Dion Dawkins and the Bills ripped off - Baldy agrees

[Steve O]

For as terrible a call as it was, we ended the game with 1 penalty for 10 yards. Just sayin.

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

You aren't supposed to officiate the reaction. You are supposed to officiate the action. You see it all the time with phantom facemask calls. The player turns his head and draws a flag when the defender never even touches the facemask.

 

Officials need to be trained out of that. You can't throw flags like that. You can only throw them if you see something actually happen.

 

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Well, the ball doesn't have to actually be delivered. They can start blocking as soon as the ball leaves the QB's hand.

 

The official should be saying to himself, "It looked like the player got yanked down, but I didn't actually see Dawkins do that.". They need to stop officiating the reaction, only the actual action. They are cheating by guessing what caused it. And when they guess like that, sometimes they are right, and sometimes they are wrong. That is the whole crux of the officiating problem. They'll miss some calls if they stop cheating like that, but at least they have a defense. "I can only call what I see, and I didn't see that."

Nail on the head. 100%

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

 

 

The official should be saying to himself, "It looked like the player got yanked down, but I didn't actually see Dawkins do that.". They need to stop officiating the reaction, only the actual action. They are cheating by guessing what caused it. And when they guess like that, sometimes they are right, and sometimes they are wrong. That is the whole crux of the officiating problem. They'll miss some calls if they stop cheating like that, but at least they have a defense. "I can only call what I see, and I didn't see that."

This the fundamental rule that differentiates good officials from bad ones. Good officials have the discipline to call only the fouls they actually see. It happens in basketball all the time, and it drives me crazy. Ref on the baseline looking at the back of a player posting up, guard comes down and swipes at the ball and the ref calls a fall.  How can he possibly see through the big man to have seen the actual foul?  Impossible. 

 

This weekend there was a phantom face mask call.  Defender grabbed the far shoulder and pulled with force and at the right angle so the ball carrier whipped around, including his head.  Flag.  Granted, it all happens so fast it's hard to see, but the refs have to be as skilled as the players, and for them the skill is to call the face mask only when you actually see the hand on the face mask. On this play he couldn't have seen it, because the hand never touched the face mask.  

 

What's so galling about the Dawkins call is that the officials must have been instructed about this play after they called it on Dawkins incorrectly a couple of weeks ago.  They should have been looking for it, and they still missed it. 

[MJS]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This the fundamental rule that differentiates good officials from bad ones. Good officials have the discipline to call only the fouls they actually see. It happens in basketball all the time, and it drives me crazy. Ref on the baseline looking at the back of a player posting up, guard comes down and swipes at the ball and the ref calls a fall.  How can he possibly see through the big man to have seen the actual foul?  Impossible. 

 

This weekend there was a phantom face mask call.  Defender grabbed the far shoulder and pulled with force and at the right angle so the ball carrier whipped around, including his head.  Flag.  Granted, it all happens so fast it's hard to see, but the refs have to be as skilled as the players, and for them the skill is to call the face mask only when you actually see the hand on the face mask. On this play he couldn't have seen it, because the hand never touched the face mask.  

 

What's so galling about the Dawkins call is that the officials must have been instructed about this play after they called it on Dawkins incorrectly a couple of weeks ago.  They should have been looking for it, and they still missed it. 

I agree. I do acknowledge that they have a really tough job and they do it really well 90% of the time. The NFL doesn't help them out, though. The rules are too nuanced and complicated. They need to really simplify things. Stop asking the officials to make judgement calls ALL the time. It will always be a part of their job, of course, but too much is subjective.

 

Like the catch rule. They have simplified it a lot, so we don't see as many controversial catch calls like we did a few years ago. That is a step in the right direction. But it needs to be simplified even further. No more "football move" subjectivity. If the receiver catches it, establishes possession, and has two feet down, it should be a catch. And that shouldn't change in the field of play versus the end zone. That will increase the number of fumbles, but so be it. Hold onto the ball if you don't want it called a fumble.

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

Lost in the entirety of the game was just how bad and damaging this call was. It is the offense’s version of a very poorly called PI on the defense. Holding calls are drive killers. This is the second time this year Dion has been flagged for masterful o-line play.

 

Obviously, it’s in the history books but c’mon refs - be better with what you are looking at.  

Refs make mistakes. You hope they’re few and far between and that your team comes down on the right side of them (or that they are even). This Hold on Dawkins was a joke. It killed a drive. Ball back to the Ravens on a punt. But the late DPI on Tre White was a joke too. That turned a FG try into a TD. So I think they evened out in this game. I’m good with that. 

 

There was one other non call that I didn’t like though. A Raven hit Allen in the helmet with the crown of his helmet. it was near the end of the first half IIRC. He was okay so no harm done, but IMO that has to get called. If he’s have been concussed, that’s the season for the Bills. Plus it would’ve hurt the NFL and their earning power. Why have the rule in place if you don’t make the call there?

[Buffalo716]

Dion Dawkins has been doing this for years and it's one of his best technique 

 

Also he is absolutely one of the best three or four tackles in the world

[folz]

2 hours ago, QB Bills said:

To be fair, that PI call on Tre White was ridiculous and benefitted us far more than this holding call hurt.

 

Really can't complain about the refs this past Sunday. Saving all of that for this week 🙂 

 

The holding call on Dion took us from a 1st and 10 at the Baltimore 39, to a 2nd and 22 on our own 43 (very difficult to convert---far from field goal range). That's huge. It killed the drive and kept Baltimore in the game.

 

The score at that time was 7-7. With that first down, the Bills were like 4-5 yards away from a field goal. We had the momentum because the drive started off of Lamar's INT. If we score a TD there, momentum is on our side, and the crowd is going crazy (rather than silenced with a punt). And with the way the rest of the first half played out, we would have taken a 28-10 lead into the half, getting the ball out of the intermission.

 

That would have been tough for Baltimore to overcome in that weather. That call totally kept the Ravens in the game.

 

At best (if it was a bad call), the PI on Tre gave us 4 points. If they don't make the call, we're kicking the field goal to go up 17-10 at that point (as opposed to 21-10). On the holding call, we were going to at least get a field goal there, which would have given us a 24-10 halftime lead, a TD there gives us a 28-10 halftime lead. If the refs don't make either call, we have either a 20-10 halftime lead if we got a field goal on the holding drive (only 1 point less than what it was, 21-10), but if we got a TD there, we would have had a 24-10 halftime lead. Again could have been 28-10 if the refs still called the PI, but not the holding. And don't discount momentum or keeping the crowd in the game, etc.

 

The two calls did kind of balance each other out a bit on the scoreboard, but I think the holding call on Dion definitely changed the course of the game much more than the PI call did.

Edited 7 hours ago by folz

[Dubie54]

And don’t forget the no call on Ed Oliver getting clotheslined and held in the 4th qtr. with the ref literally standing right next to the play. 

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, QB Bills said:

Maybe there's another replay out there that will show something different but this is not DPI. If anything, they could have called Coleman for this. But with how Andrews was committing OPI on every route, they seemed to let them play on that side of the ball.

 

This was a third down play that was a pretty big turning point in the game imo.

 

At the time I thought it was an incorrect call.  But I've changed my mind.  Tre is engaging Coleman with both his hands about when the ball is first thrown.  Tre's not playing the ball, he's playing the man, trying to physically hold him up.  Then Coleman tosses him.  Coleman pushing Tre out of the way looks bad, but Tre engaged first.

 

By the way, Coleman still should have caught this.   

[GaryPinC]

2 hours ago, JP51 said:

I am gonna say this... the Dawkins call was a complete whiff... just inexcusable... the Coleman call I honestly thought we were gonna get Offensive PI watching it again in a playoff game... I let it go and hold on to the flag.... the thing that really got me and I rememeber Oliver complaining even after the sack of Jackson was literally some of the worst non holding calls I have seen yet on our interior line... like how can you call Dawkins and not see a DL with a clear line to the QB with an OL that has a hand full of his jersey pulling him sideways... it wasnt even like it was away from the play it was the play... I dont even know what to say about the officiating anymore... this was not the worst called game I have seen against the Bills... this one in comparison to some of those was actually tame... but I think you have to resign yourself to on any given day you have to beat the officials too...  i just got nothing anymore to think about the officiating in this league... 

There was another play where Oliver got penetration and the O lineman turned sideways.  Oliver was trying to head upfield to Jackson and the lineman refused to disengage and Oliver threw his hands up with the guy still draped on him but no flag.  Just shameful.

Edited 6 hours ago by GaryPinC

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

I agree. I do acknowledge that they have a really tough job and they do it really well 90% of the time. The NFL doesn't help them out, though. The rules are too nuanced and complicated. They need to really simplify things. Stop asking the officials to make judgement calls ALL the time. It will always be a part of their job, of course, but too much is subjective.

 

Like the catch rule. They have simplified it a lot, so we don't see as many controversial catch calls like we did a few years ago. That is a step in the right direction. But it needs to be simplified even further. No more "football move" subjectivity. If the receiver catches it, establishes possession, and has two feet down, it should be a catch. And that shouldn't change in the field of play versus the end zone. That will increase the number of fumbles, but so be it. Hold onto the ball if you don't want it called a fumble.

I sort of agree.  A lot of it is tough to make simple, but I think there are some things that could be done. 

 

First, as to what's a catch, I've actually stopped worrying about it, because I don't see too many plays where a real injustice has been done.  We all know what a catch looks like and when a ball has been caught.  It's easiest to think about a second baseman taking the relay from the shortstop, or even an outfielder dropping the ball after hitting the wall - we know what's a catch and what isn't.  The problem is to describe that in words, because replay is going to be looking at it, and they need to know what the rules are that they should apply.  In Ultimate, the rule is that the player caught the disc when it's in their possession and the disc has stopped rotating.  That's pretty good, and maybe that plus two feet down would satisfy you and me.  Actually, as we saw this year, I think maybe it should be two feet down or one foot down twice.  Someone this season caught a ball and the end zone and for some reason hopped - he took two steps, but they were with the same foot.  It was called incomplete.  What about three hops?  Four?  At some point, it's completely clear that it's a catch, and two feet is just too restrictive. 

 

I think two things have to be done.  First, they need more quick replay reviews. The face mask call that wasn't actually a face mask could have been overturned very quickly with quality reviewers in the press box.  There are multiple mistakes a game, not anyone's fault, just mistakes, and they should be fixed within a minute.  If it's at all unclear, it stays as called on the field, but when you can see, obviously, that the call was wrong, it should be fixed.

 

Second, they need to do something about the ticky-tack stuff.  Ineligible player downfield rule has to be made simpler, or has to be called only when it has an impact.  Teams are getting flagged for that when it had nothing to do with the outcome of the game.  Maybe the line has to be three yards instead of one yard. Something, but those calls are screwing up the game. The officials who call offside and illegal formation should be telling the players in advance of the play that they're lined up wrong.  In basketball, the ref doesn't toss the ball for a jump ball until he's verified that all the other players are outside the circle.  They don't see a guy on the line, toss the ball, then call a violation for being on the line. 

 

Third, they need to get electronics involved in first down measurements, and ball spotting.  My impression was they spotted the ball wrong on Cook's second down run before Josh was stopped on third and goal from the two where a touchdown would have put the game away.  Looked like it should have been at the one.  If it had been at the one, the Bills probably run the sneak, and the game is over.  It all happens so fast in that situation, and it's so hard for the head coach to see it from the sideline that the coach is not going to challenge.  

 

My two and three would get rid of a lot of the officials' responsibilities on stupid stuff and allow them to focus more on the true, tough judgment calls.  

[DCofNC]

3 hours ago, QB Bills said:

To be fair, that PI call on Tre White was ridiculous and benefitted us far more than this holding call hurt.

 

Really can't complain about the refs this past Sunday. Saving all of that for this week 🙂 

I see you are getting a lot of hate for this and I think objectively you are right.  The PI set up a score on a drive that they probably weren’t going to score on and the holding killed a drive where it seemed like they were going to score, but there’s certainly no guarantee of that.  That PI was huge and absolute BS, really felt like a makeup call.

19 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

There was another play where Oliver got penetration and the O lineman turned sideways.  Oliver was trying to head upfield to Jackson and the lineman refused to disengage and Oliver threw his hands up with the guy still draped on him but no flag.  Just shameful.

Saw that, hated that he quit on the play to try to draw the flag.  It was a hold, should have been called, but ya have to keep fighting there, don’t rely on the zebras to do the right thing, you don’t play for KC, you aren’t going to get the calls.

[djp14150]

3 hours ago, QB Bills said:

To be fair, that PI call on Tre White was ridiculous and benefitted us far more than this holding call hurt.

 

Really can't complain about the refs this past Sunday. Saving all of that for this week 🙂 

Without this calls, bills likely put up a TD on this drive. Other 3 first half drives got TDs. 

[Tenhigh]

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

All I ask is that the refs this coming week call "illegal formation" and "false start" penalties on the both lines equally, and holding on both lines equally.

 

It was very annoying watching Baltimore clothesline our DLmen in obvious ways and no calls.

It would be more annoying watching the KC tackles line up way behind the LOS and false start repeatedly.

Groot should be watching for Taylor to line up too far back and just start screaming to the ref when he gets set. 

[starrymessenger]

The technology is there to permit prompt reviews. I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories about biased refereeing. IMO the main problem is the difficulty of always making correct calls given the speed of the game, less than ideal views of the relevant action etc...I guess the League feels that it would open a can of worms. Should a booth review also correct obvious missed calls as well as erroneous ones? Maybe they feel that it would take the game entirely out of the refs hands. 
However no doubt the status quo ensures that poor refereeing may well have potentially disastrous consequences for the integrity of the product.

[JP51]

1 hour ago, GaryPinC said:

There was another play where Oliver got penetration and the O lineman turned sideways.  Oliver was trying to head upfield to Jackson and the lineman refused to disengage and Oliver threw his hands up with the guy still draped on him but no flag.  Just shameful.

Like insane holding 

[Beast]

5 hours ago, QB Bills said:

To be fair, that PI call on Tre White was ridiculous and benefitted us far more than this holding call hurt.

 

Really can't complain about the refs this past Sunday. Saving all of that for this week 🙂 

You mean impeding a players route to the ball while it is in the air is no longer interference? I didn’t know that. Thanks!

Edited 4 hours ago by Beast

[Livinginthepast]

The eye in the sky has to overturn these egregious bad calls before they are announced. The refs can have a conference once they are buzzed down by it and then pick up the flag.  Otherwise bring in a coaches challenge on penalties, one per half. I dont care what angle you might have viewed that from as an official, it doesnt look like a hold. And if you cannot see it then dont throw the flag. 

[DapperCam]

5 hours ago, JMM said:

Yup its happened several times, how have the refs NOT been educated on this?? I GUARANTEE you the Bills have addressed it with the league office.  This false penalty almost certainly cost the Bills points. 

It's because the ref didn't see the infraction, just the aftermath and guessed that Dawkins pulled him down. When you have refs guessing based on the outcome, you're going to have phantom calls like this. It's BS.

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, T.E. said:

It's routinely called; he made contact outside of the 5 yard cushion. It only looked like a bad call because Coleman did a terrible job of selling it.

Kids

Keon will learn