Plane crash at Reagan Ntll. airport. Plane went into the Potomac.

[The Frankish Reich]

22 minutes ago, sherpa said:

But, one way or another, those two aircraft should not have met, and that is an ATC thing, unless there was a direct disregard from whoever was flying them

I get what you're saying, and thanks for clarifying the terminology. 

From what we've heard, should the Tower have done anything differently? We're hearing that maybe the helicopter responded that they had the CRJ in sight, but that they were talking about the CRJ (if that's what it was) taking off, rather than the one landing.

Is there some better terminology to use that could have avoided this?

What specifically would you have wanted to hear from the Tower?

[sherpa]

34 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I get what you're saying, and thanks for clarifying the terminology. 

From what we've heard, should the Tower have done anything differently? We're hearing that maybe the helicopter responded that they had the CRJ in sight, but that they were talking about the CRJ (if that's what it was) taking off, rather than the one landing.

Is there some better terminology to use that could have avoided this?

What specifically would you have wanted to hear from the Tower?

 

Good question.

What should have happened is that the tower controller should not have let the helo in the final approach airspace for runway 33.

That is a "circle to land" runway, which means that you start the approach to runway 1, and are sequenced in that traffic then do a quick dog leg to the right, and a left to align with the centerline of 33.

The helo was obviously in that airspace. That is OK as long as he is well below the flight path of a landing RJ.

When that happens, or there is other activity, the tower will clear you land with a caution; ie., "caution low level helo traffic," or "caution low level wind shear reports," or anything you need to know.

Either way, the two aircraft should have never been in that airspace at the same time, and I guarantee that the RJ was flying a standard profile to land. 

To answer you question directly, what I would have wanted to hear is, "go around, helo traffic on final," or land on rwy 1, but I'm guessing they had somebody in the way for takeoff or inadequate separation for landing, so the main runway was not an option.  

 

Either way, unless there was a direct violation by the helo guy, this is a tower screw up.

[The Frankish Reich]

11 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Either way, unless there was a direct violation by the helo guy, this is a tower screw up.

So a helicopter pilot screw up, and a tower screw up too?

[boater]

Here is a good video analysis from a pilot, of what we know so far:

 

Did the helo do a right when he should have done a left?

[sherpa]

10 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

So a helicopter pilot screw up, and a tower screw up too?

 

Not necessarily.

The helo guy could have been flying in a corridor and altitude profile that was standard, but if landing on 33, that corridor should have been shut down.

No matter what, unless there was intentional disregard, that is the tower's airspace, and should have been controlled to the point of deconfliction

3 minutes ago, boater said:

Here is a good video analysis from a pilot, of what we know so far:

 

Did the helo do a right when he should have done a left?

 

This guy is a youtube geek who is a civilian pilot background and who specializes in being very fast with this stuff.

I watched this for 15 seconds, until he made his first mistake.

Edited Thursday at 06:38 PM by sherpa

[The Frankish Reich]

5 minutes ago, sherpa said:

The helo guy could have been flying in a corridor and altitude profile that was standard, but if landing on 33, that corridor should have been shut down

So when the helo guy said he had a visual track on the CRJ, is that typically sufficient? I mean, it obviously (in retrospect) was not, but was it standard practice to defer to what the helo pilot confirms?

[sherpa]

8 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

So when the helo guy said he had a visual track on the CRJ, is that typically sufficient? I mean, it obviously (in retrospect) was not, but was it standard practice to defer to what the helo pilot confirms?

 

Ya.

If they point out traffic and ask if you have it in site and you say yes, there is no way to determine if they mean the same traffic.

The point is that the helo was responsible to see and avoid, and the tower controller was responsible for allowing monitoring both in the same airspace, and relying on the helo to avoid.

 

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, sherpa said:

 

Ya.

If they point out traffic and ask if you have it in site and you say yes, there is no way to determine if they mean the same traffic.

The point is that the helo was responsible to see and avoid, and the tower controller was responsible for allowing monitoring both in the same airspace, and relying on the helo to avoid.

 

Got it. Thanks again. Better background information than I'm getting anywhere else.

[sherpa]

7 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Got it. Thanks again. Better background information than I'm getting anywhere else.

 

Good.

I cannot believe the media/youtube/political vector nonsense about this.

I have been in and out or Reagan hundreds of times, initially as a narrow body captain, then as a commuter to NY, Miami and Chicago, to fly bigger airplanes, mostly in the jumpseats while hitching a ride on many carriers, and I am extremely familiar with the way it operates. It is disgusting to me how those "outlets" can put this crap out.

Purely commercial and horrible.

Edited Thursday at 07:08 PM by sherpa

[Mike in Horseheads]

At 3om presser no recovery of black boxes yet.

[Ned Flanders]

We've tragically lost three students here in Fairfax County, along with their six parents.  We know some of the family members.  May God have mercy on their souls.

 

Hello Team FCPS,

 

We are devastated by the tragic news as we learn members of our FCPS community have lost their lives in the accident last night at Reagan National Airport.  

 

Many are reaching out to share their sorrow and emotions at this difficult time.  We are hearing from students, staff members, and others in the community who are expressing their care and concern for those who have lost loved ones. I invite you to join me in keeping all those affected by this deep community loss in our prayers. 

 

We have more details that we can now share. Many on the flight were returning from a figure skating event in Wichita, Kansas. What we know at this time is that three of our FCPS students and six of our FCPS parents were lost, affecting multiple schools and departments here at FCPS. Two of the parents were current or former FCPS staff members.  Multiplying the grief are the siblings, spouses, relatives, friends and colleagues who have lost loved ones. 

 

We must remain sensitive to the privacy needs and concerns for those who are directly involved. Therefore, we are not releasing specific information such as names out of care for those who are directly involved at this time.

 

We know many in our FCPS community are now learning this tragic news and understanding the enormity of our loss. We have resources available to support students, staff, and families. I want to specifically recognize our principals, teachers, counselors, and other crisis teams who are responding to the needs of our students, families and staff during this most difficult time.   We also continue to be thankful for our first responders and community partners. 

 

If you are feeling anxious, frustrated or overwhelmed, and need support, please consider reaching out to the FCPS Employee Assistance Program (EAP).

 

We will continue to keep you updated as we are able. I speak for all of us at FCPS as we offer our condolences to everyone involved in this heartbreaking tragedy. 

 

It is a time to hold one another closer…

[sherpa]

17 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

At 3om presser no recovery of black boxes yet.

 

Not going to be anything in that.

They got rammed.

[Mike in Horseheads]

1 minute ago, sherpa said:

 

Not going to be anything in that.

They got rammed.

you know that and I know that but apparently some don't

 

[Mike in Horseheads]

8 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Not going to be anything in that.

They got rammed.

You seem well versed on flying thanks for you info today.  I was wondering why the TCAS system didn't alert them but just had a expert say that it is shut off that low and that close to a landing because of all the traffic around

[RiotAct]

Horrible.  Deadliest commercial aviation accident on U.S. soil since December of 2001.

[sherpa]

6 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

You seem well versed on flying thanks for you info today.  I was wondering why the TCAS system didn't alert them but just had a expert say that it is shut off that low and that close to a landing because of all the traffic around

 

Great question.

TCAS runs by an algorithm that discounts/eliminates various modes at various altitudes near ground.

During flight, it provides a traffic advisory, which is informational, and if the situation isn't resolved, and is bad, a resolution advisory, which actually tells you what to do, and displays the suggested command on the vertical speed indicator.

Ten mins or so are spent on this issue and response in every simulator training period.

 

While you don't turn the transponder on takeoff until just prior, there would still be so many that it would alert to that it cancels them out. 

[Just Jack]

https://www.boredpanda.com/internet-sleuths-claim-to-found-post-with-washington-dc-plane-crash-victims

 

[sherpa]

6 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

 

We are all just speculating...

Yeah... And the Bills didn't lose because of the Refs.

 

Not to cause a fork in the road, but you brought it up.

Simple question.

Are you in any way aware of who was running PATCO at that time, and what they we were offered and demanded?

That is beyond the issue of breaking the law.

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

6 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

I deleted it since we're all taking the high road here... I suggest you do the same. 

[sherpa]

Just now, ExiledInIllinois said:

I deleted it since we're all taking the high road here... I suggest you do the same. 

 

I have no reason to delete anything.