CincyBillsFan Posted January 29 Posted January 29 6 hours ago, oldmanfan said: You cannot compare stats between eras because of the rule changes. In Kemp’s era defensive backs had a lot more freedom. The average one on one coverage back then would draw a flag for unnecessary roughness today. I wish people who are not old enough to have watched the AFL would quit dismissing their teams and players. No Kemp may not have been the physical specimen Allen is, and no I am not saying Kemp was better by any means. But Kemp was an excellent QB. He had a very strong arm, could run, and was an excellent leader. I am old enough and while I was a kid in the mid 60's so my memory is a bit hazy I vividly remember when the AFL reached parity with the NFL at the top and that wasn't until 1968. The Bills had a great AFL team in those days but it was inferior to the best NFL teams. My comp would be in soccer the MLS compared to the British Premier league. Winning an MLS title is a big deal and the top MLS players are very good but they are not close to being as good as the Premier league. And as others have said, IMO Lamonca was the better QB on the Bills at that time which he showed in later years at Oakland. 1 Quote
oldmanfan Posted January 29 Posted January 29 6 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: I am old enough and while I was a kid in the mid 60's so my memory is a bit hazy I vividly remember when the AFL reached parity with the NFL at the top and that wasn't until 1968. The Bills had a great AFL team in those days but it was inferior to the best NFL teams. My comp would be in soccer the MLS compared to the British Premier league. Winning an MLS title is a big deal and the top MLS players are very good but they are not close to being as good as the Premier league. And as others have said, IMO Lamonca was the better QB on the Bills at that time which he showed in later years at Oakland. You cannot say they were inferior until 1966 when the Super Bowl started. I think our 65 team would have had trouble with the Packers, but I'd have put up the 64 team against the Browns anytime. 1 Quote
CincyBillsFan Posted January 29 Posted January 29 4 hours ago, oldmanfan said: You cannot say they were inferior until 1966 when the Super Bowl started. I think our 65 team would have had trouble with the Packers, but I'd have put up the 64 team against the Browns anytime. There's no reason for me to think that those Bills AFL championship teams could have beat the NFL champion Packers or Browns. The fact is that in the 1st SB season, which was the Bills 3rd straight AFL championship appearance, the Chiefs who beat the Bills 31 - 7 IN BUFFALO lost to the Packers 35 - 10. Now I know football game results are not necessarily transitive but that result makes it hard to believe those Bills teams were on the same level as the NFL champs. 1 Quote
Thrivefourfive Posted January 29 Posted January 29 I think he was 1 for 27 passing for -183 yds and nine interceptions in those games. very VERY hard pass, please Could it be that the Bills won DESPITE Kemp’s anemic play?! Quote
oldmanfan Posted January 29 Posted January 29 7 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: There's no reason for me to think that those Bills AFL championship teams could have beat the NFL champion Packers or Browns. The fact is that in the 1st SB season, which was the Bills 3rd straight AFL championship appearance, the Chiefs who beat the Bills 31 - 7 IN BUFFALO lost to the Packers 35 - 10. Now I know football game results are not necessarily transitive but that result makes it hard to believe those Bills teams were on the same level as the NFL champs. The 64 team had a great defense and great balanced offense. We could have given the Browns a real fight. 1 Quote
The Frankish Reich Posted January 29 Posted January 29 I was all ready to give my 11-point analysis of why Joe Ferguson actually sucked, but the OP tricked me with the Jack Kemp thing Given that the OP was @John Gianelli I may need to pull out my Bob McAdoo actually sucked notes. Quote
mannc Posted January 29 Posted January 29 Mine is Cardale Jones…he knew how to motivate a team to win the National Championship. 1 Quote
jethro_tull Posted January 30 Posted January 30 Watching that AFL documentary Jack was a good looking clean cut SOB Quote
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30 Posted January 30 23 hours ago, John Gianelli said: It's Jack Kemp. The frustration of the four Super Bowl losses and our inability to get back to the Super Bowl under Josh Allen have convinced me that the real sign of greatness is motivating your team to win the biggest game. Kemp led the Bills to two league championships in 1964 and 1965. He wasn't as gifted an athlete as Allen, and didn't rack up the stats like Kelly. But he knew how to motivate his team to win when it counted most. I watched the '65 game when I was 8 years old. I wish every Bills fan could know what it feels like to win it all. Wrong. Quote
John Gianelli Posted Friday at 03:13 PM Author Posted Friday at 03:13 PM On 1/29/2025 at 6:08 PM, Thrivefourfive said: I think he was 1 for 27 passing for -183 yds and nine interceptions in those games. very VERY hard pass, please Could it be that the Bills won DESPITE Kemp’s anemic play?! Two rings. Need I say more? On 1/29/2025 at 8:28 PM, Alphadawg7 said: Wrong. Two rings. On 1/29/2025 at 6:24 PM, mannc said: Mine is Cardale Jones…he knew how to motivate a team to win the National Championship. Kemp had two rings. On 1/29/2025 at 6:08 PM, Thrivefourfive said: I think he was 1 for 27 passing for -183 yds and nine interceptions in those games. very VERY hard pass, please Could it be that the Bills won DESPITE Kemp’s anemic play?! I doubt any of his teammates would have said that. On 1/29/2025 at 12:26 PM, Mr. WEO said: lol he was playing plumbers and longshoreman. Who built the foundation for what we're watching today. And, he brought Buffalo two championships. 1 Quote
John Gianelli Posted Saturday at 02:05 PM Author Posted Saturday at 02:05 PM On 1/28/2025 at 9:16 PM, Sojourner said: How many points could Jack put on our defense? I think he'd hand off to Cookie Gilchrist, and it would look like a combination of Derrick Henry and Saquon Barkley. 1 1 Quote
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted Saturday at 05:51 PM Posted Saturday at 05:51 PM On 1/29/2025 at 11:48 AM, Gregg said: The rest including Flutie and Bledsoe aren't worth mentioning. My notes say they put up a statue in Bledsoe's honour. 🤨 * Wait, sorry. Looking at my notes, they actually say Bledsoe played like a statue. 🙁 1 Quote
reddogblitz Posted Sunday at 08:18 AM Posted Sunday at 08:18 AM On 1/29/2025 at 8:02 AM, JP51 said: I am not disparaging this post.... but I can only imagine what Josh Allen would have done to defenses back in the Mid 60s... when the average DL probably was Josh Allens size lol... and the average WR and RB probably ran about as fast as Josh does... I can imagine a lot of broken fingers on WR and DBs lol.... I was watching Super Bowl XII highlights today. 15 years after what we're talking about. Almost every Doomsday Defense sack or near sack would be roughing the passer today. Josh would be sacked and landed on even after he threw the ball. Defenses were playing bump 'n run and holding past 5 yards was OK. Warren Wells was playing. All of this would play havoc on his accuracy and completion percentages. When he ran with the ball they'd take his head off which is why Roger Staubach invented the slide after it happened to him a few times. And, Josh wouldn't have all the nutritional and training methods players have today. And he'd probably be eating doughnuts and smoking cigarettes at 1/2 time. It was a different game back then. 1 1 Quote
Beast Posted Sunday at 08:30 AM Posted Sunday at 08:30 AM (edited) The AFC Championship was harder to win than the AFL Championship was. AFC Championship: 14 teams competing for it. AFL Championship: 8 teams competing for it. In fact, about twice as difficult. Winning a Super Bowl these days in a 32 team league is 4 times more difficult than an AFL Championship. Edited Sunday at 08:32 AM by Beast Quote
AlCowlingsTaxiService Posted Sunday at 12:47 PM Posted Sunday at 12:47 PM He couldn’t hold Joe Dufek’s jockstrap … Quote
Spiderweb Posted Sunday at 01:27 PM Posted Sunday at 01:27 PM On 1/31/2025 at 10:13 AM, John Gianelli said: Two rings. Need I say more? Two rings. Kemp had two rings. I doubt any of his teammates would have said that. Who built the foundation for what we're watching today. And, he brought Buffalo two championships. Drugs are a terrible thing...... Quote
oldmanfan Posted Sunday at 01:38 PM Posted Sunday at 01:38 PM I suspect many of those commenting here were not alive during the AFL days. Why denigrate those teams and their players if you have no actual knowledge of them? Can you directly compare Kemp to Allen? Of course not. The rules were completely different, training was completely different, and so on. I watched Kemp. He was very good. Had a great arm, was really tough, an excellent leader. People criticize his completion percentage but that’s how it was in an age where receivers could get mugged every time they ran a pattern. Some here also say there’s no way the championship Bills could have beat an NFL team. But again I was there to watch. The Bills defense in ‘64 and ‘65 was outstanding. Guys like Sestak, McDole, Stratton, Saimes were as good -really better- than guys in the NFL. And they completely shut down the Chargers and Sid Gilman’s offense two championship games in a row. We might have not fared well in ‘65 against the Packers, but would have had a real shot beating the Browns in ‘64. Those were great days for those of us who lived them. 1 Quote
BobbyC81 Posted Sunday at 01:46 PM Posted Sunday at 01:46 PM On 1/28/2025 at 6:58 PM, CincyBillsFan said: No. Kemp is an all time legacy Bills player. But the AFL in 1964 & 1965 was the minor leagues compared to the NFL. When the AFL started getting better and approaching the NFL in quality Kemp and the Bills fell off the face of the planet. The Chiefs beat the Bils 31 - 7 in the 1966 season champiosnhip game (in Buffalo) before being squashed by the Packers 35 - 10 in the 1st Super Bowl. Allen's 5 straight division titles is a far greater accomplishment then Kemp's back to back AFL championships. And let's not even talk about Kelly's 4 straight Super Bowl appearances. Those early year AFL championships were pinky rings. That’s right, KC also prevented the Bills from playing in the first Super Bowl! #€£¥#$&!!!!!!! 1 Quote
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