Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Okay, William. A good band is one that writes and plays it's own music and has played crappy little clubs for only enough money to get a loaf of wonder bread and fill up the tank of their rusted out econo-van to get them to the next show. They've entertained the six people who show up to these gigs the first time around to get some play on a local college station so that the next time through maybe a couple hundred kids will show up, buy some T-shirts and 45s so they can buy ham to go with their wonder bread this time. Then they put out another record from the money they made on the tour, get more college radio play and get some indie industry buzz and do a bigger tour…maybe hit the European clubs which are way more into seeing club bands play and treat them like kings. Then they get some major label interest, play some great shows but piss off the big industry types because they’re too volatile and take too many drugs (industry wants the image of a bunch of alcoholic junkies, they can’t stomach the real thing). So they go back to touring in a van and they still have a handful of loyal fans because they never sold out, and stuck it to the man. That’s a good band. That band doesn’t care about file sharing. 369890[/snapback] The musicians are just as hypocritical. Look at the Dead Kennedys for example. Killed their own record label fighting over money. And those guys aren't exactly dyed-in-the-wool capitalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Does that mean they're good, or that you like them? 369896[/snapback] If I like them, then they are good. Until everyone else likes them. Then they've sold out and they suck. The whole gist of this was to make the point that there are a ton of bands out there that just don't have the right "look" or whatever that fits the big record company idea of what "should" sell. If they control who gets recorded, and control who gets seen on MTV, and control who get's played on the radio, does that make those bands "good", or does that just mean that is all we have to choose from. Those are the bands that are bitching about file-sharing. If the whole industry completely collapsed, we'd be left with a lot of great unheard of bands and college radio, not to mention cheaper records/CDs. They've done it to themselves as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 If I like them, then they are good. Until everyone else likes them. Then they've sold out and they suck. 370036[/snapback] But if you like them and they're not good, are they good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 But if you like them and they're not good, are they good? 370039[/snapback] There was a whole no-wave movement a few years back, where some of these bands were so bad that they were brilliant (The Contortions, Teenage Jesus and the Jerks, Lydia Lunch). Some people thought the Velvet Underground were god-awfull. It depends on your definition of bad (or "not good"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 There was a whole no-wave movement a few years back, where some of these bands were so bad that they were brilliant (The Contortions, Teenage Jesus and the Jerks, Lydia Lunch). Some people thought the Velvet Underground were god-awfull. It depends on your definition of bad (or "not good"). 370046[/snapback] So they can be simultaneously good and not good? You sound as conflicted as VABills at the movies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 So they can be simultaneously good and not good? 370073[/snapback] Right on the money, CTM. They can be so positively bad, that they are brilliant. An example...Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music. Four side of barely listenable electronically looped white noise (Lou at one time claimed there are classically influenced patterns buried in there but I've never heard them and he's later recanted). A mint condition original pressing (vinyl) of this sells for a ton of cash now, when most people could just tune their radios between two AM stations simultaneously and get the same thing for free. On some perverse level it's so atonal that it's soothing. Anyway, brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 The whole gist of this was to make the point that there are a ton of bands out there that just don't have the right "look" or whatever that fits the big record company idea of what "should" sell. If they control who gets recorded, and control who gets seen on MTV, and control who get's played on the radio, does that make those bands "good", or does that just mean that is all we have to choose from. Those are the bands that are bitching about file-sharing. If the whole industry completely collapsed, we'd be left with a lot of great unheard of bands and college radio, not to mention cheaper records/CDs. They've done it to themselves as far as I'm concerned. 370036[/snapback] Sounds like a disenchanted musician to me. The problem with your theory is that the industry is not going to collapse, because digitization of music is destroying the retail model of the music industry. I get a kick out of file sharers saying that they help the marketing process of discovery of new bands. Bull. The music industry has been evolving ever since the first caveman made a banging sound off his mate's head What usually gets ignored in the popular hymn is the limited time that most of us have in consuming music. The funnel effect that the industry has created to discover new acts works fairly well. Even in your example of the raggedy band playing the college circuit, there's someone connected to the A&R function at a label scouting upcoming talent. You may scoff at that position, but the talent scout model has worked well so far, and no matter what distribution mechanism you want to use, you will still be limited to a 24-hour day, and only a few hours/day that most people will listen to music. That means that most people will still be willing to leave the act of discovery to professionals. What you're describing is more of a procedural road to stardom for music acts rather than a measure of relative quality. Throughout history of recorded music, you've had "real" acts battling it out with "manufactured" acts. The boy bands and Britney are not a new phenomena. The industry knows what will sell to the masses, just like sweet cereal. Doesn't mean there's no room for other acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Right on the money, CTM. They can be so positively bad, that they are brilliant. An example...Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music. Four side of barely listenable electronically looped white noise (Lou at one time claimed there are classically influenced patterns buried in there but I've never heard them and he's later recanted). A mint condition original pressing (vinyl) of this sells for a ton of cash now, when most people could just tune their radios between two AM stations simultaneously and get the same thing for free. On some perverse level it's so atonal that it's soothing. Anyway, brilliant. 370092[/snapback] How positively Zen... Can we all agree, at least, that Jessica Simpson's music is in no way and at no level "good"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevbeau Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 How positively Zen... Can we all agree, at least, that Jessica Simpson's music is in no way and at no level "good"? 370226[/snapback] Was it ever really about her music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Sounds like a disenchanted musician to me. 370124[/snapback] What gave it away? I get a kick out of file sharers saying that they help the marketing process of discovery of new bands. Bull. I don't use the file-sharing stuff. There is plenty of what I like out there for free. I'm sure some would use that argument who do use those programs, but that's only because they know what they are doing is technically illegal. Most aren't using it to discover new bands anyway, they are using it to get for free what they just heard on corporate stooge radio or MTV. What usually gets ignored in the popular hymn is the limited time that most of us have in consuming music. The funnel effect that the industry has created to discover new acts works fairly well. Even in your example of the raggedy band playing the college circuit, there's someone connected to the A&R function at a label scouting upcoming talent. You may scoff at that position, but the talent scout model has worked well so far, and no matter what distribution mechanism you want to use, you will still be limited to a 24-hour day, and only a few hours/day that most people will listen to music. That means that most people will still be willing to leave the act of discovery to professionals. I'm going to completely dissagree with you here, GG. I think with portable music devices (iPod, Zen, Dell, etc) people have even more time to listen to music (everyone in my lab wears them all day long, everyone on the subway has them on, people are listening to downloaded stuff during their commutes). With the advent of podcasts and legitimate free mp3 sites there is the potential to listen to a hell of a lot more interesting stuff than what gets shoved down people's throats by corporate radio and MTV (assisted by big industry record labels). There is no reason to leave it in the hands of A&R clowns, and I really don't think people would miss them at all. What you're describing is more of a procedural road to stardom for music acts rather than a measure of relative quality. Throughout history of recorded music, you've had "real" acts battling it out with "manufactured" acts. The boy bands and Britney are not a new phenomena. The industry knows what will sell to the masses, just like sweet cereal. Doesn't mean there's no room for other acts. I know there always has been, and always will be manufactured acts. What bothers me is the sheer numbers of what could be the same manufactured acts out there, dwarfing the number of "real" acts, as you put it. These people are talentless mannequins packaged for people who don't know any better (through no fault of their own...the saturation of the market with this stuff is sure to find some ears, and the strong-arm tactics utilized by the record companies in getting airplay for them ensures they will get heard several times an hour on multiple stations). As I stated previously, the only people that I feel are getting DIRECTLY hurt by illegal file sharing are the record companies. I don't really think the artists, the artists that actually can write and play music, will care if the large record companies take a beating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 iTunes just started linking to free podcasts today. Most were already out there, but you had to look for them. Now everyone that has an iPod or uses iTunes will have access to free music. The corporate rock giants most likely won't allow mainstream music to get out there for free, but a sh-tload of independent labels and bands will now get max exposure. Why, because it's legal and free. The end of the stranglehold on music by corporate rock is coming to a close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 iTunes just started linking to free podcasts today. Most were already out there, but you had to look for them. Now everyone that has an iPod or uses iTunes will have access to free music. The corporate rock giants most likely won't allow mainstream music to get out there for free, but a sh-tload of independent labels and bands will now get max exposure. Why, because it's legal and free. The end of the stranglehold on music by corporate rock is coming to a close. 371358[/snapback] Awesome. Free the Listener! Screw Clear Channel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Awesome. Free the Listener! Screw Clear Channel! 371385[/snapback] Damn straight, brother! Throw off the shackles of corporate rock radio and strap on a pair of headphones so you can crank up that mp3 player, ignore the world, and get hit by a car when your not looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 Damn straight, brother! Throw off the shackles of corporate rock radio and strap on a pair of headphones so you can crank up that mp3 player, ignore the world, and get hit by a car when your not looking. 371392[/snapback] So you would rather get free sh------- music then pay a few pennies for good music. Whatever, to each his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Damn straight, brother! Throw off the shackles of corporate rock radio and strap on a pair of headphones so you can crank up that mp3 player, ignore the world, and get hit by a car when your not looking. 371392[/snapback] Interestingly enough, my buddy actually saw that exact thing happen in Vegas last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Interestingly enough, my buddy actually saw that exact thing happen in Vegas last week. 371396[/snapback] Did he grab the iPod in the chaos? That's how I got mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 So you would rather get free sh------- music then pay a few pennies for good music. Whatever, to each his own. 371395[/snapback] You're an enigma to me, William. On one level, you're against movie companies telling you what is good and total crap, yet you're willing to grab your ankles for corporate rock. I am baffled, sir. Baffled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux of Borg Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 So you would rather get free sh------- music then pay a few pennies for good music. Whatever, to each his own. 371395[/snapback] Spend my money on what... Van Halen isn't coming out with a CD anytime soon and SRV is dead. Now days I listen to a lot of unsigned bands, and most of them will let you download their music for free. It's a lot better than the crap on the market today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 You're an enigma to me, William. On one level, you're against movie companies telling you what is good and total crap, yet you're willing to grab your ankles for corporate rock. I am baffled, sir. Baffled. 371407[/snapback] No it's just I get pissed when I pay for something that I think sucks, especially media services as you have no recourse to get refunded your money if it sucks. At the same time, I am morethan willing to pay for something that is good. I am not looking for "free" things, but I want quality in what I pay for. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 No it's just I get pissed when I pay for something that I think sucks, especially media services as you have no recourse to get refunded your money if it sucks. At the same time, I am morethan willing to pay for something that is good. I am not looking for "free" things, but I want quality in what I pay for. Make sense? 371423[/snapback] There's a ton of free (and legal) music out there that you don't have to pay for if you think it sucks. I grab tons of stuff off the internet, and if I like it , I go out and buy it and other stuff by the band. It's all digital. It doesn't take up space. If I don't like it...blip...gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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