All this talk about lack of separation in passing game

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Bruffalo said:

I'd draft someone earlier. Good WRs on rookie deals are the 3rd best value proposition in the NFL (QB and DE being 1 and 2).

 

As much as Josh is elevating the WR Core, I think the passing game is showing some minor limitations compared to some other high powered offenses. 

They could. DT and CB are high on my list. But they have an extra 2nd. 
 

 

[Bruffalo]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They could. DT and CB are high on my list. But they have an extra 2nd. 
 

 

Yeah, that's totally understandable, but it's hard for me to not be on the "let's maximize Allen" mindset. 

[BuffaloBill]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBillies said:

Speedy, quick, shifty, precise route runners get open by separation:

- Shakir/Samuel

- Amon-Ra St. Brown

- Garrett Wilson

- Jaxon Smith-Njigba

- Ladd McConkey

- Tyreek Hill

- Etc.

 

And certain freaks are always open regardless of separation:

- Ja'Marr Chase

- Justin Jefferson

- CeeDee Lamb

- Puka Nacua

- Etc.

 

Keon Coleman and Amari Cooper have flashed a little talent in line with the second group. This by no means elite talent but the ability to flash it. Keon may with time become steadier in his ability to do it. 

[BarleyNY]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

It's actually IMO been kind of a reversion.  Remember when Beane traded a 3rd rounder or whatever it was for Fat Kelvin Benjamin?  That was on the stated philosophy that "big catch radius" was the way to go and "he's always open 2 feet over his head".  

 

Then in 2019 when we signed fast smurfs Beasley and Brown, "catch radius" got re-defined as being agile and able to adjust on the ball.  Diggs in 2020, elite route runner with elite hands who could adjust on the ball.

 

The problem is, physical teams were taking those guys away when the playoffs came around and the refs kept the laundry in their pockets. 

 

So now we're hearing about "big catch radius" and "always open over his head" again with Kincaid and Coleman.

 

Coleman was catching more than 50% of his targets before Poyer did whatever he did to his arm (61%) and, the really horrid 20% game he had was with Trubisky and Mike White throwing to him.

 

The Benjamin trade still angers me. But Beasley and Diggs were both excellent separators. In fact, Diggs was at the top of the league in that category when we acquired him. 

 

Coleman simply has to develop and be able to separate enough, consistently enough to give himself more opportunities to make uncontested catches. Very few WRs can make a living primarily on contested catches (thought the few that do are game changers). 

[boyst]

2 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

I propose the everybody eats but we have the Joey Chestnut of WRs so you better eat fast offense in 2025

Is that going to be kelvin benjamin? That guy eats.

[Rubes]

We need a WR who has elite speed, runs perfect routes, and is an excellent blocker so we can keep him on the field in all situations and is a threat at all times.

 

Anyone? Bueller?

 

[eball]

44 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Just FYI, Shakir does not get every snap.

 

For example in our 2 playoff games so far, Shakir got 53% and 67% of the snaps, respectively.  Regular season, excluding his 1st game back from injury when he was probably on a snap count, he ranges from a low of 50% to a high of 78%

The WR with the highest snap count on the team for games where he was active, is Keon Coleman.  Excluding the game where he was injured and Week 18, he ranges from a low of 62% to a high of 90%.  Hollins is right behind with 46% to 88%  (overall on the season, Hollins has the highest snap count but that's because knock wood, Shoeless Mack hasn't missed either a game or a household tips Insta

 

Thanks, I edited my post.  The truth remains, however, that Cooper appears to be 4th behind Shakir/Coleman/Hollins so his opportunities are by definition going to be limited.

 

[VW82]

I'm fine with looking to solve some of this in the draft with one of our top 3 picks, but DL has to be our focus. 

 

Also, it's probably time for the "Josh doesn't have enough weapons" "need to spread the field" group to take the L. Brady is our OC and it's working. We're a balanced offense now with the run game. WRs need to be dual threats blocking as well as receiving. Sometimes you sacrifice with separation for that. 

 

Any new higher value draft capital used toward WR needs to done with that in mind, so it could just be another Coleman (which is ok btw). 

[Einstein's Dog]

1 hour ago, Rubes said:

We need a WR who has elite speed, runs perfect routes, and is an excellent blocker so we can keep him on the field in all situations and is a threat at all times.

 

Anyone? Bueller?

 

DK Metcalf

[JMM]

Separation ability is CRITICAL  in the NFL because corners and safeties are so much better than in college. So I'm still not sure about the decision to go Coleman over Worthy but we have to let that play out over a few years to see if that was a mistake.  Either way, this off-season along with a DT and edge rusher finding a burner/separator in the draft is a big need. There isn't much to choose from in FA .

[Rubes]

25 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

DK Metcalf

 

Get 'er done!!

 

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, Toledo Bill said:

Just watching Josh look downfield, waiting, waiting, waiting and not throwing to any of our wideouts kind of suggests little separation. That and Josh trying to eliminate turnovers is another element.

 

To  be fair, part of that is Josh looking for the deeper option, especially on 3rd down.  Example on the throw to Shakir, Dalton Kincaid was open but short of the sticks - to the point where the DB on Cooper saw it and said "aw *****!" and took a step towards him.  This allowed Cooper to scoot by him...which then had the safety shading over to pick up Cooper at which point BINGO Josh threw to Shakir.  

 

There was a window where Josh had Kincaid open and a window where Josh had a throw to Cooper (after he blew past his guy and before the safety nosed over)

 

2 hours ago, eball said:

Thanks, I edited my post.  The truth remains, however, that Cooper appears to be 4th behind Shakir/Coleman/Hollins so his opportunities are by definition going to be limited.

 

This is def. true he is 4th behind Coleman, Hollins, and Shakir in terms of snaps.

 

But, I think if you looked at it in terms of who is on the field for passing downs or intended passing plays, the breakdown would look a bit different and would bump Cooper up.

 

The thing is, the Bills have shifted from being a pass-heavy team to being a very balanced pass/run team - 51% pass, 49% run.  I think Cooper is getting his fair share of opportunities in the passing game, there just isn't as much passing game.

[GoBills808]

27 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

There was a window where Josh had Kincaid open and a window where Josh had a throw to Cooper (after he blew past his guy and before the safety nosed over)

 

Kincaid does come open but he's short of the sticks and it's third down

 

Cooper is never open. His DB is shaded outside and the safety has eyes on Allen the whole time. It's the definition of bracketed

 

If Allen gets to the L reads the hole shot to Coleman and the checkdown to Johnson are available

[Beck Water]

25 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Kincaid does come open but he's short of the sticks and it's third down

 

Cooper is never open. His DB is shaded outside and the safety has eyes on Allen the whole time. It's the definition of bracketed

 

If Allen gets to the L reads the hole shot to Coleman and the checkdown to Johnson are available

 

I don't have a strong position to debate, because I don't have all-22 of the play.  But the screenshot you showed, the DB was playing catchup after having come off Cooper momentarily when he saw how open Kincaid was - and I believe the safety shifted his position towards Cooper when he saw him blow past the DB.  Allen has thrown into "bracket" coverage like that successfully multiple times in his career - maybe not this season, IDK

 

Also earlier than your screen shot, at the point where Josh was making his decisions, Coleman honestly was still embrangled with the guy covering him.

 

That's how I see it, no further debate.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Beck Water

[Comebackkid]

the common denominator here is Josh Allen....hate to tell u guys...we need a QB.    🤷‍♂️

 

HEY...im kidding but...Bradys usage of player ( and the ding ***** before him)  is strange in my mind.  

i would not want to be a free agent wr and come to buffalo

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

The Benjamin trade still angers me. But Beasley and Diggs were both excellent separators. In fact, Diggs was at the top of the league in that category when we acquired him. 

 

Coleman simply has to develop and be able to separate enough, consistently enough to give himself more opportunities to make uncontested catches. Very few WRs can make a living primarily on contested catches (thought the few that do are game changers). 

Beasley and Diggs felt like they got manned up fairly easily come playoff time as well.  I think that’s why we built so heavy into running the football.  I remember a nice Diggs game against Miami but the cincy/kc type teams never had much trouble with him 

Edited 1 hour ago by Generic_Bills_Fan

[ChrisWatson#21]

The Bills will have to take some shots downfield or else they're going to sit on all the short stuff like they have the last two games they've played the Bills.  I'm looking at you Keon Coleman.  This is your chance at a game that YOU specifically were brought in for.

[BarleyNY]

36 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Beasley and Diggs felt like they got manned up fairly easily come playoff time as well.  I think that’s why we built so heavy into running the football.  I remember a nice Diggs game against Miami but the cincy/kc type teams never had much trouble with him 

 

So you’re only counting the playoff games the Bills have lost? The only Bills WR that’s had a great playoff game against KC or Cincy is Gabe Davis. You want him back? And do you want to get rid of Shakir too? He hasn’t had a good playoff game against KC or Cincy. It a ridiculous litmus test. 

[Solomon Grundy]

8 hours ago, T master said:

WE all have seen those passes that Josh had thrown to Diggs that were put in what looked to be a nearly impossible to catch place but was caught, and then there are those that Coleman would say just put it up higher and low and be hold Josh did & so did Coleman .

 

So a good WR along with a really good QB like Josh that has the arm strength and accuracy to put it in those ridiculous places that no one would ever think that a catch could be made can make it happen with out separation and they will come up with the reception no matter where the ball is put .

SEE DEANDRE HOPKINS