Is it time to move on from McDermott?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

One game because McD coached us to 6-6 at the midpoint. 
 

or was that not his fault too

 

The year I was talking about was the year we beat NE out by one game.  So I suppose it's also McD 's fault that he coached them to 13-3 this year too then? If you want to talk regular season record, then it's all on McD that we have the 2nd best overall record over the past 5 years or so?

[SoTier]

 

6 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Because Bills fans look around and see all the failures every single season of new coaches brought in.   Granted these other teams don't have Allen at QB so understand that does make a difference, but there's much more room to go down than up.  Are they going to bring in a re-tread or some up and coming assistant?  Both have risks, the re-tread probably has more risk, he be the next Andy Reid or the next Doug Pederson who has a SB win on his resume and had a good QB in Jax.  Or they bring in a new guy, could be the next Greg Williams.

 

Most coaches all have their own scheme that they want to play and often the players on the team don't fit that scheme so needs to be wholesale changes on at least one side of the ball.  That's easier to do when in a rebuild mode as you probably aren't close to the cap and often have one or two star players that you can trade away for more draft picks.  A team like the Bills doesn't have that so you better hope the next coach that comes in says I can win with this roster make up which would be rare to find.

 

Tomlin and Harbaugh have coached longer with their teams but since McD came to town have done worse overall.  Do they get a pass because they won one SB 17 and 12 years ago?  Since 2012 the year they won the SB Harbaugh has only one one division round playoff game and that was when he was the #1 overall seed.   His only other wins were in the wild card but he's still coaching.

 

It's not easy to find a better coach

 

Don't confuse haters with facts.

 

 

5 hours ago, Jrb1979 said:

It's the same results. The one constant is the head coach.  

 

4 hours ago, gordong said:

yes, going on two years now...defense has failed every year in the playoffs. that on him  

 

Actually this narrative is simply untrue because the last two playoff losses to KC were significantly impacted by defensive injuries that happened late in the season or in the playoffs.

• In 2023, the Bills limped into the playoff game with devastating injuries to their defense including Benford, Bernard, Hyde, Milano, Phillips, Rapp, Spector, and White.  The Bills suffered a number of defensive injuries late in the season and ended up bringing LB AJ Klein out of retirement for the final game.
• In 2024, the Bills the entered the KC game missing Benford and Rapp on defense, and they lost Bernard early on in the game.

Endlessly repeating the same false narrative doesn't make it true.

 

4 hours ago, Jrb1979 said:

I would want to do what the Rams did when they were close. Especially like this past season. When the Bills were one of the best teams, trade some 1sts and get some difference makers. 

 

The Bills didn't have the cap space to go "all in" this past season.   That wasn't McDermott's fault.   The reality of the current NFL is that building a roster is a juggling act among needs, availability, injuries, free agency movement, and cap restrictions.   The idea that McDermott's stubbornly sticking with a "system" ignores the reality that the Bills have had some bad luck with some of their best talent on defense, namely the injuries to Miller, White and Milano.  If the Bills had a game wrecker DE and a top notch CB or S, I think we'd see a significant change in the McDermott's "system".

 

Maybe, with an improved cap situation, 2025 is the year the Bills go "all in" and bring in improved talent on the defense, especially on the DL.

Edited February 14 by SoTier

[folz]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

to say “there’s no guarantee Fangio could do it here” then somehow use McDermott’s stats from Carolina/Philly while holding Fangio’s record against him in Denver when he had no QB seems inherently unfair.

 

 

If you think McDermott is all that holds us back from being terrible again, I get not wanting to move on.

 

 

Since Fangio was only a HC for three years, I wasn't comparing their head coaching stints, I was comparing their defenses (when they were either a HC or a DC). The reason I started the stats at 2011 was because Fangio wasn't in the NFL from 2005-2011 (he was coaching in the college ranks). I was just trying to get the largest relative data set. Fangio's prior stint in the league (1995-2005), was prior to Sean's career. But, from 2011-2024, both Vic and Sean were either a HC or DC in the league. And that does not include Sean's time in Philly (2009, 2010) when he had a top 10 defense both years (it does include his time in Carolina). Not trying to cherry pick data.

 

And I specifically mentioned the QBs Fangio had in Denver, of course he would have been better if he had a better QB. That's why I mentioned it. I wasn't trying to deride Fangio as a coach, more just pointing out that he is quite similar in fact to McDermott. And no shoe in to be better.

 

 

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

The defense wasn’t even that good this year. Outside the top 10, and their efficiency numbers were legit terrible.

 

Was there a game this season we won only because of masterful McD defensive coaching?

What if McD says no, I’m not hiring a top defensive coordinator.

 

The defense lost 13 players from last year and we didn't really have the assets to replace them properly. Now, sure, a lot of those guys were average or old players, but that is a lot of experience in that defense and veteran leadership that walked out the door. And yet the Bills defense was still 11th in points allowed and 2nd in takeaways this season. Not bad considering the circumstances. And, despite the down year, over the last 6 seasons, the Bills defense is still #1 in fewest points allowed and #1 in takeaways. Across a 6-year period under McDermott.

 

 

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

So wait, you don’t even think McDermott is the biggest reason we make the playoffs every year but somehow losing him means we wouldn’t make the playoffs anymore?

 

Um

 

I don't think that anyone is saying another coach couldn't get us to the playoffs, or win the division. We are just saying why take a step back to go forward. Over the last 5 seasons, the Bills have scored more points than any other team in the league and at the same time allowed the fewest points scored against them. They also have the second best record in the league over that span. I mean, honestly, how does anyone do better than that? And for the "any coach could make the playoffs/win a division" with Josh Allen (or an elite QB)...well, John Elway missed the playoffs 6 times in his career, Aaron Rodgers also had 6 seasons of watching the playoffs from home, Marino didn't reach the post-season 7 times in his career, and Drew Brees (with Sean Payton as his HC) missed the playoffs in 10 different seasons. Playoffs, let alone Super Bowls, are not guaranteed just because you have an elite QB.

 

But, what it really comes down to is the playoffs. Some people blame McDermott for the playoff losses (he is the sole or main reason for our defeats), while others believe that luck, injuries, referees, life circumstances, talent, execution, etc. are as much or more to blame than the coaching. Was coaching really the main factor in the back-to-back 3-point playoff losses to K.C. these last two years?

 

I guess this debate will rage on until McD either wins a Super Bowl or gets fired. Some think it is a guarantee that he can never win it. He's just not good enough or something (despite being a couple of bad ref calls away from the SB this year---with a team that was supposedly rebuilding/retooling and lacking talent). While others of us see how close we are and say, of course he can...if the ball just bounces our way once in any of those last three games against KC, or in a future game and we're right there. The fear of a new coach is all of the change and turnover and if that could ruin or set back/delay what we already have, which is so close. Plus, it's just hard to call for the head of a coach with the overall record, stats, rankings, and accomplishments that McD has. [I know, some do not consider Division Championships, playoffs 7 of 8 years, the second best record in the league over a 6-year span, the most points scored and fewest points allowed over 5-6 years, as accomplishments---but, to each his own.]

Edited February 14 by folz

[HappyDays]

6 hours ago, MJS said:

You can't cast aspersions at the coach or the scheme when you don't have concrete things to point to besides the result.

 

I did point to concrete things. But you ignored them.

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Don't confuse haters with facts.

 

 

 

 

Actually this narrative is simply untrue because the last two playoff losses to KC were significantly impacted by defensive injuries that happened late in the season or in the playoffs.

• In 2023, the Bills limped into the playoff game with devastating injuries to their defense including Benford, Bernard, Hyde, Milano, Phillips, Rapp, Spector, and White.  The Bills suffered a number of defensive injuries late in the season and ended up bringing LB AJ Klein out of retirement for the final game.
• In 2024, the Bills the entered the KC game missing Benford and Rapp on defense, and they lost Bernard early on in the game.

Endlessly repeating the same false narrative doesn't make it true.

 

 

The Bills didn't have the cap space to go "all in" this past season.   That wasn't McDermott's fault.   The reality of the current NFL is that building a roster is a juggling act among needs, availability, injuries, free agency movement, and cap restrictions.   The idea that McDermott's stubbornly sticking with a "system" ignores the reality that the Bills have had some bad luck with some of their best talent on defense, namely the injuries to Miller, White and Milano.  If the Bills had a game wrecker DE and a top notch CB or S, I think we'd see a significant change in the McDermott's "system".

 

Maybe, with an improved cap situation, 2025 is the year the Bills go "all in" and bring in improved talent on the defense, especially on the DL.

What team doesn’t have a couple starters out? This is healthy as we can ever hope to be after 19 games. What context are you using to say that this level of injuries is note worthy? Plenty of arguments. But throwing this one at 2024 sort of minimizes the years it actually had some relevancy. 

[folz]

2 hours ago, Governor said:

Well, he’s gone as far as hiring multiple DC puppets and then calling it “their” defense to keep his scheme alive and now he’s hiring other defensive coaches signaling a big change but again its to deflect and save his scheme once again.

 

The only one who could make him hire a real DC with a new scheme is Pegula and that won’t happen until McD truly feels his job is in jeopardy.

 

You do realize that McDermott is going into his ninth year as a head coach right? And that the league changes, right? In 2020, no one could stop the Chiefs and Bills offenses, so shell defenses and cover zero became popular. Nickel defense had already been being used more and that continued. Running backs were an after-thought. So, the last couple of years, the running game has returned in a big way (because of the light boxes). Backs having career years, jumbo packages, 6-offensive linemen, tush pushes, bigger, stronger WRs to help in the run game, quick passing games to eliminate the pass rush and attack the soft zones, etc., etc. And so defenses need to shift once again. It's a never-ending back-and-forth game.

 

Maybe Sean is just showing his growth mindset and tweaking and changing with the league (trying to stay ahead of the curve) as a good coach should (rather than being stuck in the past), as opposed to your notion that he's just hired "puppets" to "deflect and save his scheme." I mean, wow, you really do have a low impression of Sean as a man, don't you?

 

Also, did you see my above post, where I noted that over the last six years the Bills have the fewest points scored against them and the most takeaways of any team? I mean, he must be doing something right despite all of the puppets, the terrible scheme, and all of the coaching blunders.

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

What team doesn’t have a couple starters out?

 

Unfortunately our defense's performance against Baltimore doesn't count because they were missing Zay Flowers.

[Mikie2times]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Unfortunately our defense's performance against Baltimore doesn't count because they were missing Zay Flowers.

I mean, 400 yards, 20+ first downs, 7 yards per play, 30+ points. Just missed the 30. We did some things well in that game but some want to hold that as evidence we know what were doing on that side of the ball. Very little difference between that game and others like the Colts, Bengals, Chiefs multiple times. The difference was turnovers. Kudos to us for forcing them, but doesn’t speak to the bigger picture that is just our inability to get teams off the field and get the possessions back to our offense. 

[MJS]

58 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I did point to concrete things. But you ignored them.

I didn't ignore them. I stated that they were player execution issues, and I believe that. We didn't have many of those issues when peak Hyde and Poyer were playing.

 

My reply wasn't to you anyway.

[longtimebillsfan]

13 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Right, I'm the only Bills fan that has questions about the probability that Sean McDermott wins a Super Bowl as Bills HC. 

You are in the minority.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

On 1/27/2025 at 5:33 AM, Gunsgoodtime said:

We are 0-4 against the Chiefs in the playoffs

NTM were the only defense that played horribly against the Chiefs this postseason. The Texans gave up 212 total yards and we all seen what the Eagles defense did to the Chiefs. 

 

We couldn't take advantage of the weakness of the Chiefs at offensive tackle position. We have the most vanilla pass rush scheme in the league by far hardly any wide 9 lineups or stunts and twists . 

 

Tim Settle and Poona Ford went to other teams and had great yrs why is that? The key is the scheme and the talent they play with on the Bills. We've put more assets into this Dline then every team in the NFL these last 7yrs under Mcd and he only has 1 player with double digit sacks to show for it and we're talking about a team that's usually playing in the lead in most of our games. I can't understate how bad that is. 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

6 hours ago, folz said:

 

Since Fangio was only a HC for three years, I wasn't comparing their head coaching stints, I was comparing their defenses (when they were either a HC or a DC). The reason I started the stats at 2011 was because Fangio wasn't in the NFL from 2005-2011 (he was coaching in the college ranks). I was just trying to get the largest relative data set. Fangio's prior stint in the league (1995-2005), was prior to Sean's career. But, from 2011-2024, both Vic and Sean were either a HC or DC in the league. And that does not include Sean's time in Philly (2009, 2010) when he had a top 10 defense both years (it does include his time in Carolina). Not trying to cherry pick data.

 

And I specifically mentioned the QBs Fangio had in Denver, of course he would have been better if he had a better QB. That's why I mentioned it. I wasn't trying to deride Fangio as a coach, more just pointing out that he is quite similar in fact to McDermott. And no shoe in to be better.

 

 

 

The defense lost 13 players from last year and we didn't really have the assets to replace them properly. Now, sure, a lot of those guys were average or old players, but that is a lot of experience in that defense and veteran leadership that walked out the door. And yet the Bills defense was still 11th in points allowed and 2nd in takeaways this season. Not bad considering the circumstances. And, despite the down year, over the last 6 seasons, the Bills defense is still #1 in fewest points allowed and #1 in takeaways. Across a 6-year period under McDermott.

 

 

 

I don't think that anyone is saying another coach couldn't get us to the playoffs, or win the division. We are just saying why take a step back to go forward. Over the last 5 seasons, the Bills have scored more points than any other team in the league and at the same time allowed the fewest points scored against them. They also have the second best record in the league over that span. I mean, honestly, how does anyone do better than that? And for the "any coach could make the playoffs/win a division" with Josh Allen (or an elite QB)...well, John Elway missed the playoffs 6 times in his career, Aaron Rodgers also had 6 seasons of watching the playoffs from home, Marino didn't reach the post-season 7 times in his career, and Drew Brees (with Sean Payton as his HC) missed the playoffs in 10 different seasons. Playoffs, let alone Super Bowls, are not guaranteed just because you have an elite QB.

 

But, what it really comes down to is the playoffs. Some people blame McDermott for the playoff losses (he is the sole or main reason for our defeats), while others believe that luck, injuries, referees, life circumstances, talent, execution, etc. are as much or more to blame than the coaching. Was coaching really the main factor in the back-to-back 3-point playoff losses to K.C. these last two years?

 

I guess this debate will rage on until McD either wins a Super Bowl or gets fired. Some think it is a guarantee that he can never win it. He's just not good enough or something (despite being a couple of bad ref calls away from the SB this year---with a team that was supposedly rebuilding/retooling and lacking talent). While others of us see how close we are and say, of course he can...if the ball just bounces our way once in any of those last three games against KC, or in a future game and we're right there. The fear of a new coach is all of the change and turnover and if that could ruin or set back/delay what we already have, which is so close. Plus, it's just hard to call for the head of a coach with the overall record, stats, rankings, and accomplishments that McD has. [I know, some do not consider Division Championships, playoffs 7 of 8 years, the second best record in the league over a 6-year span, the most points scored and fewest points allowed over 5-6 years, as accomplishments---but, to each his own.]

Who's fault if it that this team lacks talent or is in cap trouble? I mean they draft basically no difference makers and they don't know how to manage the cap even though they lack elite talent. I say this is a McBeane problem and if one or the other is holding this team back then the one that's in control of these blunders needs to be fired and if it's both of them let them both kick rocks

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

14 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

He also just saw Joe Burrow miss the playoffs, a more talented Ravens team barely get the third seed because of a Steelers collapse, and a QB legend in his own division he grew up idolizing win just five games because he played for a clown of an organization.  The point is that he's having the same debate that we are and I have any clue which side he falls on.

Thank you ! Allen knows he’s got it good here. He was developed PROPERLY and molded into a future MVP. He has an O-line that allowed the least amount of sacks. A fantastic running game and solid defense (unless it’s KC in the postseason, but who DOESN’T have trouble w/ them?) Teams are going to have games where they give up points, but Buffalo also has 6 games where they held teams under 10 points including the 49ers and Broncos. They also stopped the might Ravens who I think were best team in the NFL. He gets plenty of endorsements and was on the cover of Madden. Also, he is a GOD in western NY. I don’t think people understand just how hard it is to beat KC on the road where they have the refs on their side. It’s a game any team loses 7/10 times. If Allen has any gripe, it is the 13 second game, but I won’t get into that. He’s a household name and most likely going to be a billionaire when it’s all said & done. He doesn’t strike me as the diva kind of guy like Diggs. He’s going live or die with the Bills. The team just needs to keep improving and we will win one. I am 100% positive. Probably one in the next year or 2 and then another one late in his career John Elway style. We have another 10 years at the very least.  

[NastyNateSoldiers]

11 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Thank you ! Allen knows he’s got it good here. He was developed PROPERLY and molded into a future MVP. He has an O-line that allowed the least amount of sacks. A fantastic running game and solid defense (unless it’s KC in the postseason, but who DOESN’T have trouble w/ them?) Teams are going to have games where they give up points, but Buffalo also has 6 games where they held teams under 10 points including the 49ers and Broncos. They also stopped the might Ravens who I think were best team in the NFL. He gets plenty of endorsements and was on the cover of Madden. Also, he is a GOD in western NY. I don’t think people understand just how hard it is to beat KC on the road where they have the refs on their side. It’s a game any team loses 7/10 times. If Allen has any gripe, it is the 13 second game, but I won’t get into that. He’s a household name and most likely going to be a billionaire when it’s all said & done. He doesn’t strike me as the diva kind of guy like Diggs. He’s going live or die with the Bills. The team just needs to keep improving and we will win one. I am 100% positive. Probably one in the next year or 2 and then another one late in his career John Elway style. We have another 10 years at the very least.  

Texans gave up 212 total yds and the Eagles D feasted on the Chiefs looks like we're the only D that had trouble with them this postseason.

[SoTier]

7 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

What team doesn’t have a couple starters out? This is healthy as we can ever hope to be after 19 games. What context are you using to say that this level of injuries is note worthy? Plenty of arguments. But throwing this one at 2024 sort of minimizes the years it actually had some relevancy. 

 

The Bills 2024 defense was not nearly as good as the  2023 defense talent-wise even when at full strength, so losses were magnified.   Benford, Bernard, and Rapp were three of the Bills best defensive players in 2024.  Benford and Rapp were replaced by Elam and Bishop in the secondary.  Easy pickings for Mahomes.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

5 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

You are in the minority.

Well luckily for you and the majority he’ll be back in 2025 to try again. 
 

[Mikie2times]

29 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

The Bills 2024 defense was not nearly as good as the  2023 defense talent-wise even when at full strength, so losses were magnified.   Benford, Bernard, and Rapp were three of the Bills best defensive players in 2024.  Benford and Rapp were replaced by Elam and Bishop in the secondary.  Easy pickings for Mahomes.

2020 and 2021 as well. 

[Negan]

Who will last longer on the Bills: Allen or McDermott.

 

I think the answer should be Allen.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, Negan said:

Who will last longer on the Bills: Allen or McDermott.

 

I think the answer should be Allen.

I think what we're seeing in this thread is most people don't ever want to move on from McDermott because it's possible to do worse. 

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I think what we're seeing in this thread is most people don't ever want to move on from McDermott because it's possible to do worse. 

 

 

 

Fear-based decision making. Right up there with Playing not to lose. Sounds about right.