hump.
 

We’ve tried to convince ourselves that the Kincaids, Rousseaus, and Colemans of the world would be good players. Those guys are average, average and not good. We look at Shakir as elite. He’s good at what he does but he’s a high end role player. The same goes for Oliver. The OL is really good, Benford & Cook are becoming elite (top 5ish at their position) players. Other than that it is Josh and some solid players.
 

I always look at it like this, “if you took a league average QB (think Geno Smith) and replaced every teams starting QB with him what would the record be?” If you replaced Josh with Geno, I think that the Bills are like 6-11. If you replaced Lamar with Geno, I think that they’re 11-6. 

 

 

Come on, Kirby, it's way too early on Kincaid and Coleman. And Rousseau is a good player, significantly better than average.

 

We are in the same place we've been for years. Really really good. One of the top teams in the league, that hasn't been able to get past the Chiefs. And IMO you're listening to some fruitcakes if you are hearing that Shakir is elite. He's good and getting better.

 

Spencer Brown, especially at the end of the season, was playing at an extremely high level. Taron's damn good, among the best, though slot guys don't generally get ranked among the highest CBs.

 

That's an interesting look at things with Geno. I don't agree, myself. I'd guess it's more like 10 wins for the Geno Ravens probably a game or two game less with last year's Henry-less group, and 8 or 9 for the Geno Bills. Interesting way of looking at it, though, and you could be right.

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I disagree:

 

*  They may game plan against what the Bills do on offense with a shifty, fast RB like Cook but they do not game plan against Cook the player in the way they do against CMC, Barcley & Henry.

 

*  Prime Diggs was borderline elite in 2020 & 2021.  Not so much the last 3 seasons.

 

*  A "safety combo" by definition is NOT an elite player.  Sure Hyde/Poyner were a strength of the Bills D and opponents had to take the pair into consideration when gamer planning.  But, neither was the type of elite player that could routinely change the course of a game.

Diggs had 1400 yards and 11 tds in 2022. 
 

Any defensive coach would tell you how important a great safety combo is. But prime Hyde was a top 5 S before injuries. 
 

cook was top 5 in all purpose yards last year, averaged 5 ypc for his career, and 1000 and 16 tds this year.  That’s borderline elite given the touches he is given. 

6 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

You think he starts for more than half the league? That would be the real funny thing. 
 

 

 

lol

Not sure why you are laughing at it. Dude was a stud in college (very high on my draft board 😂) and started for a SB champ. He has his flaws but he was a playmaker for us this year and we missed him. 

[Kirby Jackson]

23 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

I don't care about a popularity contest lol.

 

I care about what I see on the field. 

 

The ravens are overrated. And run an unorthodox offense to mask other deficiencies.

 

Almost every kc fan wanted to face the ravens....

 

Linderbaum is overrated. 

 

Again we are getting silly. The bills are right there.

 

Now most agree, they need a couple blue chip players, for the pass rush and at corner. I'll agree with you there. 

 

 

 

 

If you think that the TOP of the Bills roster and the TOP of the Ravens roster are comparable, we disagree (by a lot). The same goes for Philly and a bunch of other teams.

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Diggs had 1400 yards and 11 tds in 2022. 
 

Any defensive coach would tell you how important a great safety combo is. But prime Hyde was a top 5 S before injuries. 
 

cook was top 5 in all purpose yards last year, averaged 5 ypc for his career, and 1000 and 16 tds this year.  That’s borderline elite given the touches he is given. 

Not sure why you are laughing at it. Dude was a stud in college (very high on my draft board 😂) and started for a SB champ. He has his flaws but he was a playmaker for us this year and we missed him. 

If you notice Firechans lols at consistently odd times lol so I was just lol with him lol