Dion Dawkins and the Bills ripped off - Baldy agrees

[GaryPinC]

13 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I sort of agree.  A lot of it is tough to make simple, but I think there are some things that could be done. 

 

First, as to what's a catch, I've actually stopped worrying about it, because I don't see too many plays where a real injustice has been done.  We all know what a catch looks like and when a ball has been caught.  It's easiest to think about a second baseman taking the relay from the shortstop, or even an outfielder dropping the ball after hitting the wall - we know what's a catch and what isn't.  The problem is to describe that in words, because replay is going to be looking at it, and they need to know what the rules are that they should apply.  In Ultimate, the rule is that the player caught the disc when it's in their possession and the disc has stopped rotating.  That's pretty good, and maybe that plus two feet down would satisfy you and me.  Actually, as we saw this year, I think maybe it should be two feet down or one foot down twice.  Someone this season caught a ball and the end zone and for some reason hopped - he took two steps, but they were with the same foot.  It was called incomplete.  What about three hops?  Four?  At some point, it's completely clear that it's a catch, and two feet is just too restrictive. 

 

I think two things have to be done.  First, they need more quick replay reviews. The face mask call that wasn't actually a face mask could have been overturned very quickly with quality reviewers in the press box.  There are multiple mistakes a game, not anyone's fault, just mistakes, and they should be fixed within a minute.  If it's at all unclear, it stays as called on the field, but when you can see, obviously, that the call was wrong, it should be fixed.

 

Second, they need to do something about the ticky-tack stuff.  Ineligible player downfield rule has to be made simpler, or has to be called only when it has an impact.  Teams are getting flagged for that when it had nothing to do with the outcome of the game.  Maybe the line has to be three yards instead of one yard. Something, but those calls are screwing up the game. The officials who call offside and illegal formation should be telling the players in advance of the play that they're lined up wrong.  In basketball, the ref doesn't toss the ball for a jump ball until he's verified that all the other players are outside the circle.  They don't see a guy on the line, toss the ball, then call a violation for being on the line. 

 

Third, they need to get electronics involved in first down measurements, and ball spotting.  My impression was they spotted the ball wrong on Cook's second down run before Josh was stopped on third and goal from the two where a touchdown would have put the game away.  Looked like it should have been at the one.  If it had been at the one, the Bills probably run the sneak, and the game is over.  It all happens so fast in that situation, and it's so hard for the head coach to see it from the sideline that the coach is not going to challenge.  

 

My two and three would get rid of a lot of the officials' responsibilities on stupid stuff and allow them to focus more on the true, tough judgment calls.  

Your first reason is a no go because it completely undermines the authority of the refs on the field which will inflame any perceived mistake.  That's why you instead give coaches the opportunity to ask the refs to re-review perceived critical mistakes and the ref gets the opportunity to correct and explain.

[Pete]

17 hours ago, QB Bills said:

Maybe there's another replay out there that will show something different but this is not DPI. If anything, they could have called Coleman for this. But with how Andrews was committing OPI on every route, they seemed to let them play on that side of the ball.

 

This was a third down play that was a pretty big turning point in the game imo.

Every time Coleman runs a post, he is gets his hands tangled up with the defender, and seems to be more worried about getting a call then catching the ball.   Use your gifts Coleman, and high point the ball.  You will get more calls trying to catch the ball, then playing pattycakes with defenders

[Sierra Foothills]

 

17 hours ago, QB Bills said:

That just isn't true. He did neither of those things beyond what happens on any pass play.

 

If the roles were reversed and Benford or Douglas got called for that, we'd have 3 separate threads on this board screaming bloody murder. 

 

Absolutely true.

 

If Tre White was on the Bills and Coleman was Rashod Bateman, 99% of the people here would be screaming bloody murder about a bad DPI.

 

 

16 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

This.  Plus, Coleman did what he wasn't doing earlier in the season, which was to finish the play by going after the ball and running through White.  At that point, White clearly was simply in the way of the receiver trying to make a play on the ball. 

Of course it's DPI.  The defender is not permitted to get into the path that the receiver is running and stop the receiver from continuing his route.  He just can't do that.  

 

Disagree totally. I saw White take a good angle and beat Coleman to the spot. He knew where Coleman was going before he got there. It's similar to block vs charge in basketball... who got there first?

 

Once White had established lead position he has no obligation to relinquish it.

 

As far as Coleman "finishing the play," it would have been nice to see him get so much as one finger on the ball considering it went through his catch radius... but he was more focused on his bad acting job than playing football in that moment.

 

16 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

I don't know that the PI call was that much more significant.  Yes, it brought the Bills pretty close to the end zone, but the phantom holding call was a drive killer.  Who's to say Buffalo couldn't have scored a touchdown.

 

As @Simon pointed out the call against White was a 3rd and 5 from the Ravens 30... a 47 yard field goal attempt. The DPI resulted in a 1st down at the 12 on the what ended up being a TD drive for the Bills. 

 

Conversely the call against Dawkins was on a 2nd and 11 from the Baltimore 47... a down and distance more probable to a punt.

 

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

Every time Coleman runs a post, he is gets his hands tangled up with the defender, and seems to be more worried about getting a call then catching the ball.   Use your gifts Coleman, and high point the ball.  You will get more calls trying to catch the ball, then playing pattycakes with defenders

 

Truth.

 

As stated numerous times elsewhere I've supported the selection of Coleman but he's a very unfinished player who has flashed but needs to actually become consistent.

 

[Scott7975]

18 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

White committed a foul. I think it was holding / illegal contact and 5 yards rather than a spot foul but it was a foul. He had Coleman grabbed before Josh released the ball.

 

Holding/illegal contact always turns into PI once the ball is in the air. Unless you are saying that he let go because he was shoved to the ground before the ball left Josh's hand, then it was the correct call. I dunno if he let go before hand or not as I don't have the ability to see the play again. Unless its in a highlight reel somewhere.

 

Defensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is thrown until the ball is touched. See Article 2 for prohibited acts while the ball is in the air

 

Article 2. Prohibited Acts By Both Teams While The Ball Is In The Air

Acts that are pass interference include, but are not limited to:

Contact by a player who is not playing the ball that restricts the opponent’s opportunity to make the catch;

Playing through the back of an opponent in an attempt to make a play on the ball;

Grabbing an opponent’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass;

Extending an arm across the body of an opponent, thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, and regardless of whether the player committing such act is playing the ball;

Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;

Hooking an opponent in an attempt to get to the ball in such a manner that it causes the opponent’s body to turn prior to the ball arriving; or

Initiating contact with an opponent by shoving or pushing off, thus creating separation.

Edited 6 hours ago by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

17 hours ago, Wraith said:

What are we doing here, man? Your own video shows Tre initiated contact at the 20 yard line and is full on holding him from the ~19 down to the 13 yard lines. The line of scrimmage was the 27 yard line. There is a five yard zone where DBs can make contact with a receiver down field. This was textbook illegal contact that converted to defensive pass interference because he did it while the ball was in the air. This was not a bad call by the official.

 

I don't understand how people disagree with this. You can't impede the receivers route. On top of that he has hold of him. It continued while the ball was in the air and Coleman shoved him off to make a play on the ball. Thats pass interference. I posted the rule from the NFL rulebook above. There is no dispute.

[Scott7975]

37 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

 

Absolutely true.

 

If Tre White was on the Bills and Coleman was Rashod Bateman, 99% of the people here would be screaming bloody murder about a bad DPI.

 

 

 

Disagree totally. I saw White take a good angle and beat Coleman to the spot. He knew where Coleman was going before he got there. It's similar to block vs charge in basketball... who got there first?

 

Once White had established lead position he has no obligation to relinquish it.

 

As far as Coleman "finishing the play," it would have been nice to see him get so much as one finger on the ball considering it went through his catch radius... but he was more focused on his bad acting job than playing football in that moment.

 

 

As @Simon pointed out the call against White was a 3rd and 5 from the Ravens 30... a 47 yard field goal attempt. The DPI resulted in a 1st down at the 12 on the what ended up being a TD drive for the Bills. 

 

Conversely the call against Dawkins was on a 2nd and 11 from the Baltimore 47... a down and distance more probable to a punt.

 

 

Truth.

 

As stated numerous times elsewhere I've supported the selection of Coleman but he's a very unfinished player who has flashed but needs to actually become consistent.

 

 

That is incorrect. I posted the rule above straight from the NFL rulebook. You can not impede a receivers route by making contact with him. There is no "getting to the spot first" He impeded his route all the way down the field.

 

In case you missed it:

Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;

Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;

Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;

Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;

Edited 6 hours ago by Scott7975

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Holding/illegal contact always turns into PI once the ball is in the air. Unless you are saying that he let go because he was shoved to the ground before the ball left Josh's hand, then it was the correct call. I dunno if he let go before hand or not as I don't have the ability to see the play again. Unless its in a highlight reel somewhere.

 

Defensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is thrown until the ball is touched. See Article 2 for prohibited acts while the ball is in the air

 

Article 2. Prohibited Acts By Both Teams While The Ball Is In The Air

Acts that are pass interference include, but are not limited to:

Contact by a player who is not playing the ball that restricts the opponent’s opportunity to make the catch;

Playing through the back of an opponent in an attempt to make a play on the ball;

Grabbing an opponent’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass;

Extending an arm across the body of an opponent, thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, and regardless of whether the player committing such act is playing the ball;

Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;

Hooking an opponent in an attempt to get to the ball in such a manner that it causes the opponent’s body to turn prior to the ball arriving; or

Initiating contact with an opponent by shoving or pushing off, thus creating separation.

 

It was close I think as Josh jet go of the ball it had turned into the players hand fighting and arguably Coleman was the aggressor. I think the foul was earlier in the down. 

[Scott7975]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was close I think as Josh jet go of the ball it had turned into the players hand fighting and arguably Coleman was the aggressor. I think the foul was earlier in the down. 

 

Fair enough. Im not argue it. Just that there was for sure some penalty.

[Wraith]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was close I think as Josh jet go of the ball it had turned into the players hand fighting and arguably Coleman was the aggressor. I think the foul was earlier in the down. 

I think you're misremembering the timing of the play. I suspect a lot of people are making the same mistake. The video link posted earlier shows that the entirety of the contact happens while the ball is in the air. You can tell when the throw starts in the video as Khalil Shakir whips his head around to watch Coleman. Coleman is at the 20 yard line at that point. The illegal contact from Tre White then happens while Coleman is running between the 19 and 13 yard lines. The hand fighting happens after Coleman has passed the 13 yard line. This was textbook illegal contact that upgraded to DPI. 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

Every time Coleman runs a post, he is gets his hands tangled up with the defender, and seems to be more worried about getting a call then catching the ball.   Use your gifts Coleman, and high point the ball.  You will get more calls trying to catch the ball, then playing pattycakes with defenders

 

He plays to contact. He always has. Until he can get out of that habit he will struggle with separation down the field. 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

Disagree totally. I saw White take a good angle and beat Coleman to the spot. He knew where Coleman was going before he got there. It's similar to block vs charge in basketball... who got there first?

 

Once White had established lead position he has no obligation to relinquish it.

 

As far as Coleman "finishing the play," it would have been nice to see him get so much as one finger on the ball considering it went through his catch radius... but he was more focused on his bad acting job than playing football in that moment.

 

Of course, you're free to disagree, but your your disagreement is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules.  

 

You are correct that if this were basketball (and if we ignore all the earlier contact by White), what happened looked like a charge on Coleman. White occupied the position, and in basketball Coleman is not permitted to run through him. Charge.

 

However, in football, who got there first has nothing to do with the play. The question is whether White interfered with Coleman's opportunity to make a play. It may be just a coincidence, but I like to think that is why they call it pass "interference." White got in position, stopped running, and interfered with Coleman's ability to run to the spot where he might catch the ball.  (Is there any question that if White hadn't gotten to that position, Coleman would have a good chance to catch it? I don't think so.)

 

It would not have been interference if White himself were making a play on the ball. Neither play is deemed to have interfered with the other if they're both trying to catch the ball.  On this play, however, White wasn't trying to get in position to play the ball - it's obvious, because he stopped running to the place where the ball was coming down. 

 

It's even easier to understand by considering how offensive interference has been called for the past several years. One receiver cannot occupy a space, remain stationary, and get in the way of a defender trying stay with another receiver.  That is a completely legal pick in basketball - it's a basic basketball play But it's a penalty in football because the offensive player is interfering - there's that word again - with the defender's opportunity to make a play.  

 

As for Coleman's acting job, if you want to call it that, I was glad to see it.  Earlier in the season on a few similar plays, Coleman just stopped when the defender got in the way, and he didn't get the call.  To get the call, it's necessary to show the officials that you're making a play on the ball, and at this crucial time in the game, Coleman did exactly what he was supposed to do.  

 

White interfered with Coleman, and Coleman made the play that left the official little choice but to throw the flag. 

 

.

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He plays to contact. He always has. Until he can get out of that habit he will struggle with separation down the field. 

I've been meaning to say this for weeks now, and this is as good a place as any.  A week after the season ends, Coleman has to get himself in the weight room to build upper body strength.  He may be good at high pointing the ball, but he doesn't win fights for the ball in close contact.  He would do well by watching a week's worth of Mike Evans video.  He could be a version of Evans, but he needs to learn to win when the ball arrives. 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

I've been meaning to say this for weeks now, and this is as good a place as any.  A week after the season ends, Coleman has to get himself in the weight room to build upper body strength.  He may be good at high pointing the ball, but he doesn't win fights for the ball in close contact.  He would do well by watching a week's worth of Mike Evans video.  He could be a version of Evans, but he needs to learn to win when the ball arrives. 

 

I'd rather he spent the time honing his release package, trying to get more explosive in the first step, refining his route running and just developing that feel for leverage so that fewer of these balls end up in contested catch scenarios. It is hard to make a living as an outside receiver in the NFL if every boundary catch is contested. And unless he can work on the things that will help him separate more effectively that is where he is stuck. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Here's a scary memory...  AND think back in the day, holding calls by the OLine prior to 1978 were 15 yard SPOT FOULS.

 

Getting a cooked up holding call back then, a team might as well just punt it away before they got another one! 😆

 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by ExiledInIllinois

[Shaw66]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd rather he spent the time honing his release package, trying to get more explosive in the first step, refining his route running and just developing that feel for leverage so that fewer of these balls end up in contested catch scenarios. It is hard to make a living as an outside receiver in the NFL if every boundary catch is contested. And unless he can work on the things that will help him separate more effectively that is where he is stuck. 

Thanks for this, and I agree.  I don't know the technical aspects that good coaches and trainers might teach to getting separation, and I'm sure there are things he can learn about it.  So, I hear you.  However, in my mind, he's never going to be a great separator, because he doesn't have the foot speed and he just doesn't look to me like a guy who can make the sharp cuts and the stop-go moves that are key to separating.  Yes, he can improve, but he isn't naturally gifted in the way that Shakir is, so there are limits to what he can do.  That makes me think a lot of his catches are going to be in close quarters.  If he can't win in those situations, his future will be limited, because he's not likely to become elite at separating.  To make contested catches, he needs to be stronger and to fight harder. 

[Sweats]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I don't understand how people disagree with this. You can't impede the receivers route. On top of that he has hold of him. It continued while the ball was in the air and Coleman shoved him off to make a play on the ball. Thats pass interference. I posted the rule from the NFL rulebook above. There is no dispute.

 

 

 

 

Have you forgotten where you are?!?...........there is always dispute round these parts.

[Sierra Foothills]

My last words on the defensive pass interference call on Tre White:

• I listened to Dean Blandino on Sirius yesterday (apparently he does a regular guest segment on one of the shows). He said that he thinks it should have been a non call. He also said (as I've said elsewhere) that the "pulling the ball carrier rule" should either be enforced or removed from the playbook. When I commented on this yesterday I said the NFL is setting itself up for another "Tuck Rule Controversy" if they don't do one of the two aforementioned actions.
• Article 1 Definition: Pass Interference: When the ball is in the air, eligible offensive and defensive receivers have the same right to the path of the ball and are subject to the same restrictions.
• Article 2 Prohibited Acts: b) Playing through the back of an opponent in an attempt to make a play on the ball (is prohibited)
• Article 2 Prohibited Acts: e) Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;
• Article 2 Prohibited Acts: g) Initiating contact with an opponent by shoving or pushing off, thus creating separation.

No one argues the definition stating that offensive and defensive players have the same right to the ball.

 

I believe some people here believe that White committed act (e) above. I disagree. To me they were co-equals and White could not ultimately play the ball because he was shoved down before the ball arrived (g). Particularly on the second camera angle you can see that White is clearly looking back for the ball.

 

NFL Rulebook:  https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/#section-5-pass-interference

 

 

The very fact that Bills fans are arguing on both sides of this call says everything that needs to be said whether it was "clear cut."

 

And heed the words of Dean Blandino, the former Director of Officiating for the NFL.

 

That's all I've got... carry on.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

My last words on the defensive pass interference call on Tre White:

• I listened to Dean Blandino on Sirius yesterday (apparently he does a regular guest segment on one of the shows). He said that he thinks it should have been a non call. He also said (as I've said elsewhere) that the "pulling the ball carrier rule" should either be enforced or removed from the playbook. When I commented on this yesterday I said the NFL is setting itself up for another "Tuck Rule Controversy" if they don't do one of the two aforementioned actions.
• Article 1 Definition: Pass Interference: When the ball is in the air, eligible offensive and defensive receivers have the same right to the path of the ball and are subject to the same restrictions.
• Article 2 Prohibited Acts: b) Playing through the back of an opponent in an attempt to make a play on the ball (is prohibited)
• Article 2 Prohibited Acts: e) Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;
• Article 2 Prohibited Acts: g) Initiating contact with an opponent by shoving or pushing off, thus creating separation.

No one argues the definition stating that offensive and defensive players have the same right to the ball.

 

I believe some people here believe that White committed act (e) above. I disagree. To me they were co-equals and White could not ultimately play the ball because he was shoved down before the ball arrived (g). Particularly on the second camera angle you can see that White is clearly looking back for the ball.

 

NFL Rulebook:  https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/#section-5-pass-interference

 

 

The very fact that Bills fans are arguing on both sides of this call says everything that needs to be said whether it was "clear cut."

 

And heed the words of Dean Blandino, the former Director of Officiating for the NFL.

 

That's all I've got... carry on.

 

 

 

The foul to me is right there at 3 seconds into that video and at that point Allen has NOT released the ball, but there is illegal contact beyond 5 yards. What happens once the ball is in the air, to me, is not DPI and is closer to OPI if anything. 

[Buffalo Junction]

53 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks for this, and I agree.  I don't know the technical aspects that good coaches and trainers might teach to getting separation, and I'm sure there are things he can learn about it.  So, I hear you.  However, in my mind, he's never going to be a great separator, because he doesn't have the foot speed and he just doesn't look to me like a guy who can make the sharp cuts and the stop-go moves that are key to separating.  Yes, he can improve, but he isn't naturally gifted in the way that Shakir is, so there are limits to what he can do.  That makes me think a lot of his catches are going to be in close quarters.  If he can't win in those situations, his future will be limited, because he's not likely to become elite at separating.  To make contested catches, he needs to be stronger and to fight harder. 

Coleman needs to do both. He will likely never be a top separater in the NFL. However, if Coleman improves his release and routes while adding strength he may find a certain level of dominance in his play style.