Plane crash at Reagan Ntll. airport. Plane went into the Potomac.

[muppy]

Not only dozens of people killed but the controllers who could have prevented this will be in some very hot water. Imagine the guilt they must be feeling Lord have mercy. Or the pilot. whomever is found more at fault

 

I understand it is a pressure packed job. And machinery should have helped make this kind of event impossible.

 

I too am grateful for the very professional input being posted.

 

The victims are heavy on my heart.  Determining what failed is the issue.  Hopefully discover conclusively to  prevent it from  happening again

 

bottom line

 

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 05:47 AM by muppy

[Augie]

My wife is on her way back from NYC and texted me about this before boarding. Yes, I knew, but I was going to wait to mention it until you were home and I could hug you. 

 

 

She did remind me she was in an airport and that news was fairly impossible to miss. She had me there, but I wasn’t going to bring it up first. 

[Simon]

56 minutes ago, boyst said:

It's weird this is allowed and deemed not political. 

 

It's even weirder that you think the only active mod on a board with thousands of posters can be here every second of every day and see every post that is made.

[boyst]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

It's even weirder that you think the only active mod on a board with thousands of posters can be here every second of every day and see every post that is made.

🤔Fair 

 

But that was not a slight at the moderation. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

15 minutes ago, muppy said:

Not only dozens of people killed but the controllers who could have prevented this will be in some very hot water. Imagine the guilt they must be feeling Lord have mercy. Or the pilot. whomever is found more at fault

 

I understand it is a pressure packed job. And machinery should have helped make this kind of event impossible.

 

I too am grateful for the very professional input being posted.

 

The victims and what failed is the issue to hopefully discover conclusively to hopefully  prevent it from  happening again

 

bottom line

 

 

 

 

This one comes to mind... If you got 47 minutes:

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

So what I'm hearing now:

 

- ABC reported that the Blackhawk was at about 350 ft elevation

- CNN had a former Blackhawk pilot on (they finally found a useful "expert") who said he'd flown over the Potomac hundreds of times and that the standard is that the chopper goes to 200 ft at the Key Bridge (probably about a few miles due north of DCA) and stays there until they've cleared the area.

 

So it sounds like a Blackhawk pilot error, plain and simple.

Edited Friday at 12:48 AM by The Frankish Reich

[sherpa]

13 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

So what I'm hearing now:

 

- ABC reported that the Blackhawk was at about 350 ft elevation

- CNN had a former Blackhawk pilot on (they finally found a useful "expert") who said he'd flown over the Potomac hundreds of times and that the standard is that the chopper goes to 200 ft at the Key Bridge (probably about a few miles due north of DCA) and stays there until they've cleared the area.

 

So it sounds like a Blackhawk pilot error, plain and simple.

 

Not quite. 

There are built in redundancies, and ultimately, in that airspace, it is the controller's responsibility to see that and ensure separation.

That is all they are responsible for, in this case,  a very small amount of low altitude airspace.

 

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, sherpa said:

 

Not quite. 

There are built in redundancies, and ultimately, in that airspace, it is the controller's responsibility to see that and ensure separation.

That is all they are responsible for, in this case,  a very small amount of low altitude airspace.

 

Oh, I’ll agree with that. And I defer to your expertise here. 
But back in my bailiwick: if this went to court, and the US Army and the FAA were both defendants in a civil suit brought by one of the victims, I think a judge or jury would probably apportion at least 90% - or even 100% - of the blame to the Army. 
As far as avoiding this happening again? Yeah, we need to tighten it up on the FAA side too. No doubt about that. It’s just that the negligence - the failure to meet the established standard of care - appears to be overwhelmingly on the Blackhawk pilots at this time. 

[sherpa]

Just now, The Frankish Reich said:

Oh, I’ll agree with that. And I defer to your expertise here. 
But back in my bailiwick: if this went to court, and the US Army and the FAA were both defendants in a civil suit brought by one of the victims, I think a judge or jury would probably apportion at least 90% - or even 100% - of the blame to the Army. 
As far as avoiding this happening again? Yeah, we need to tighten it up on the FAA side too. No doubt about that. It’s just that the negligence - the failure to meet the established standard of care - appears to be overwhelmingly on the Blackhawk pilots at this time. 

 

Could be as you state.

But, being an ex military pilot, we operated with exclusions that were not applicable to civilian pilots. 

As an example, the speed limit is 250 knots below 10,000'. We had an exemption that allowed us to operate at 350 knots, because that was the speed we needed to relight the engine if it failed.

 

My suggestion is what I have stated for years in the airline industry, having exposure to both.

This nonsense of operating a helo taxi capability for pols is ridiculously foolish and expensive.

There is simply no justifiable reason for an Army helo squadron operating with night vision goggles around Reagan National.

None.

 

I have never flown with night vision goggles, but I have operated, extensively, with FLIR, which is forward looking infra-red, including weapons delivery, and it is really different, and has no use in this environment.

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

[The Frankish Reich]

2 hours ago, sherpa said:

This nonsense of operating a helo taxi capability for pols is ridiculously foolish and expensive.

Is that the bulk of military helicopter traffic around DCA, things like taking the Undersecretary of State to a meeting in Langley?

 

EDIT: from the NYT, explaining why they fly these training missions along the Potomac/DCA:

 

But “these are our top pilots,” Jonathan Koziol, chief of staff of the Army’s aviation directorate, told reporters. He said one pilot had 1,000 flying hours and the other had 500.

“12th Aviation has a special mission in the national capitol region,” he said. Part of it is “V.I.P. service” and part of it is to support the Pentagon “if something really bad happens in our area and they need to move our senior leaders.”

Edited Friday at 04:05 AM by The Frankish Reich

[TBBills Fan]

16 hours ago, njbuff said:

Imagine taking a nap on a flight and just waking up to the flight crew announcing the descend of the plane as it’s approaching the runway, and then…..

 

WHAM.

 

What a HORRIFIC way to go not knowing what the heck hit you

 

Terrible terrible story.

Yeah shows how quick it and randomly it can happen

 

Sad for those lost and their families who are now doubt a mess

[US Egg]

A report this month by the Army Combat Readiness Center found that in fiscal year 2024, the Army had the highest number of serious accidents, including fatalities, in a decade. Of the 15 incidents, only one involved a Black Hawk. The report noted that pilots might not be getting enough flight hours.

[Mike in Horseheads]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Is that the bulk of military helicopter traffic around DCA, things like taking the Undersecretary of State to a meeting in Langley?

 

EDIT: from the NYT, explaining why they fly these training missions along the Potomac/DCA:

 

But “these are our top pilots,” Jonathan Koziol, chief of staff of the Army’s aviation directorate, told reporters. He said one pilot had 1,000 flying hours and the other had 500.

“12th Aviation has a special mission in the national capitol region,” he said. Part of it is “V.I.P. service” and part of it is to support the Pentagon “if something really bad happens in our area and they need to move our senior leaders.”

Put the VIP's in a dam cab

[Just Jack]

On 1/30/2025 at 6:37 AM, njbuff said:

Imagine taking a nap on a flight and just waking up to the flight crew announcing the descend of the plane as it’s approaching the runway, and then…..

 

WHAM.

 

What a HORRIFIC way to go not knowing what the heck hit you

 

Terrible terrible story.

 

There's an article out there, of a husband that got a text from his wife on the plane, that they were 20 minutes from landing, and then nothing from his repeated texts back to her.  

[Back2Buff]

12 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

Not quite. 

There are built in redundancies, and ultimately, in that airspace, it is the controller's responsibility to see that and ensure separation.

That is all they are responsible for, in this case,  a very small amount of low altitude airspace.

 

 

Didn't the controller tell the Helicopter pilot to maintain the separation by going behind the plane?

[sherpa]

12 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

 

Didn't the controller tell the Helicopter pilot to maintain the separation by going behind the plane?

 

Yes he did, but it is not clear who the helo may have been looking at. He obvious never saw the Eagle flight.

I don't know the clearance parameters the helo was given, but it might have been wise to tell him to remain clear of the rwy 33 final approach path, no matter what his altitude restrictions were. 

I have heard that directive issued to many helos operating at very low altitudes.

[4th&long]

2 hours ago, Just Jack said:

 

There's an article out there, of a husband that got a text from his wife on the plane, that they were 20 minutes from landing, and then nothing from his repeated texts back to her.  

That was also on TV, they interviewed the guy. Tough to watch, hard to imagine the feeling in his gut when she's not responding and he heard the news a plane went into the river. Very sad. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Of course I won't jump to conclusions either...

 

Wasn't the helicopter going 150mph?  Maybe they should have slowed down?

 

Like going down the road towards a two track train crossing w/a visual of 1 train going trough... Seeing that train finish crossing, then blasting through crossing only to get labeled/plowing into by the other train coming in the other direction.

 

Should the tower have nagged them: "Hey hotshots, now cool your jets, look both ways, blah blah blah, you're NOT the only one's out here, blah, blah, blah..."

 

I mean, the radio transmissions are concise and professional, the plane in question was landing, how did they get that confused with a plane taking off, if that is what happened... 

 

Sounds like common sense, but when handed over visual IN THE DARK, maybe slow down?  But what do I know about helicopters.  Maybe they can't go under a 150mph while zipping along w/ zest...😏...

 

IF they really did visual the wrong aircraft, what could have changed this? More communication.  We listened to the communications above.  Weren't communications clear, concise, & professional enough without having to get into some long drama transmissions about a helo blasting through a crossing @ 150mph?

 

 

2 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

Yes he did, but it is not clear who the helo may have been looking at. He obvious never saw the Eagle flight.

I don't know the clearance parameters the helo was given, but it might have been wise to tell him to remain clear of the rwy 33 final approach path, no matter what his altitude restrictions were. 

I have heard that directive issued to many helos operating at very low altitudes.

How about slow down too?

Edited Friday at 03:42 PM by ExiledInIllinois

[Ned Flanders]

46 minutes ago, 4th&long said:

That was also on TV, they interviewed the guy. Tough to watch, hard to imagine the feeling in his gut when she's not responding and he heard the news a plane went into the river. Very sad. 

Yes, it was a Ch. 9, WUSA here in DC, reporter who then asked the poor guy to see the text.  Classless move on the part of the reporter looking for some type of "scoop."