Is it time to move on from McDermott?

[The Jokeman]

5 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I think it's more because if you look at the last 4 years, we've massively underperformed in the playoffs given what our elite QB has given us. Other top QB's aren't consistently losing these games they're playing very well in like we are. 

 

Our coach's side of the ball, defense, has let us down in the biggest games in 6 straight postseasons now. And yes this year it was to a team that pretty much had just a mediocre offense. 

 

It is a big problem when your defensive Head Coach is horrendous at coaching defense. 

and Brian Billick was an offensive minded head coach with a horrible offense but won with an elite defense. 

[billsfan714]

7 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

and Brian Billick was an offensive minded head coach with a horrible offense but won with an elite defense. 

The Ravens won despite Billick, not because of him and he never got another job after the Ravens, despite having a SB on his resume.

[uticaclub]

4 minutes ago, billsfan714 said:

The Ravens won despite Billick, not because of him and he never got another job after the Ravens, despite having a SB on his resume.

Did he want one or did he just take a job at NFL Network that still paid well with almost none of the stress or long nights in the office?

[HomeskillitMoorman]

17 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

and Brian Billick was an offensive minded head coach with a horrible offense but won with an elite defense. 

 

Sure but he was able to keep his offense out of the way when they won, they weren't a massive liability preventing them from winning. McD's defense is letting Mahomes complete like 75% of his passes in the playoffs against him when he's not doing that against the rest of the league. It's not a Chiefs problem we have....it's a McDermott problem that we have. 

Edited 6 hours ago by HomeskillitMoorman

[Livinginthepast]

Interesting topic and one that I struggle with as a Bills fan. We owe a lot to McD for bringing this club back and creating a great culture but when people rightfully point out how well Fangio did with a defensive squad of mid grade talent, I start to wonder what is the point of continuing with McD. Defense is supposed to be McD's specialty but his defensive schemes with arguably the same talent as Fangio's Philly squad have let us down in every big game. McD isnt an offensive guy, not a ST coach, he is definitely not known as a master chess player game manager. And if his defensive schemes and ideas have been exposed in every big game over the last 5 years that has been clearly pointed out and supported with evidence, then what is the point of keeping him? I always thought that the Bills would win the SB despite him, but the last few years have proved me wrong and I think that in at least 2 of the 5 losses (13 seconds and the Cincy game), McD's terrible defensive coaching was 100% responsible for the loss. I dont think that firing McD will happen but maybe thats what we need?

Edited 6 hours ago by Livinginthepast

[billsfan714]

I posted this in another thread but it bears repeating.   The Kelly no huddle Bills got to the superbowls and in 4 AFC championship games they gave up 33 totals points in those 4 AFC championship games.   The offense didn't have to carry the load in all of those games.

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

The people who post on this board probably represent the 1% of most passionate Bills fans. The other 99 percent of fans have real lifes.  They stop thinking about hte Bills when the season is over.  We are not a representative of the full fan base. Not even remotely. 

I enjoy conjecture on what could have been and what might be, more than most, but as long as the Bills win the NFL's crappiest division and occassionally McDermott gets to play as the Washington Generals to Andy Reid's Harlem Globetrotters, the Bills will be considered successful. 

Still laughing at the Washington General to Andy Reid's Globetrotters.   Well done.

Edited 5 hours ago by billsfan714

[billsfan714]

31 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

Did he want one or did he just take a job at NFL Network that still paid well with almost none of the stress or long nights in the office?

Yes he interviewed for HC jobs after the Ravens and was never given one.

[Cash]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

I don't necessarily disagree with some of what you say here.

On the other hand, your post should have the following asterisks, IMO:

*The Bills have the most wins in the NFL since 2020

*The Bills have the best point differential in the NFL since 2020 
*The Bills have won the AFC East a franchise record five times in a row

*If not for Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs, there's a very good chance the Bills would have appeared in at least one Super Bowl

*The Bills were a touchdown away from being in the Super Bowl THIS year

 

At the end of the day, none of what I just listed resulted in the Bills hoisting a Lombardi, and that's obviously the ultimate goal. 

But if you're going to make the points you just made about "staleness" and "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic", it seems only fair to mention that the Bills have been one of the most consistently excellent franchises in the NFL the past five years.

They consistently win their division, consistently rank at the top of point differential and wins league wide, and consistently make the playoffs. A Super Bowl win is the ONLY thing they haven't done yet. Seems like quite an accomplished and successful franchise to be likening to the Titanic.

 

Thanks for this.  I just don't think "Super Bowl or bust" is a fair standard to hold anyone to.  MAYBE in the days before free agency and the salary cap, when it was a lot more feasible to assemble and keep a superior team.  I don't know if we'll win a Super Bowl under McDermott and Beane, but I think most external candidates would make our chances get a lot worse.  If someone could guarantee me that their replacements would be upgrades, I'd absolutely call for their heads.  But you can't, and I don't like those odds - at least not right now.

 

And for the record, I think the Bills *did* show improvement this year.  The talent level took a step back due to cap reasons, but the wins and offensive stats did not.  We went to the AFC Championship game, which isn't the goal, but is still an accomplishment.  [Side note: if making the NFL's Final Four doesn't count for anything, why even bother watching games?  Just show up for the Super Bowl, since that's the only thing that matters.]  Our QB won the MVP award, which a Bill hasn't done since Thurman in 1991.  It took everything the Chiefs had to narrowly beat us by 3 in their house.  And both of our coordinators should get better next season, if only just due to having more experience.

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

I enjoy conjecture on what could have been and what might be, more than most, but as long as the Bills win the NFL's crappiest division and occassionally McDermott gets to play as the Washington Generals to Andy Reid's Harlem Globetrotters, the Bills will be considered successful. 

Oh jeezus your post touched on what I consider to be one of the seven levels of hell.  No.  NO!

[Logic]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

Coordinators have changed, players have changed, and the Bills are still a touchdown away. 

Meanwhile, multiple other teams around the league have ALSO changed coordinators, players, head coaches, and GMs, and they're all MORE than a touchdown away.

[Cash]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

Meanwhile, multiple other teams around the league have ALSO changed coordinators, players, head coaches, and GMs, and they're all MORE than a touchdown away.

 

Everyone except Sirianni should be fired.  Andy Reid's team did WORSE this year compared to the last 2.  And everyone else didn't even make the Super Bowl, which is the minimum benchmark for coaching competence.

Edited 5 hours ago by Cash

[oldmanfan]

6 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I agree with you McDermott has evolved. 

 

He started as Bills HC trumpeting a strong run game to play in snowy Buffalo weather and winning the field position battle. I remember the interview on WGR well. 

 

This year it was evident that he was more joyful, happier, spoke frequently about how special the City of Buffalo is. 

 

 

But ... when you say arbitrary reasons and fans just want blood ... WR quality was again a major contributor to this teams downfall in the Playoffs. I know Beane says "we're close" - Brandon the team got halfway there to a Super Bowl victory. Once again Allen trying to throw down the field and it's Mack Hollins leading the way. Didn't double dip at WR to give yourself the best chance, traded out of the first round. They had to try something after the Allen 9/30 Houston game so Amari Cooper was brought in. Of course I was a fan of the move, they had to try something. 

 

And this is where you say but this is a Beane criticism. Well, as we've said that's the downside of a defensive head coach, Allen will lift good OCs and you're always at risk of losing those coaches. 

 

 

McDermott

 

So onto McDermott - a lot of debate right now on who to extend/re-sign - Benford, Bernard, Rousseau and Hamlin if you want him. This will use up the majority of cap space the team has, but also it locks the Bills further into the Sean McDermott defensive style. He is the one directing the FO on what type of players his staff needs. It's why it becomes an existential crisis for this team to take Taron Johnson off the field sometimes and put Dorian Williams in. It's why we have to employ a defensive line rotation, and why the Safety's play 20-yards down the field, and why good QBs eat his zone defense apart, and when the pivot to man defense there is always a weak corner to pick on. 

 

McDermott is the architect of the defense. He's had significant investment from the FO to support his vision. And it's a defense that continues to crumble in the Playoffs. 

 

More than anything it's the gut wrenching losses that are starting to pile up on his resume - up to and including 2020 was gravy for the team. As you said the 17-year Playoff drought ended, he eventually got over his man crush on Nate Peterman, and the team improved throughout 2019 and 2020. 

 

But 13-seconds was an all-time debacle. 

 

Then the team escapes the Wildcard in 2022, only to be hammered by the Bengals at home in which his defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier said the team had already developed a gameplan for the Monday Nighter and they were going reuse that. 

 

Then 2023 the team goes on the run to make the Playoffs, only to fall apart health wise against the Dolphins and Steelers so they are depleted against the Chiefs. 

 

2024, the team is better offensively than anyone really predicted, they lead the league with a +27 turnover differential, hit the Playoffs healthy, stop the Ravens, and once again can't contain the KC offense and the offense has a below average game for them and they lose again. 

 

So 8-years in now, 7-7 in the Playoffs, 7-2 at home, 0-5 on the Road. 

 

We're staring at the defensive line needing to be rebuilt, #2 corner is a need again, both Safety positions are weak, the best linebacker in 15-years is getting older. 

 

 

 

Bottom Line

 

The model for this entire McDermott-Beane build has been to draft, develop and retain. The results have been some good players in the draft, but few real difference makers. We've extended our own guys and the roster is now maxed out in cap space annually. We rely on restructures to get compliant every year. 

 

On the field it's a lot of Josh Allen covering for an average (being nice) group of skill position players. 

 

The defense has been atrocious in elimination games. 

 

Beane and McDermott are a package deal. 

 

The problem is the clock on Allen is ticking, next year he is 29 years old, Year 8. 

 

You don't win the Super Bowl next year, and now he's 30 years old. 

 

You're not firing McDermott and Beane, they get 2025. But if they lose another AFCCG (0-3), or a Divisional (2-4) I think it's more than fair to ask can this HC and GM even get you to a single Super Bowl? 

 

It's professional sports, you don't get to keep the job forever because you're a nice guy and adopt Buffalo as your home.

 

And I would think if Pegula did his research on HCs and GMs this year, there would be plenty of people that would investment more resources around Allen, and try a different style of defense. Pegula has done his part with the money. It's time for the Playoff results. 

 

 

 

 

 

How old were Elway and P Manning when they won their first?  Not that we don’t need improvement in areas but the hysteria is- well- hysterical.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

10 minutes ago, Cash said:

 

Thanks for this.  I just don't think "Super Bowl or bust" is a fair standard to hold anyone to.  MAYBE in the days before free agency and the salary cap, when it was a lot more feasible to assemble and keep a superior team.  I don't know if we'll win a Super Bowl under McDermott and Beane, but I think most external candidates would make our chances get a lot worse.  If someone could guarantee me that their replacements would be upgrades, I'd absolutely call for their heads.  But you can't, and I don't like those odds - at least not right now.

 

And for the record, I think the Bills *did* show improvement this year.  The talent level took a step back due to cap reasons, but the wins and offensive stats did not.  We went to the AFC Championship game, which isn't the goal, but is still an accomplishment.  [Side note: if making the NFL's Final Four doesn't count for anything, why even bother watching games?  Just show up for the Super Bowl, since that's the only thing that matters.]  Our QB won the MVP award, which a Bill hasn't done since Thurman in 1991.  It took everything the Chiefs had to narrowly beat us by 3 in their house.  And both of our coordinators should get better next season, if only just due to having more experience.

 

That's a really hyperbolic way to look at what argument is being made though because this is all a composite of the last 6 years. McDermott's side of the ball has let us down in 6 straight seasons. This year was just yet another in a long line. 

 

Let me ask you this...do you think any other team is having this same issue where an elite QB is playing very well in the playoffs and we still can't even get to a SB? Or even have this hard of a time getting past the Divisional? The Ravens haven't been to the big dance but they don't lose when Lamar plays really well in the playoffs...he just hasn't played very well in quite a few of them. There's no other team that is consistently losing with a top QB or really any QB in the playoffs that plays this well consistently. 

 

This has been a unique Buffalo Bills problem...what reason would you say is the cause of this?

Edited 5 hours ago by HomeskillitMoorman

[Logic]

1 minute ago, Cash said:

 

Thanks for this.  I just don't think "Super Bowl or bust" is a fair standard to hold anyone to.  MAYBE in the days before free agency and the salary cap, when it was a lot more feasible to assemble and keep a superior team.  I don't know if we'll win a Super Bowl under McDermott and Beane, but I think most external candidates would make our chances get a lot worse.  If someone could guarantee me that their replacements would be upgrades, I'd absolutely call for their heads.  But you can't, and I don't like those odds - at least not right now.

 

And for the record, I think the Bills *did* show improvement this year.  The talent level took a step back due to cap reasons, but the wins and offensive stats did not.  We went to the AFC Championship game, which isn't the goal, but is still an accomplishment.  [Side note: if making the NFL's Final Four doesn't count for anything, why even bother watching games?  Just show up for the Super Bowl, since that's the only thing that matters.]  Our QB won the MVP award, which a Bill hasn't done since Thurman in 1991.  It took everything the Chiefs had to narrowly beat us by 3 in their house.  And both of our coordinators should get better next season, if only just due to having more experience.

Great post. Thanks.

People tend to think that whatever replacement we get would definitely be an upgrade. And while of course it's possible they would be, it's also very possible they would be a DOWNgrade. After all, winning one's division five years in a row is quite an accomplishment (first time it's happened in Bills history), as is making it to the conference championship game. 

People are quick to say "well, McDermott has Josh Allen, so of COURSE he's successful", but that simply ignores and minimizes the tons of head coaches who have very good QBs and still don't routinely post double digit wins and claim division crowns. If these things are so automatic just by virtue of having quality QB play, why haven't the Chargers been very good under Justin Herbert? Why don't the Bengals consistently post double digit wins and win division titles like we do?

I believe that winning consistently and making the playoffs year after year is harder than people think. And I believe that it's nowhere NEAR the foregone conclusion some seem to think it is that anyone replacing McDermott would constitute an improvement.

The Bills, while undergoing significant roster turnover, breaking in two new coordinators, and posting a TON of a dead cap, improved from last year and made the AFC Championship game for the first time since 2020. I'm not sure what it is about that year-to-year improvement and being an eyelash away from a Super Bowl -- WHILE getting younger and shedding veterans and eating a bunch of dead cap, no less -- that makes people so eager to move on from the head coach and so sure that anyone that replaces him will be an improvement.

 

[billsfan714]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

How old were Elway and P Manning when they won their first?  Not that we don’t need improvement in areas but the hysteria is- well- hysterical.

Neither one won the superbowl with Jim Mora or Dan Reeves.   It took a change at HC.

[Logic]

1 minute ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

That's a really hyperbolic way to look at what argument is being made though because this is all a composite of the last 6 years. McDermott's side of the ball has let us down in 6 straight seasons. This year was just yet another in a long line. 

 

Let me ask you this...do you think any other team is having this same issue where an elite QB is playing very well in the playoffs and we still can't even get to a SB? The Ravens haven't but they don't lose when Lamar plays really well in the playoffs...he just hasn't played very well in quite a few of them. There's no other team that is consistently losing with a top QB or really any QB in the playoffs that plays this well consistently. 

 

Why do you believe this has been a unique Buffalo Bills problem?

How about teams with very good to elite QB play who don't even MAKE the playoffs?

Herbert's Chargers have been subpar until this season and have missed the playoffs several times.

Burrow's Bengals missed the playoffs entirely this year.

Do we get to count those?

[LABILLBACKER]

We're always a td away. Call me when we build a violent defense like Philly. Then.... maybe then I'll get excited.  And for those fans who are satisfied and content with what this Allen era team has accomplished,  I truly applaud you. I really do (no LABILLBACKER sarcasm)...it is miserable and frustrating not getting to the finish line. All I can control as a fan is to continue practicing hope & optimism.  Continuing to support this team.  At my age and after all I've seen and experienced as a Bills fanatic, it's just too unhealthy and exhausting to continue fighting, sparring and arguing about what is the "proper route" to the finish line. 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

The people who post on this board probably represent the 1% of most passionate Bills fans. The other 99 percent of fans have real lifes.  They stop thinking about hte Bills when the season is over.  We are not a representative of the full fan base. Not even remotely. 

I enjoy conjecture on what could have been and what might be, more than most, but as long as the Bills win the NFL's crappiest division and occassionally McDermott gets to play as the Washington Generals to Andy Reid's Harlem Globetrotters, the Bills will be considered successful. 

Living in Buffalo my entire life and being on this website I can tell you you're completely wrong LOL 

 

I have plenty of friends and family and acquaintances that are not on this website.. and once the bill season is over they talk about who we can draft, who we can trade for, what moves we can do.. what the next year schedule looks like lol

 

Bills fandom doesn't typically end in January and start back up in August lol to a lot of people in Buffalo it's something you're born into

 

People in Buffalo talk bills with random strangers on the streets corners 

Edited 4 hours ago by Buffalo716

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

Sure but he was able to keep his offense out of the way when they won, they weren't a massive liability preventing them from winning. McD's defense is letting Mahomes complete like 75% of his passes in the playoffs against him when he's not doing that against the rest of the league. It's not a Chiefs problem we have....it's a McDermott problem that we have. 

And yet McDermott lead us to all the games prior to the losses. I won't disagree that our defense is the problem yet I'm not blaming him for a missed FG by Bass that could have tied 2023 Chiefs game and we had a chance at the end of this season too. 

[SoCal Deek]

The Chiefs played TWENTY games this season. They scored 30 or more points in regulation a grand total of TWO of those games. Once was against the awful Carolina Panthers, in which they put up exactly 30…..and the other was in the Championship game….against guess who!