Plane crash at Reagan Ntll. airport. Plane went into the Potomac.

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 minute ago, Ned Flanders said:

Yes, it was a Ch. 9, WUSA here in DC, reporter who then asked the poor guy to see the text.  Classless move on the part of the reporter looking for some type of "scoop."

Yeah... Wow...

 

"I make my living off the evening news
Just give me something
Something I can use
People love it when you lose
They love dirty laundry..."

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

Lotta eagle egos flyin' (and on ground too) around, I am amazed they can all keep it so sterile and "professional."  Now they want the tower to nag them to stay clear because they might not be processing the transmissions properly?  Yeah, that's really on the mind of the ATC? For real? It's an active corridor that crosses runways into, out of the airport.

 

I know it's Newsweek... FWIW:

 

https://www.newsweek.com/dc-plane-crash-tcas-warning-black-hawk-helicopter-2023717

 

Interesting...

 

"...Retired American Airlines pilot Doug Rice told NBC News that TCAS is not fully effective below 700 feet—the estimated altitude of the collision. As planes approach landing, TCAS alerts can be suppressed to reduce unnecessary distractions, meaning the system may not have provided a timely warning that the Black Hawk was approaching.

However, Bubb noted that some witnesses reported seeing the airplane in a steep bank turn before the helicopter struck it, followed by a trail of sparks.

"That tells me the helicopter was on the TCAS of the passenger plane, and the pilot tried to avoid it, but it was too late," Bubb told Newsweek.

While it is too early to assign blame, Bubb emphasized that the nature of the crash is highly unusual. Preliminary details suggest human error may have played a significant role.  ..."

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

 

[muppy]

Just now, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

 

I can't watch. 

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, muppy said:

I can't watch. 

 

I got one minute in. That was more than enough. 

[RkFast]

Wing was sheared off and the RJ hit the water in less than 2 seconds. The bright side is that the victims probably died before they even realized what was happening to them.  I have one friend a pilot and one who works ATC in NYC and both are very shaken by this crash. 

Edited Friday at 07:17 PM by RkFast

[ExiledInIllinois]

Times article, seems pretty on:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/31/business/dc-plane-helicopter-crash-cause.html

[RkFast]

Its enraging me, all the conspiracy theories floating around and many being floated from "smart" people, who should know better. 

 

"It looks like the helicopter aimed for the RJ!"

 

Yeah, no kidding. Things that collide with one another tend to look like that. 

[muppy]

32 minutes ago, RkFast said:

Its enraging me, all the conspiracy theories floating around and many being floated from "smart" people, who should know better. 

 

"It looks like the helicopter aimed for the RJ!"

 

Yeah, no kidding. Things that collide with one another tend to look like that. 

I am staying off national social media regarding this event. I'm getting better info here than there anyway. I think it is a tragedy no matter whose fault.

 

But Please media (for those that partake  of its sake)  do NOT make this issue more tragic than it already is. We don't need stupid takes like that. It is insulting to our intelligence and the victims. 

Edited Friday at 10:12 PM by muppy

[Roundybout]

33 minutes ago, RkFast said:

Its enraging me, all the conspiracy theories floating around and many being floated from "smart" people, who should know better. 

 

"It looks like the helicopter aimed for the RJ!"

 

Yeah, no kidding. Things that collide with one another tend to look like that. 

 

I have no idea what the conspiracy even is, like what could possibly come out of taking out some random regional flight from Kansas?

 

Conspiracies are for feeble-minded people who want to feel like they have secret, special information. 

Edited Friday at 10:13 PM by Roundybout

[Augie]

12 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

 

I have no idea what the conspiracy even is, like what could possibly come out of taking out some random regional flight from Kansas?

 

Conspiracies are for feeble-minded people who want to feel like they have secret, special information. 

 

It’s hardly a great deal for the chopper pilot.  🤷‍♂️

 

This ain’t Madden. 

 

 

.

Edited Friday at 10:25 PM by Augie

[boyst]

Plane caught fire and crashed into a mall in Phili. 

Lear jet. Crashes at 2 avg per year. 

Edited Saturday at 12:25 AM by boyst

[Just Jack]

11 hours ago, boyst said:

Plane caught fire and crashed into a mall in Phili. 

Lear jet. Crashes at 2 avg per year. 

 

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/medical-jet-plane-crash-northeast-philadelphia-learjet/4095858
 

The Philadelphia crash was the second fatal incident in 15 months for Jet Rescue. In 2023, five crewmembers were killed when their plane overran a runway in the central Mexican state of Morelos and crashed into a hillside.

 

[Beck Water]

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-CRASH/WASHINGTONDC-AIRCRAFT/dwvkkwyzxvm/

Shows "Route 4" (the Class B clearance the helicopter received), the path of the helicopter, and the path of the airplane.  The altitude clearance for Route 4 is "at or below 200 ft" in that area. 

Guardian article:

Quote

Questions are also being asked about the altitude of the helicopter. It was cleared to fly at 200ft but appears to have ascended to 400ft, and into the path of the airliner.

 

On the helicopter track indicated on the map, it appears the copter deviated from Rt 4 towards the approach end of the runway.  Caveat: it has been asserted that the helicopter was not broadcasting ADSB, which might contribute to the apparent "jagged" flight path and would certainly hinder both the controller and the pilot's ability to detect the confliction.  I do not know the reliability of this assertion.

 

----------
This article details previous "near misses" from NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting Database, which is an anonymous reporting system maintained with the goal of improving safety:  https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/30/us/dca-plane-helicopter-crash-invs/index.html

Chances are good that for every report, there are more incidents that were not reported.

It's pretty clear that close encounters between military helicopters and civilian traffic landing at DCA are common enough that they have been "normalized" to ATC.  The controllers rely upon the helicopter following the route they've been cleared to fly (below 200 ft, along the W bank of the Potomac) and following visual separation rules (paraphrase: "Do you see that plane?" "Traffic in sight" "Stay out of its way" "Roger")

But basically, a helicopter flying its cleared route precisely has the potential to come within hundreds of feet of a landing passenger jet flying its cleared approach precisely.  And especially at night, there is always the potential that the traffic the pilot confirms seeing is not the traffic the controller is pointing out.

This blogger calls it IMHO:
"We’ve basically seen the normalization of planes and helicopters flying hundreds of feet apart with visual separation, and sooner or later, that’s not going to end well, as it leaves virtually no margin."

He points out:

"It’s not like air traffic controllers can start restricting military helicopters and keeping them out of their airspace, without intervention on a higher level."

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 05:41 PM by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

On 1/31/2025 at 10:07 AM, ExiledInIllinois said:

 

 

Lotta eagle egos flyin' (and on ground too) around, I am amazed they can all keep it so sterile and "professional."  Now they want the tower to nag them to stay clear because they might not be processing the transmissions properly?  Yeah, that's really on the mind of the ATC? For real? It's an active corridor that crosses runways into, out of the airport.

 

I know it's Newsweek... FWIW:

 

https://www.newsweek.com/dc-plane-crash-tcas-warning-black-hawk-helicopter-2023717

 

Interesting...

 

"...Retired American Airlines pilot Doug Rice told NBC News that TCAS is not fully effective below 700 feet—the estimated altitude of the collision. As planes approach landing, TCAS alerts can be suppressed to reduce unnecessary distractions, meaning the system may not have provided a timely warning that the Black Hawk was approaching.

However, Bubb noted that some witnesses reported seeing the airplane in a steep bank turn before the helicopter struck it, followed by a trail of sparks.

"That tells me the helicopter was on the TCAS of the passenger plane, and the pilot tried to avoid it, but it was too late," Bubb told Newsweek.

While it is too early to assign blame, Bubb emphasized that the nature of the crash is highly unusual. Preliminary details suggest human error may have played a significant role.  ..."

 

FWIW, an aircraft on final approach to land at 400 ft AGL or less would normally not execute a steep bank as an avoidance procedure, for a number of reasons

 

The normal procedure would be to gain altitude ASAP.  This is called a "go around" and should always be an option to a landing pilot for whatever reason - cow on the runway etc.   Pilot tells the tower "(Call sign) is going around", puts in the throttles to gain altitude, follows subsequent ATC instructions as to heading and altitude, when the plane is stabilized tell them the reason that choice was made "be advised there appears to be a large cow on the approach end of runway one two"

A glance at the runway diagram of DCA would show that a plane turning away from the helicopter would be turning into the flight path for Rwy 1.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 05:42 PM by Beck Water

[SinceThe70s]

 

Props to the pilot. I imagine it wasn't an easy flight for him either.

 

https://nypost.com/2025/02/01/us-news/american-airlines-pilot-comforts-passengers-on-flight-less-than-24-hours-after-dc-plane-crash-in-viral-video/

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

18 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

FWIW, an aircraft on final approach to land at 400 ft AGL or less would normally not execute a steep bank as an avoidance procedure, for a number of reasons

 

The normal procedure would be to gain altitude ASAP.  This is called a "go around" and should always be an option to a landing pilot for whatever reason - cow on the runway etc.   Pilot tells the tower "(Call sign) is going around", puts in the throttles to gain altitude, follows subsequent ATC instructions as to heading and altitude, when the plane is stabilized tell them the reason that choice was made "be advised there appears to be a large cow on the approach end of runway one two"

A glance at the runway diagram of DCA would show that a plane turning away from the helicopter would be turning into the flight path for Rwy 1.

 

 

Then what was that professional pilot talking about in the article?

[Not at the table Karlos]

How in the world does the helicopter pilot not see the plane. It seems intentional.  The more videos come out the worse it looks for the helicopter pilot. 

[Figster]

This may have been brought up already.

 

One of the 1st things that jumped out at Captain Sully was the technique in aviation called visual separation that was used. This rather common technique passes responsibility of an aircraft flight path from the control tower over to the pilot, in this case flying the Blackhawk. 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/captain-sully-offers-his-take-on-american-airlines-5342-helicopter-collision/ar-AA1y8rsG?ocid=xboxntp&pc=U531&cvid=0623b03926f4455b862b7787c2a71dec&ei=8

 

At 1st glance this technique clearly needs the control tower to continue monitoring all air traffic including the Blackhawk and make precautionary course changes when needed IMO. In this case none was given to the airliner or Blackhawk.

 

https://www.today.com/video/captain-sully-sullenberger-weighs-in-on-dc-plane-crash-230690373713

Edited Saturday at 08:30 PM by Figster

[Figster]

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

This blogger calls it IMHO:
"We’ve basically seen the normalization of planes and helicopters flying hundreds of feet apart with visual separation, and sooner or later, that’s not going to end well, as it leaves virtually no margin."

He points out:

"It’s not like air traffic controllers can start restricting military helicopters and keeping them out of their airspace, without intervention on a higher level."

 

 

 

This is a big part of the problem in my humble opinion. Military and civilian aviation flying together under different rules/ chain of command.

Edited Saturday at 08:28 PM by Figster