Is it time to move on from McDermott?

[Yockopondowsk]

Harvey Johnson is gone.  So is Joel Collier. Rex could be lured in I suspect.  Gruden.. hey there you go..   Take a rest, it’s February.   

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Look at the Steelers records in the last nine times they've made the playoffs, 7 of those 9 seasons, they got knocked out in first game played and a good reason for those loses was because they were a low seed playing on the road.

 

The Steelers with Allen would be competing for the division title every year. The Bills if they were in the AFCN would have been the wildcard a couple times by now. It's just not a comparable situation at all.

 

I'm laying off McDermott this offseason but this has to be the year. We've given him and Beane all of Allen's 20s and they haven't even gotten us to one Super Bowl. For the life of me I can't understand how any Bills fan wouldn't want to give someone else a try. If there was improvement I'd say ok let him stick around no matter what, but every single year the playoff loss looks exactly the same with our defense giving up well above average production. If that happens again for the 6th time in a row why should we expect it to change?

[HappyDays]

51 minutes ago, SoTier said:

Who, exactly, would these head coaches be -- and are realistically available, ie, don't already have HC jobs?

 

My top two options in order were Vrabel and Ben Johnson. But they're both taken now. Ask me again next year. I'd probably favor someone in the Vrabel mold if one is available because I'd rather not have a rookie head coach getting accustomed to the job. But if the season ends with our playoff opponent punting no more than twice and making it look easy against our defense, I really won't care who we hire. I'm just so sick of it at this point.

[MJS]

1 hour ago, billrooter said:

The good and very good QBs slice it up very, very, often and every year in the playoffs. There answered for him IMo I should add. I do like the fact the Assistant coordinator or whatever the title is runs a lot more man defense.

So, it sounds like you don't have any specifics about the scheme other than man coverage vs zone coverage. Why even talk about the scheme being an issue if you don't know about the scheme or what you would do differently?

[TheFunPolice]

everyone wants to dog Tomlin but he got to 2 Super Bowls and won 1 with a HOF QB. 

 

Compare that to getting to 2 AFC Title Games and winning zero with a future HOF QB. 

[Jrb1979]

1 minute ago, MJS said:

So, it sounds like you don't have any specifics about the scheme other than man coverage vs zone coverage. Why even talk about the scheme being an issue if you don't know about the scheme or what you would do differently?

Whatever they are doing on defense hasn't changed the outcome each year. The defense continues to get lit up by good QB play each playoffs. 

[MJS]

9 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

Whatever they are doing on defense hasn't changed the outcome each year. The defense continues to get lit up by good QB play each playoffs. 

Yeah, 30 other teams can say the same thing. That's what the offseason is for. You retool, try to bring in better players, evolve the scheme, make new hires in the coaching staff, etc.

 

Heck, even if you make it to the superbowl, you do the same thing.

Edited February 13 by MJS

[HappyDays]

19 minutes ago, MJS said:

So, it sounds like you don't have any specifics about the scheme other than man coverage vs zone coverage. Why even talk about the scheme being an issue if you don't know about the scheme or what you would do differently?

 

It's not the scheme. It's the coaching details. Our contain rush fundamentals are poor. Our CB depth in man coverage is poor. Our zone spacing is poor. Our blitz packages are predictable and have poorly planned coverage schemes behind them.

 

I mean come on man. KC had basically 4 uncontested drives in a row to start the game. Yeah the talent could be better. But we're not an expansion team. That kind of horrific defensive breakdown doesn't happen unless the coaching is poor. And something similar has happened every year. The talent keeps changing but the result is always the same. You have to be willfully blind not to see it. And that's why the argument always boils down to "well it could be worse" because there is no other argument you could make. It's a loser's argument. I'm not worried about the coaching getting worse, I'm worried about it never getting better because that means we're stuck in purgatory.

[MJS]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's not the scheme. It's the coaching details. Our contain rush fundamentals are poor. Our CB depth in man coverage is poor. Our zone spacing is poor. Our blitz packages are predictable and have poorly planned coverage schemes behind them.

 

I mean come on man. KC had basically 4 uncontested drives in a row to start the game. Yeah the talent could be better. But we're not an expansion team. That kind of horrific defensive breakdown doesn't happen unless the coaching is poor. And something similar has happened every year. The talent keeps changing but the result is always the same. You have to be willfully blind not to see it. And that's why the argument always boils down to "well it could be worse" because there is no other argument you could make. It's a loser's argument. I'm not worried about the coaching getting worse, I'm worried about it never getting better because that means we're stuck in purgatory.

All of those things are execution issues that require better talent.

[Cray51]

5 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yes Cray - again not burning a pitchfork here, just some of the weird issues that came up this season as the @Thrivefourfive post originally talked about weird things that happen. 

 

Also, you pin this on his assistants - it should be noted McDermott is the HEAD coach. 

I think there is fair criticism around "does McD bring in the right assistants".  Which I can see, as McD has chosen to go with younger assistants that he believes will grow into their role.  Unfortunately, a win-now situation with Allen, so when Babich or Brady make bad moves related to inexperience, McD is partially to blame.

 

I agree - no pitchforks from you.  I just wanted to share that some of these things that were weird can be tied to actions from the coordinators - which can be traced back to Sean, but maybe not a clear direct line if that makes sense

[Jrb1979]

5 minutes ago, MJS said:

All of those things are execution issues that require better talent.

You missed the part about it happening every season. It's been multiple seasons with the same result.  

[Cray51]

6 hours ago, cgg716 said:

The defense is built EXACTLY the way McDermott prefers, the scheme is what's lacking 

So all of your excuses point to him being an hc that does absolutely nothing. So we'll be fine without him

Not excuses, context.  If you take a single statement and assume that's the entire point or context of a view on our head coach, that's a little shortsighted.  Sean's role is different and his impacts (which may have a tangent line to the scenarios that I originally commented on) as a Head Coach are more around the managerial focuses of the team.  Making sure timeouts are used effectively, managing high level strategies, etc.  Specific play calls are not part of Sean's role, as Babich and Brady have taken them over.

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

I'm laying off McDermott this offseason but this has to be the year. We've given him and Beane all of Allen's 20s and they haven't even gotten us to one Super Bowl. For the life of me I can't understand how any Bills fan wouldn't want to give someone else a try. If there was improvement I'd say ok let him stick around no matter what, but every single year the playoff loss looks exactly the same with our defense giving up well above average production. If that happens again for the 6th time in a row why should we expect it to change?

What you said makes perfect sense but the x factor in this is how would Josh react?  If he loves Beane and McDermott would he make a power play to Pegula and say fire them and I'll request a trade.  I don't know how close Allen is to them so I'm obviously speculating.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

everyone wants to dog Tomlin but he got to 2 Super Bowls and won 1 with a HOF QB. 

 

Compare that to getting to 2 AFC Title Games and winning zero with a future HOF QB. 

I'll always have more admiration for Tomlin than McDermott.  He won 2 championships with a HOF qb nowhere near as good as Josh.  Sean can't even get to a SB, let alone win one.

8 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

What you said makes perfect sense but the x factor in this is how would Josh react?  If he loves Beane and McDermott would he make a power play to Pegula and say fire them and I'll request a trade.  I don't know how close Allen is to them so I'm obviously speculating.

I think it's safe to say Josh's frustration level with McB is at a warmer level than 2020.

[Doc Brown]

4 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I think it's safe to say Josh's frustration level with McB is at a warmer level than 2020.

He was doing snow angels with him.  He just won the MVP with him as his head coach with Beane and McDermott making the trip down to New Orleans to be there for it.  Like I said, it's a variable nobody's really discussed on here when it comes to firing McDermott because we don't know Josh's opinion of him.  From what he's said over the last few years as they keep "punching that lottery ticket" then he'll have a chance at winning the Super Bowl every year.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

The Steelers with Allen would be competing for the division title every year. The Bills if they were in the AFCN would have been the wildcard a couple times by now. It's just not a comparable situation at all.

 

I'm laying off McDermott this offseason but this has to be the year. We've given him and Beane all of Allen's 20s and they haven't even gotten us to one Super Bowl. For the life of me I can't understand how any Bills fan wouldn't want to give someone else a try. If there was improvement I'd say ok let him stick around no matter what, but every single year the playoff loss looks exactly the same with our defense giving up well above average production. If that happens again for the 6th time in a row why should we expect it to change?

 

Because Bills fans look around and see all the failures every single season of new coaches brought in.   Granted these other teams don't have Allen at QB so understand that does make a difference, but there's much more room to go down than up.  Are they going to bring in a re-tread or some up and coming assistant?  Both have risks, the re-tread probably has more risk, he be the next Andy Reid or the next Doug Pederson who has a SB win on his resume and had a good QB in Jax.  Or they bring in a new guy, could be the next Greg Williams.

 

Most coaches all have their own scheme that they want to play and often the players on the team don't fit that scheme so needs to be wholesale changes on at least one side of the ball.  That's easier to do when in a rebuild mode as you probably aren't close to the cap and often have one or two star players that you can trade away for more draft picks.  A team like the Bills doesn't have that so you better hope the next coach that comes in says I can win with this roster make up which would be rare to find.

 

Tomlin and Harbaugh have coached longer with their teams but since McD came to town have done worse overall.  Do they get a pass because they won one SB 17 and 12 years ago?  Since 2012 the year they won the SB Harbaugh has only one one division round playoff game and that was when he was the #1 overall seed.   His only other wins were in the wild card but he's still coaching.

 

It's not easy to find a better coach

[Don Otreply]

54 minutes ago, MJS said:

All of those things are execution issues that require better talent.

Certainly can be “part” of the answer, but When the same break downs in the scheme happen regardless of the year or the players, its coaches not modifying their scheme that is the likely root of the problem, this coming from a guy who is pro McDermott 90 plus percent of the time, 👍

[LABILLBACKER]

20 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

He was doing snow angels with him.  He just won the MVP with him as his head coach with Beane and McDermott making the trip down to New Orleans to be there for it.  Like I said, it's a variable nobody's really discussed on here when it comes to firing McDermott because we don't know Josh's opinion of him.  From what he's said over the last few years as they keep "punching that lottery ticket" then he'll have a chance at winning the Super Bowl every year.

You're right, it's all speculation.  On the outside with snow angels and Pats on the back, everything looks wonderful.  But IMHO I think Josh is slowly starting to get pissed off. He'll never show it because he's the "good soldier".  But if you look at how after that post game presser he was a higher tier of devastated.  Something I haven't seen in previous playoff presser losses.  He looked completely and emotionally wiped out.

 

This "status quo" strategy of keep doing what we've been doing and eventually we'll break thru isn't sustainable.  Every human being has a breaking point.  And if this yearly playoff exit continues, there's no way Josh will not complain.  I think eventually he'll get tired of wearing the inadequacies of this front office.  Josh is not dumb.  He knows he's too talented to not be in one SB by now. 

Edited February 13 by LABILLBACKER

[MJS]

14 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Certainly can be “part” of the answer, but When the same break downs in the scheme happen regardless of the year or the players, its coaches not modifying their scheme that is the likely root of the problem, this coming from a guy who is pro McDermott 90 plus percent of the time, 👍

The coaches have and continue to modify their scheme. That's my argument. The Bills aren't doing the same thing on defense they were a few years ago under Frasier.

[HappyDays]

53 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

What you said makes perfect sense but the x factor in this is how would Josh react?  If he loves Beane and McDermott would he make a power play to Pegula and say fire them and I'll request a trade.  I don't know how close Allen is to them so I'm obviously speculating.

 

He didn't complain when his hand picked OC got fired. Allen strikes me as a "take things as they come" sort of player. I don't expect him to ever meet Pegula to ask for McDermott to be fired, or to complain if McDermott is ultimately fired.