John Butler

[Roundybout]

30 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Talent was a bigger problem than scheme.  
 

There was below average play at DT and S for most of the season along with a lack of a pass rush.   
 

 

 

I wish more people would say this. It came up on WGR as I was driving home. Eric Wood was saying "this team has just as much talent as KC." No! No, it does not! 

 

Our defensive tackles outside Oliver are mediocre at best, and our secondary was half made up of people who should not be starting on an NFL roster. 

[Billzgobowlin]

Babich was solid.  He grew the talent of every position he coached.  The defense was solid this year

[Buffalo Barbarian]

49 minutes ago, DrMaxPower said:

This offseason, the Bills were forced into a choice - Butler or Babich. At the time, most seemed in favor of going with Babich.

 

The results have obviously not been good. The defense was awful and the secondary play in particular fell of a cliff. Likely the worst of the McD era. For the 1st time, we never had a new guy flash. Every other year, there was a late round pick or UDFA that played above their draft status and contributed. They did not work well as a unit at all and there was little visible player growth over the year.

 

Do we regret this decision? How much did we end up missing Butler? Secondary play is probably the area I know least about so curious to hear opinions but I personally feel like we need to clear out the DB coaches.

 

We replaced 3/4 of the secondary and then half of them got injured, its not the coaches it was the players.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

 

I wish more people would say this. It came up on WGR as I was driving home. Eric Wood was saying "this team has just as much talent as KC." No! No, it does not! 

 

Our defensive tackles outside Oliver are mediocre at best, and our secondary was half made up of people who should not be starting on an NFL roster. 

 

Oliver is mediocre

 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

33 minutes ago, DrMaxPower said:

 

The choice in the offseason was Babich or Butler but Babich isn't who I'm referring to here. I liked Babich and agree, he helped develop talent in prior years. Choosing Babich as DC led Butler to leave and created a hole to be filled.

 

Jahmille Addae - CB coach.

Scott Booker - Nickel coach.

Joe Danna - Safeties.

 

Are these the right guys? That's my question.

 

Re: Bishop, I've said elsewhere that he did improve a bit and that he flashed a couple times in the game. That said, is anybody satisfied with what we got out of our RD 2 Safety this year? He was a disappointment overall.

 

If those are the right guys, we have little way to know. We don't see the work they do or the results. Very behind the scenes stuff. But if they aren't it's up to McDermott and Babich to assess and change if needed.

 

Regarding Bishop; coming out of the draft I had some high hopes for the kid and would have loved to see more, sure. But I think we also have to be realistic. Kid misses a substantial amount bof time hurt in TC and camp. He had to learn the defense and all the communication on the back end once the season started. Especially in McDermott's system the communication is really the key back there. So realistically we got what we got. 

 

I do come away with the hope that we saw some really good things out of him late in the year and that will transition well to year 2. I think he's a plus starter to begin the year next year.

[Just Jack]

51 minutes ago, Sojourner said:

Vintage Pro Bowl John Butler!

 

Hawaii here we come!!!

 

That's actually from Marv Levy's induction in the Hall Of Fame, 2001.  

[Charles Romes]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

We replaced 3/4 of the secondary and then half of them got injured, its not the coaches it was the players.

 

 

 

Oliver is mediocre

 

 

that’s a common perception on this board. If you jump to other teams’ boards and podcasters he’s often viewed as a real problem. 

[steven50]

You guys are going to lose your minds when the draft comes up and we go almost all defense, but its going to be the right thing to do.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, colin said:

what's butler doing now?

[Jay_Fixit]

1 hour ago, Just Jack said:

You say John Butler and my first thought was this guy...

 

 

Anyone who's been a fan for more than 7 years thought this too.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Very few here did. I did, I don't know if anyone else did

 

Of course, because posters here are all fans and see everything through rose colored glasses.  But many in the media who, while not 100% are looking at things more objectively and see they players who were gone.  In hind sight the moves on offense worked out, but not so much in the secondary.  

 

For the past two season, there was post prior to the beginning of the season stating how they liked the overall WR group better than the year prior, how'd that work out, particularly last year with Hardy and the other guy, can't recall his name.  My point, folks here for the most part are clueless.

 

Overall the Bills overachieved, but once you get to the final 4 and you're so close, add to that beat KC in regular season and KC doesn't look as good as in the past,  it hurts even more to lose.   Reality is they were playing with house money by the end.

[BillsFan2313]

14 minutes ago, steven50 said:

You guys are going to lose your minds when the draft comes up and we go almost all defense, but its going to be the right thing to do.

 

If they sign back Cooper then I am ok with a mostly defense draft

[colin]

1 hour ago, DrMaxPower said:

 

The choice in the offseason was Babich or Butler but Babich isn't who I'm referring to here. I liked Babich and agree, he helped develop talent in prior years. Choosing Babich as DC led Butler to leave and created a hole to be filled.

 

Jahmille Addae - CB coach.

Scott Booker - Nickel coach.

Joe Danna - Safeties.

 

Are these the right guys? That's my question.

 

Re: Bishop, I've said elsewhere that he did improve a bit and that he flashed a couple times in the game. That said, is anybody satisfied with what we got out of our RD 2 Safety this year? He was a disappointment overall.

 

 

i was high on bishop pre draft, but for a 2nd pick at a non premium position in a d that has historically good play at that position?  he sucks so far.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

25 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

that’s a common perception on this board. If you jump to other teams’ boards and podcasters he’s often viewed as a real problem. 

 

Oliver?

 

 

[colin]

i know im being a little contrarian here, but i think on d we need to add one real impact guy, and just be cheap and young everywhere else.  keep our young guys, have rookies start, ditch von, let groot walk after his extension year, just roll w carter at 1t and whoever else we draft or sign cheap.

 

my view is -- we get the same performance in the playoffs no matter what our d looks like player wise.  we had all these guys come in, paid these contracts, signed all those fa linemen, had the all pro safety tandem, had white at corner, had levi wallace (lol), had benford, lost him for elam, etc etc.  the results are all identical.  same scheme w a few tweaks, same crap all around.

 

i say get one real talent, DE or DT, so we have one play maker to dial something up sometimes, and just roll w who else is there.  put the resources into going from a really good OL to a monster OL (upgrade RG, maybe another swing guy to compete with torrence/whoever), add a real outside wr talent (higgins) and just let the rest fight it out to see who can stay (kink vs knox, coleman vs samuel, the backs, who ever).  assuming we stay w the same coaches, who i am on record hating, let's not put good money after bad on D.  get younger and faster and cheaper and let the chips fall where they may.

 

we can roll w bishop and someone cheap to replace hamlin, or even just hamlin, at safety.

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Babich was a disaster from the opening game 

 

I called him out multiple times and caught a lot of flack for it, but the guy got out coached time after time.

 

29th on 3rd downs- Just not good enough 

The reason for this is a lack of pressure from the front 4 and linebackers easily fooled by misdirection (namely Dorian Williams).   All season long they tried manufacturing pressure and many times it came at the expense of coverage.

 

Like I said, this was a talent issue 

[DuckyBoys]

Lets be honest the defense doesn't have elite talent on any of the three levels  The corners struggle with man lacking makeup speed.  The safeties are awful , everytime they blitzed Hamlin I cringed   We went from a strength of the team when Poyer and Hyde were in their prime to the weakest link. Linebackers are meh  Milano is above average to elite when healthy but he's getting up there and like  Ferrari always in the shop.  The DL is too small and Von needed to retire 3 years ago  But these are McDermotts choice to run the "system" he favors   We need a game wrecker on defense that the opposing offense has to game plan for  Closest we have is Oliver who will whip up on some matchup during the season for one or two games  

[The Jokeman]

3 hours ago, DrMaxPower said:

We consistently had one of the best pass defenses in the league when he was here.

Tre White, Jordan Poyer and Micah Hyde are hard to replace. At best we can say is Benford replaced White yet can't say Other two have. Rapp did some good things but at times him and Hamlin looked lost in coverage.

[BillsFan130]

13 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

The reason for this is a lack of pressure from the front 4 and linebackers easily fooled by misdirection (namely Dorian Williams).   All season long they tried manufacturing pressure and many times it came at the expense of coverage.

 

Like I said, this was a talent issue 

When you're 29th in 3rd downs, it's not just one thing.

 

Its play calling, lack of pass rush, and poor coverage 

Edited Tuesday at 12:58 AM by BillsFan130

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, DrMaxPower said:

This offseason, the Bills were forced into a choice - Butler or Babich. At the time, most seemed in favor of going with Babich.

 

The results have obviously not been good. The defense was awful and the secondary play in particular fell of a cliff. Likely the worst of the McD era. For the 1st time, we never had a new guy flash. Every other year, there was a late round pick or UDFA that played above their draft status and contributed. They did not work well as a unit at all and there was little visible player growth over the year.

 

Do we regret this decision? How much did we end up missing Butler? Secondary play is probably the area I know least about so curious to hear opinions but I personally feel like we need to clear out the DB coaches.

why should it matter?

 

The Bills Defense have give up consistently 30+ points to the Chiefs in the playoffs...how does a different DC make a difference. The execution was lacking...there was no pass rush and no ability to contain Mahomes...that has been the story in all the four losses...

[klos63]

3 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Talent was a bigger problem than scheme.  
 

There was below average play at DT and S for most of the season along with a lack of a pass rush.   
 

 

I doubt any team was intimidated by the thought of facing our defense.  Not much of a pass rush, safeties were average at best,  not strong on the line,  all pressure on the linebackers. 

We need a restart on defense, Beane needs to make a big move to somehow get a pass rusher.