Wide Receiver Train Full Speed Ahead- CHOO CHOO!

[Pete]

22 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well then maybe tell Josh (who said this himself) not to misread the defense on 4th and 5 and shift the protection away from the Blitz when Spags did the opposite of what was expected...then tell Kincaid to not drop the hero ball Allen still manages to get away that would have been caught in FG range. 

 

 

Because that was the only time Allen got the crap beaten out of him? Allen has been taking way too many hits this seasion because WRs cannot separate.  He almost always needs to extend a play because there is no separation.  I dont want to see Allen end up like Eric Lindros.  We need vertical WR, so opposing teams dont blitz as much, so they dont get burned.  And we need separation right off release, so Allen does not pummelled

[Alphadawg7]

17 hours ago, NoSaint said:

I think the fastest way to swing the games we are losing is to score 7 more instead of stopping an extra drive at this point. 
 

I don’t care if we score a million offensive points in the regular season if KC scores 5 more than us every January. 
 

let’s break their defense at this point 

at this point I trust Josh to be damn near perfect if given the tools

 

he just turned in a season with the lowest rate of mistakes in the history(?) of the nfl. 
 

imagine if we empowered him fully.

 

16th highest scoring offense in history...that was the Bills this year.  We had the most wins in history by 20+ points.  Allen set multiple individual records.  

 

Now...there are only so many drives in a game that we get...for your theory to work would mean we are not scoring at a high rate.  But we do score at a high rate, more than anyone the past 5 seasons.  

 

You guys don't understand how much harder it is to increase our score by 7 points per game.  That would literally ties us for the #1 offense in the history of the NFL with the 2013 Broncos...who got destroyed in the SB scoring only 8 points against a defensvie and run first team.  Just like the former #1 offense Patriots got shut down in their SB to a mediocre wild card Giants team with a wicked DL.  

 

Just because we go all in on some huge WR doesn't not by any means we score "more" points.  And let me tell you, its a LOT easier to add a difference maker to our defense who can just affect one more play/drive and get KC (or whoever) off the field one more time instead of allowing a scoring drive than it is to add a player to your offense that transforms your offense into the greatest offense in history.  

 

So its not the solution people think it is, nor is it as feasible as people think it is.

Edited January 30 by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

12 minutes ago, Pete said:

Because that was the only time Allen got the crap beaten out of him? Allen has been taking way too many hits this seasion because WRs cannot separate.  He almost always needs to extend a play because there is no separation.  I dont want to see Allen end up like Eric Lindros.  We need vertical WR, so opposing teams dont blitz as much, so they dont get burned.  And we need separation right off release, so Allen does not pummelled

 

Not sure why I even have to tell you this...Allen was taking WAY more hits in the years past than he did this year...and its not close.  He had the lowest % of plays with a sack, INT, or fumble in NFL history.  He went 4 games without even getting sacked at one point.  

Edited January 30 by Alphadawg7

[NoSaint]

9 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

16th highest scoring offense in history...that was the Bills this year.  We had the most wins in history by 20+ points.  Allen set multiple individual records.  

 

Now...there are only so many drives in a game that we get...for your theory to work would mean we are not scoring at a high rate.  But we do score at a high rate, more than anyone the past 5 seasons.  

 

You guys don't understand how much harder it is to increase our score by 7 points per game.  That would literally ties us for the #1 offense in the history of the NFL with the 2013 Broncos...who got destroyed in the SB scoring only 8 points against a defensvie and run first team.  Just like the former #1 offense Patriots got shut down in their SB to a mediocre wild card Giants team with a wicked DL.  

 

Just because we go all in on some huge WR doesn't not by any means we score "more" points.  And let me tell you, its a LOT easier to add a difference maker to our defense who can just affect one more play/drive and get KC (or whoever) off the field one more time instead of allowing a scoring drive than it is to add a player to your offense that transforms your offense into the greatest offense in history.  

 

So its not the solution people think it is, nor is it as feasible as people think it is.

sir, I’m not even really trying to score that many more points. 
 

im fine breaking even in the regular season scoring if having another good weapon saves Josh from a month of putting the team on his back when shakir rolls and ankle and we have Keon/hollins on the perimeter. 
 

imagine a world where Josh is healthier, and we haven’t dug near as deep in the bag of tricks and can actually kick it up another gear in January 

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

sir, I’m not even really trying to score that many more points. 
 

im fine breaking even in the regular season scoring if having another good weapon saves Josh from a month of putting the team on his back when shakir rolls and ankle and we have Keon/hollins on the perimeter. 
 

imagine a world where Josh is healthier, and we haven’t dug near as deep in the bag of tricks and can actually kick it up another gear in January 

 

Josh broke both of his hands this year running the football.  That's how he gets injured. Every year he's got an injured hand or elbow or something from running the football.

 

Its time to start transitioning Wonder Boy into a pocket passer.  He can throw well enough for that.  keep him healthy.  He's not getting any younger.  We have been fortunate that he has never had an injury costing him to miss games since 2018 but it could certainly happen.

 

And, I believe our offense could score MORE points with a better defense. One that can actually get stops and get the ball back to the offense. And when we did have the ball we wouldn't have to have long drives to keep our defense off the field. I believe that was our whole offensive strategy in the playoffs.  Keep the defense off the field.  We could be a lot more aggressive down field without having to worry about giving ball back to the other team so as to keep our defense off the field.

 

I was in Buffalo on bidness  one time and listened to Steve Tasker on the radio.  He was talking about Hot Rod running the football.  He said it can be effective but what happens is the QB while getting tackled will jam his thumb or twist his ankle so he gets bunged up. That's what we're seeing now with Wonder Boy.  Knock it off.

 

That's my prescription.  Improve the D so they can actually get stops.  Have Josh run A LOT less and shelve the Brotherly Shnow Plow Push so Josh doesn't break any more hands.

Edited January 31 by reddogblitz

[Doc Brown]

On 1/29/2025 at 8:36 AM, Pete said:

WR train was full speed ahead last year.  Bills Mafia was banging pots and pans demanding WRs.  We got Keon Coleman.  WR is a bigger need than last year.  Give Josh WRs who can separate, and we beat KC the last two playoff meetups.,

Sal is talking about WR train right now

Offense looked fine to me on Sunday.  Fix the defense first.  You can't rely on a bend don't break defense predicated on splash plays/forcing turnovers to beat good teams in the playoffs.  We need serious upgrades on that side of the ball.   

 

 

 

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Offense looked fine to me on Sunday.  Fix the defense first.  You can't rely on a bend don't break defense predicated on splash plays/forcing turnovers to beat good teams in the playoffs.  We need serious upgrades on that side of the ball.   

 

 

 

That is a Josh Allen stat, (very impressive), and has little to do with WR IMO.  Josh Allen is not the problem   Now if you show me as chart that shows WR Separation and WR EPA, that would be quite different.  I know what my eyes see.  I know when Josh cannot get rid of the ball in 5 seconds.  The fact is that the Bills are lacking a vertical threat, and they lack WR's who can separate.  A vertical threat is not just about splash plays.  Just the threat of vertical threat, the opposing D must respect, and cant stack the box.  A separator saves wear and tear of Josh, because he doesn't need to extend plays. 

 

Beane echoed my concerns for Coleman.  He was not the same player after the Poyer hit.  And Im not sure Coleman will ever be an adequate X or Z WR.

 

I know the D needs serious upgrades.  We need 1 Tech and CB starters minimal.  We need to improve the pass rush, and more secondary.  Im down for all of that.  Im asking the Bills either through FA or a high draft pick- add at least 1 WR(2 if we lose Hollins or Cooper)  who can separate and win vertically.  We have 10 draft picks, 6th round and higher.  If we draft/sign 1 or 2 WR, we still have 8 picks for D.

Edited January 31 by Pete

[OldTimer1960]

On 1/29/2025 at 8:40 AM, uticaclub said:

We spent back to back 1st round picks on Kincaid & Coleman, while both look like busts, attention needs to be made to other parts of the team, like every position on defense.

Yes, resources need to be applied to D and we still need WR help.  I think too soon to call either Kincaid or Coleman busts, but I agree that early returns haven’t been as desired.  

[Pete]

Marino and Beane both said we need a WR who can win vertically!

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I think they are going big fish hunting again at WR. 

 

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I think they are going big fish hunting again at WR. 

 

iMO two FA the Bills are going to try and sign during the tampering period-WR  Chris Godwin and Carlton Davis III.  Davis would start across from Bedford.  Godwin is vertical threat and great blocker.  Beane likes to fill needs before the draft, so these 2 would fill major needs, and give us more flexibility during draft

Coleman 21 targets and 7 catches Coleman BUST ALERT

[Pete]

Riser: WR Jack Bech, TCU

May as well call him “Big Play Bech.”

Jack Bech exploded this season at TCU with explosive plays down the field and brought the same to the Senior Bowl practices, where he logged at least one big play down the field in each of the three days of practice. Bech has strong hands and is an uber-physical player, including in the run game, where he helps carve out added running room on the second level. 

Great character.  Bills DNA.  Definitely on Beanes radar IMO

Edited January 31 by Pete

[BuffaloBillyG]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

Marino and Beane both said we need a WR who can win vertically!

What was the quote from Beane a few years back about the speed Tyreek Hill has? That as much as he loves that kind of speed those players don't just grow on trees and "if you know where to find someone with speed like that let me know". 

 

Then last draft he's sitting there staring the fastest player in the history of the draft in the face with his pick up...and moves it content with Coleman and his cement shoe 40. 

 

[gjv]

On 1/29/2025 at 8:39 AM, Gugny said:

What if Josh threw catchable passes to the receivers we have now during the most meaningful drives of the season?

Like the one he threw to Kincade with a Chief in his face on the last offensive play of the season for the Bills.

[colin]

20 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

16th highest scoring offense in history...that was the Bills this year.  We had the most wins in history by 20+ points.  Allen set multiple individual records.  

 

Now...there are only so many drives in a game that we get...for your theory to work would mean we are not scoring at a high rate.  But we do score at a high rate, more than anyone the past 5 seasons.  

 

You guys don't understand how much harder it is to increase our score by 7 points per game.  That would literally ties us for the #1 offense in the history of the NFL with the 2013 Broncos...who got destroyed in the SB scoring only 8 points against a defensvie and run first team.  Just like the former #1 offense Patriots got shut down in their SB to a mediocre wild card Giants team with a wicked DL.  

 

Just because we go all in on some huge WR doesn't not by any means we score "more" points.  And let me tell you, its a LOT easier to add a difference maker to our defense who can just affect one more play/drive and get KC (or whoever) off the field one more time instead of allowing a scoring drive than it is to add a player to your offense that transforms your offense into the greatest offense in history.  

 

So its not the solution people think it is, nor is it as feasible as people think it is.

 

I disagree.  our coaching staff has dumped resources into the D and had good regular season stats with worse regular season records (in years when the O was really good too, just not as good/consistent as it is now) and still sucked balls in the playoffs.  multiple times.

 

our path to a chip based on where we are now and with who our coaches are is to get a top flight vertical weapon WR on O, maybe improve interior pass pro (just one guy, can be a draft pick or a value signing), get one real guy on D (pass rush or CB, im leaning CB) and then just draft bodies on the D, BPA on that side of the ball.  

 

bishop elam douglas hamlin and johson was a horrible skill/speed/size mix for nearly half of the defensive players vs kc, and an off injury milano and banged up bernard were not very effective either.  our back 7 as a unit was a disaster vs baltimore and KC.  trying to turn them into the 85 bears is a fool's errand, our coaching has shown they cannot produce a big game D, but can produce a big game O.  aim for average on D, at a good price, and have this o take the small step it needs to literally be the best ever.

[Gugny]

11 minutes ago, gjv said:

Like the one he threw to Kincade with a Chief in his face on the last offensive play of the season for the Bills.

Yes. That’s exactly what I meant.  Because it’s really smart to judge an entire game based on one play. 

[gjv]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

Yes. That’s exactly what I meant.  Because it’s really smart to judge an entire game based on one play. 

You don't think the pass to Kincade was a catchable ball?

[Alphadawg7]

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

sir, I’m not even really trying to score that many more points. 
 

 

All good, it was just you said 7 more points in your previous post

 

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

im fine breaking even in the regular season scoring if having another good weapon saves Josh from a month of putting the team on his back when shakir rolls and ankle and we have Keon/hollins on the perimeter. 
 

 

Again, nobody has once said not to address WR.  And this above reads like you want to go all in on WR in case someone else gets hurt when WR injuries had zero to do with our playoff loss this year, or any year for that matter.  Although Defensive issues sure have been a part of our playoff losses.

 

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

imagine a world where Josh is healthier, and we haven’t dug near as deep in the bag of tricks and can actually kick it up another gear in January 

 

But that was literally our entire season this year...a season where he had the least % of plays in history with a sack or turnover, a season where he wasn't even sacked for 4 straight games, a season where we were the 16th best offense in the history of the NFL.  

 

And again, no one is saying don't add a WR, literally no one.  Its clear as day that WR along with DL, S, and CB are our 4 biggest needs/priorities entering the offseason.  I have even personally stated WR is definitely a need and a priority.  The debate is on those people who want to over spend on one WR and then just patch work our defense again.  That has already not worked for teams like the Dolphins, Bengals, etc. 

 

We already score more points than Vikings with Jefferson/Addison...Miami with Hill/Waddle...Eagles with Brown/DeVonta and Barkley...Bengals with Burrow, Chase, and Higgins.  We score more points than anyone has for the past 5 seasons.  But who is in the SB going for their record 3rd straight SB Win?  A team with a mediocre offense that didn't score 30 even one time...UNTIL...they played the Bills in the AFCCG.  Who was the last dynasty before the Chiefs?  Pats who won their 6 SB's with average receiving weapons at WR for Brady or worse but they always had guys that fit their system and a run game and a defense to support the greatness of what Brady did on the field.  

 

NOTE:  Mahomes and Chiefs best offensive season - Didn't reach the SB (2018 they had 3rd best offense in history).  The last time Mahomes was in the SB with an elite WR (Hill) they got blown out by the Bucs when their defense shut down the Chiefs.  Brady's best offensive season - Lost in the SB to Eli Manning when the Giants D shut down the then highest scoring offense in history.  Interesting enough, Brady's other SB loss was when he threw for over 500 yards in the Super Bowl and still lost to Nick Foles.  Yet Brady's first SB win...they beat the "Greatest show on Turf" shutting down the vaulted Rams offense and throwing to scrubs at WR.  Brady's last SB win in NE...they only scored 13 points and still won by TWO scores when they shut down the again vaulted Rams offense with McVay and held them to 3 points.  

 

So when in history does going all in on WR's and neglecting defense translate into a SB win?  How many times has that ever worked?  Now go look at see how many times a defense made a big impact on a teams SB victory...when a defense countered an elite offense.  Even look back at all the SB winner the past 20 years...not many even had an elite WR.  

 

Again...when you score over 31 a game (and that is after we took the final week off essentially too), expecting to score more isn't easily accomplished.  But when your defense is in the bottom of the league on 3rd down...bottom of the league on number of first downs allowed...and so on...adding a difference maker can impact that in a big way and make a more significant impact, especially when just a single stop on 3rd/4th down on one of the Chiefs scoring drives literally changes the losses to a win in our last 3 postseason losses to them.

 

 

Edited January 31 by Alphadawg7

[Gugny]

6 minutes ago, gjv said:

You don't think the pass to Kincade was a catchable ball?

Sure it was. 
 

My point (which I’m figuring you knew) is that judging a player’s overall game performance on the last meaningful play of the game is generally unwise. 
 

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

All good, it was just you said 7 more points in your previous post

 

 

Again, nobody has once said not to address WR.  And this above reads like you want to go all in on WR in case someone else gets hurt when WR injuries had zero to do with our playoff loss this year, or any year for that matter.  Although Defensive issues sure have been a part of our playoff losses.

 

 

But that was literally our entire season this year...a season where he had the least % of plays in history with a sack or turnover, a season where he wasn't even sacked for 4 straight games, a season where we were the 16th best offense in the history of the NFL.  

 

And again, no one is saying don't add a WR, literally no one.  Its clear as day that WR along with DL, S, and CB are our 4 biggest needs/priorities entering the offseason.  I have even personally stated WR is definitely a need and a priority.  The debate is on those people who want to over spend on one WR and then just patch work our defense again.  That has already not worked for teams like the Dolphins, Bengals, etc. 

 

We already score more points than Vikings with Jefferson/Addison...Miami with Hill/Waddle...Eagles with Brown/DeVonta and Barkley...Bengals with Burrow, Chase, and Higgins.  We score more points than anyone has for the past 5 seasons.  But who is in the SB going for their record 3rd straight SB Win?  A team with a mediocre offense that didn't score 30 even one time...UNTIL...they played the Bills in the AFCCG.  Who was the last dynasty before the Chiefs?  Pats who won their 6 SB's with average receiving weapons at WR for Brady or worse but they always had guys that fit their system and a run game and a defense to support the greatness of what Brady did on the field.  

 

NOTE:  Mahomes and Chiefs best offensive season - Didn't reach the SB (2018 they had 3rd best offense in history).  The last time Mahomes was in the SB with an elite WR (Hill) they got blown out by the Bucs when their defense shut down the Chiefs.  Brady's best offensive season - Lost in the SB to Eli Manning when the Giants D shut down the then highest scoring offense in history.  Interesting enough, Brady's other SB loss was when he threw for over 500 yards in the Super Bowl and still lost to Nick Foles.  Yet Brady's first SB win...they beat the "Greatest show on Turf" shutting down the vaulted Rams offense and throwing to scrubs at WR.  Brady's last SB win in NE...they only scored 13 points and still won by TWO scores when they shut down the again vaulted Rams offense with McVay and held them to 3 points.  

 

So when in history does going all in on WR's and neglecting defense translate into a SB win?  How many times has that ever worked?  Now go look at see how many times a defense made a big impact on a teams SB victory...when a defense countered an elite offense.  Even look back at all the SB winner the past 20 years...not many even had an elite WR.  

 

Again...when you score over 31 a game (and that is after we took the final week off essentially too), expecting to score more isn't easily accomplished.  But when your defense is in the bottom of the league on 3rd down...bottom of the league on number of first downs allowed...and so on...adding a difference maker can impact that in a big way and make a more significant impact, especially when just a single stop on 3rd/4th down on one of the Chiefs scoring drives literally changes the losses to a win in our last 3 postseason losses to them.

 

 

 

Dumped resources into our D?  Why do people keep saying this?  We used 3 of our last 5 first round picks on weapons for Josh.  We have used 4 of our last 6 picks in the first 2 rounds of the draft on offense.  We had a draft a couple years ago where the entire draft but one pick was offense.  We already spent our 3rd this year on a WR in Cooper.  

 

 

what I’m playing to is that he had 102 rush attempts on top of hits making miraculous throws on top of those limited sacks. 
 

the broken hand this year, the shoulder injuries… 

 

and yes, I do think the state of the WR room contributed to that- including the Samuel injury, coopers wrist, Keon etc… 

 

if we could run him 50% of that, and save a few super man throws - that’s maybe 60 fewer hits. 3.5 fewer times every week he’s peeling himself off the turf. 
 

but you need to surround him with more talent to keep the results while putting a limiter on his explosive contributions 

 

and then come January suddenly you have a healthier guy, more talent around him AND can put his cape on and get those extra 7 points 

 

we ask him to do too much and we’ve created margins of error that are too thin to get to the results the offense needs/expects. Maybe Keon/cooper/keon/samuel end up being that core next year.