Kurt Warner breaks down the 4th down. Allen error?

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, Billz4ever said:

 

Sorry, but the QB going for the first ever 3 peat in NFL history is more like Josh Allen than Tom Brady.

 

When a play breaks down, he moves around, gets out of the pocket and will take off if that's the best option.  

 

Hate to tell you, but literally all the QBs that played in the two conference championship games are more like Josh Allen than Tom Brady and the QB who will win the Super Bowl this year, whether it's Mahomes or Hurts, is more like Allen than Brady.

Mahomes is more like Steve Young. He plays tight within a system and improvises when he has no choice but when he isn't forced to improvise the ball is out immediately. Josh is closest to Favre, modern day, Lamar would probably be the closest one.  Hurts is a system QB, he rarely ever tries to even consider attempting the things Josh does. The only commonality is they both scramble. He might win one and I think Josh will as well. Having an ability to run isn't what makes Allen who he is. It's his ability to lean on his ungodly skills to do things nobody else can and lots of times it works (as it should have yesterday). But all of that doesn't change that fact that a 3-4 step and fire QB, as rare as they're modern day, is still more lethal and most likely to win late in the playoffs. It's because how they play is more repeatable and systematic.    

[MikePJ76]

37 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Eli Manning has two Super Bowl rings cause he played hero ball with David Tyree and Mario Manningham. 

he has two rings and is going to the hall of fame because Steve Spagnuolo had 4 fantastic pass rushers and they beat.

 

Jeff Garcia, Tony Romo, Brett Favre on the road and then Tom Brady

 

Then in 2011 Perry Fewell found a way to do the same thing with a little less on defense but he got similar results in beating

Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, Alex Smith and Tom Brady.

 

Manning was great against GB in both games but make no mistake he is going to the Hall of Fame because of those pass rushers.

[VW82]

Warner is right. Josh needs to recognize O'Cyrus giving up the ridiculous blow by and immediately look across his body to his check down. Instead, he follows the play deisgn and as he's about to be blown up somehow finds Kincaid 25 yards downfield in what should have been the play of the year. 

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Mahomes is more like Steve Young. He plays tight within a system and improvises when he has no choice but when he isn't forced to improvise the ball is out immediately. Josh is closest to Favre, modern day, Lamar would probably be the closest one.  Hurts is a system QB, he rarely ever tries to even consider attempting the things Josh does. The only commonality is they both scramble. He might win one and I think Josh will as well. Having an ability to run isn't what makes Allen who he is. It's his ability to lean on his ungodly skills to do things nobody else can and lots of times it works (as it should have yesterday). But all of that doesn't change that fact that a 3-4 step and fire QB, as rare as they're modern day, is still more lethal and most likely to win late in the playoffs. It's because how they play is more repeatable and systematic.    

Mahomes isn't a 3 to 4 step and fire QB.  Neither are any of the QBs in the Championship games. The QB likely to win his 3rd MVP this year is more like Allen than Brady.

 

The QB position is evolving and that's a plain and simple fact. 

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Mahomes isn't a 3 to 4 step and fire QB.  Neither are any of the QBs in the Championship games. The QB likely to win his 3rd MVP this year is more like Allen than Brady.

 

The QB position is evolving and that's a plain and simple fact. 

Sure it's changing, but what I said never will 

[Billz4ever]

Just now, Mikie2times said:

Sure it's changing, but what I said never will 

It already has.  If what you said was still the best, than the QBs in the final 4 wouldn't be there and the likely MVP wouldn't be the MVP.

 

 

[78thealltimegreat]

50 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Allen is prone to making decisions that make him have to make heroic plays. Brett Favre did the same thing. If you think that's the best path to a ring I don't know what to tell you. 

I don't blame him. He's the best QB in the NFL. But that doesn't mean how he plays is the most conducive to winning a Super Bowl. He's a sandlot guy. A reason exists why Favre got 3x MVP's to rings. What he did was incredible, but biggest moments favor precision not superman.  

See Eli Manning he has two 

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

It already has.  If what you said was still the best, than the QBs in the final 4 wouldn't be there and the likely MVP wouldn't be the MVP.

 

 

You're making Allen's number one differentiator just somebody who can scramble. Yes, the NFL has more mobile QB's. That is not what makes Allen who he is. He is one of the most gifted players to ever play. Which allows him to play sandlot QB creating almost 50% of his damage outside of the play design. He has no comp who has ever won a Super Bowl beside Brett Favre. Historically, maybe young Elway, Favre, young Vick, Cam Newton, maybe Lamar nowadays but not really. Elway got his rings after he was done doing his old Elways things. These guys didn't operate in the play. They created and it's what made them great, but it was also much more prone to breaking down and being inconsistent. If you want to categorize Mahomes that way so be it. I disagree with that view but I see why you would put him there. I don't think that's what makes him who he is. Reid is too skilled a play caller for him to live off schedule. He does it when he has to.  If you want to label Hurts or Daniels that way, I REALLY disagree with that view. Lamar would be the closest current NFL QB and you can include him but it wouldn't help your case. Lot's of MVP's for these guys as they're amazing and incredible to watch, but a lot less rings compared to personal hardware. Ideally you want the style of play where somebody says "that looks easy". Easy is repeatable and repeatable holds up under pressure. 

[Billz4ever]

9 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

You're making Allen's number one differentiator just somebody who can scramble. Yes, the NFL has more mobile QB's. That is not what makes Allen who he is. He is one of the most gifted players to ever play. Which allows him to play sandlot QB creating almost 50% of his damage outside of the play design. He has no comp who has ever won a Super Bowl beside Brett Favre. Historically, maybe young Elway, Favre, young Vick, Cam Newton, maybe Lamar nowadays but not really. Elway got his rings after he was done doing his old Elways things. These guys didn't operate in the play. They created and it's what made them great, but it was also much more prone to breaking down and being inconsistent. If you want to categorize Mahomes that way so be it. I disagree with that view but I see why you would put him there. I don't think that's what makes him who he is. Reid is too skilled a play caller for him to live off schedule. He does it when he has to.  If you want to label Hurts or Daniels that way, I REALLY disagree with that view. Lamar would be the closest current NFL QB and you can include him but it wouldn't help your case. Lot's of MVP's for these guys as they're amazing and incredible to watch, but a lot less rings compared to personal hardware. Ideally you want the style of play where somebody says "that looks easy". Easy is repeatable and repeatable holds up under pressure. 

What Josh does within the confines of this offense is repeatable and he does it often.  When a play breaks down, he creates, which is what the other 3 QBs in the final 4 do, and is the why QB position is evolving. In the game of football, not everything always goes as planned and when that happens, you need a QB who can create or else you only have a robot for a QB who can't improvise when a play doesn't go as it was drawn up.

[BuffaloButt]

Kincaid was open but Josh got hit trying to make the throw. Almost worked for a big play!

[Man with No Name]

9 hours ago, VW82 said:

Warner is right. Josh needs to recognize O'Cyrus giving up the ridiculous blow by and immediately look across his body to his check down. Instead, he follows the play deisgn and as he's about to be blown up somehow finds Kincaid 25 yards downfield in what should have been the play of the year. 

kurt warner has no idea what its like to play inside the body of Josh allen. Josh allen wouldn't be josh allen if he played the way Kurt warner played. Was Josh Allen the least sacked qb in the nfl this year? I think he's just confident in his own way of playing the game. And it could have worked out. SHould have? maybe

[Punch]

9 hours ago, VW82 said:

Warner is right. Josh needs to recognize O'Cyrus giving up the ridiculous blow by and immediately look across his body to his check down. Instead, he follows the play deisgn and as he's about to be blown up somehow finds Kincaid 25 yards downfield in what should have been the play of the year. 

If the teams were reversed in this situation, is there any doubt Kelce catches it and all anybody talks about is the greatness of Mahomes?

 

It wasn't an "easy" catch to make, especially if Kincaid was really playing on torn ligaments, but he had time to adjust and wait for it to him in the hands, unmolested.

[BobbyC81]

14 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

It was a brilliant defensive call

And right before the play, Romo talks about it and says he thinks Spaga was going to send the blitzers.  He has better instincts than our coaches.

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, BobbyC81 said:

And right before the play, Romo talks about it and says he thinks Spaga was going to send the blitzers.  He has better instincts than our coaches.

It wasn’t that they didn’t expect a blitz, it’s that they expected it to come from the left side of the formation.

41 minutes ago, Man with No Name said:

kurt warner has no idea what its like to play inside the body of Josh allen. Josh allen wouldn't be josh allen if he played the way Kurt warner played. Was Josh Allen the least sacked qb in the nfl this year? I think he's just confident in his own way of playing the game. And it could have worked out. SHould have? maybe

I think insinuating that a HOF QB has no idea about playing in the body of any QB is silly.

[Man with No Name]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

It wasn’t that they didn’t expect a blitz, it’s that they expected it to come from the left side of the formation.

I think insinuating that a HOF QB has no idea about playing in the body of any QB is silly.

please. Kurt Warner couldn't dream of making some of the throws Allen makes. The brain goes to different places depending on what you're capable of. Imagine a world where Josh Allen only attempted to make plays based on Kurt Warners capabilities. 

And i'll say this, Kurt Warner would likely be better at being Kurt Warner than Josh Allen. But Kurt Warner never had the option to be what Josh Allen is. 

[oldmanfan]

29 minutes ago, Man with No Name said:

please. Kurt Warner couldn't dream of making some of the throws Allen makes. The brain goes to different places depending on what you're capable of. Imagine a world where Josh Allen only attempted to make plays based on Kurt Warners capabilities. 

And i'll say this, Kurt Warner would likely be better at being Kurt Warner than Josh Allen. But Kurt Warner never had the option to be what Josh Allen is. 

You can go on all day and night about whether Werner could have made the throws Allen can make.  And he couldn't.  But in doing so you entirely miss the point.  What Warner was talking about is reading the defense, setting protections, and having routes available so Josh would not have needed to try and make the kind of hero throw he made, and that Kincaid should have caught.  I think Johnson was set to the right of the formation.  If he would have just saw the safety blitz and drifter right to give Josh a target Jiosh could have easily dumped it to the right flat and Johnso picks up the first down.  

 

The brain goes to different places depending on what you're capable of?  Are you suggesting Josh's brain was incapable of processing what was coming on that play?  I don't think so.  It was a great call by a great DC that fooled Brady, Josh, McGovern, pretty much everyone on the Bills offense.  And for that you give Spagnolo credit.

[Livinginthepast]

The plays that preceded the 4th down play really hurt as well. No James cook on the drive  at all . Absolutely stupid! Whose decision is that?? Then they get a a first down and Brady decides that its going to be all  passing even though they have plenty of time and TOs. The first and 2nd down play call were  f'ing inexcusable. 2 bad incompletions, no yards whatsover. This put the pressure on the 3rd down and though Cooper can catch, the screen to him was likely not going to get you a first down because he is slow and doesnt make people miss. So 3 bad calls in a row and an overabundance of caution lead to the high pressure 4th down situation.  Most of the blame is on Brady for that ending!

[Billz4ever]

3 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

And right before the play, Romo talks about it and says he thinks Spaga was going to send the blitzers.  He has better instincts than our coaches.

I mean that's really being a genius of the obvious. Spags loves sending pressure.  It's not so much they were going to blitz, it's where the blitz was going to come from and that's the key.  The Bills has protection left because as Torrence said, most of the game they were sending pressure from where it didn't look like pressure was coming pre-snap and backing off the guys who did show pressure.

 

On the 4th down, they were showing pressure from the right, so that was their reasoning to have protection set left.  Call it an error, call it a WAG, call it a decision based on the tendencies they saw basically all game.  It was a great defensive call for the play the offense ran. 

Edited Tuesday at 04:49 PM by Billz4ever

[vanislebills44]

no doubt u make that catch n this analysis is a wash, but i will say i was a bit stumped when the receiver seen his man blitz n didnt immediate run 2 the sideline...

im an armchair gm like the rest of us, but when i played beerleague football n the corner blitzed, we did somewhat of a slant 2 the sidelines...

all in all, outcoached, no 2 ways around that...

some horrendous calls no doubt, but always seeems in critical moments the other team picks a 'better' play...

 

[BuffaloBill]

 

From that angle it’s just hard to understand why Kincaid did not make a stronger play on the ball.  Additionally a hell of a throw from Josh under the circumstances.  Kincaid could have lived up to his half of “great players make great plays in big moments.”