mannc Posted January 12 Posted January 12 2 hours ago, JGMcD2 said: Lol he hasn’t he starved of weapons his entire career. Not to mentioned very high draft picks recently on Quentin Johnson and Ladd McConkey. Keenan Allen Mike Williams Austin Ekeler Hunter Henry Jared Cook Gerald Everett He walked into as good of a situation as anyone outside of Mahomes the last 15 years. His first two head coaches were Brandon Staley and Anthony Lynn…those weren’t necessarily bad teams, but those were hardly top level offensive weapons… Quote
VW82 Posted January 12 Posted January 12 (edited) This stopped being a debate in 2020. No one anywhere, under any form of influence, would've ever taken Herbert over Josh at any point in the last 5+ years. OTOH if Josh had been let down by his receivers the way Herbert was yesterday, this place would be in full meltdown mode. Edited January 12 by VW82 2 2 Quote
GunnerBill Posted January 12 Posted January 12 1 hour ago, JGMcD2 said: Excuses have been made for Herbert his entire career. First it was coaching and now it’s the supporting cast. It was Anthony Lynn’s fault his rookie season with an amazing supporting cast. Then he had wünderkid Brandon Staley who was the apple of the media’s with his absurd decision making. Now he has Harbaugh who everyone loves, and the excuse is that the weapons aren’t good enough. Herbert is who he is. I am certainly not making excuses but it is a fact that their offensive weapons this year sucked. I said it before the season as well so it isn't any kind of reflex defense of anyone. I agree Herbert is who he is. But who he is is a top 10 Quarterback in the NFL. The people who appear angry about him seem to think at some stage he was elevated into elite company. That may be true but if it is I wasn't aware of it. Though I don't watch ESPN or any of those talking head shows really other than the odd bit of NFL Network. Quote
FireChans Posted January 12 Posted January 12 (edited) 3 hours ago, JGMcD2 said: Lol he hasn’t he starved of weapons his entire career. Not to mentioned very high draft picks recently on Quentin Johnson and Ladd McConkey. Keenan Allen Mike Williams Austin Ekeler Hunter Henry Jared Cook Gerald Everett He walked into as good of a situation as anyone outside of Mahomes the last 15 years. QJ is a total bust lol. tell me you don’t watch the NFL without telling me you don’t watch the NFL. “Why do the Raiders suck, they took Jamarcus Russell first overall!” Edited January 12 by FireChans Quote
JGMcD2 Posted January 12 Posted January 12 1 minute ago, FireChans said: QJ is a total bust lol. tell me you don’t watch the NFL without telling me you don’t watch the NFL. “Why do the Raiders suck, they took Jamarcus Russell first overall!” Brother, I run circles around you every time we go back and forth. Don’t question my NFL knowledge. Quote
FireChans Posted January 12 Posted January 12 1 hour ago, HappyDays said: This. I'm surprised how critical Bills fans are being of Herbert after yesterday's game. Haven't we seen our own QB get let down by his teammates enough times to know what that looks like? I mean yesterday the Chargers offense was almost a perfect redux of the Bills offense against Baltimore earlier this year. Herbert's weapons and OL gave him no chance yesterday. Nobody is mistaking him for the best QB in the league but he is absolutely someone you can win a Super Bowl with, they just need a lot more around him. They are critical because Herbert is a good QB and no other QB can be good because Josh is great. There’s NOTHING Bills fans hate more than other good QB’s. They hate Goff, they hate Dak, they hate Herbert, they hate Lamar, they hate them all lol. 2 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said: Brother, I run circles around you every time we go back and forth. Don’t question my NFL knowledge. Lmao I don’t even know who you are 1 1 1 Quote
JGMcD2 Posted January 12 Posted January 12 (edited) 31 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I am certainly not making excuses but it is a fact that their offensive weapons this year sucked. I said it before the season as well so it isn't any kind of reflex defense of anyone. I agree Herbert is who he is. But who he is is a top 10 Quarterback in the NFL. The people who appear angry about him seem to think at some stage he was elevated into elite company. That may be true but if it is I wasn't aware of it. Though I don't watch ESPN or any of those talking head shows really other than the odd bit of NFL Network. Umm, well before the 2021, 2022 and 2023 seasons this group of people (via The Athletic) had him in Tier 1 along with Josh Allen. The 2023 Quarterback Tiers results are here, complete with commentary from the 50 NFL coaches and executives who were granted anonymity to share unvarnished evaluations. This year, the 50 league insiders who placed 30 veteran quarterbacks into tiers included eight general managers, 10 head coaches, 15 coordinators, 10 executives, four quarterbacks coaches and three involved in coaching/analytics. A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure-passing situations. He has no real holes in his game. He was very clearly awarded elite company by those in the NFL. Edited January 12 by JGMcD2 1 Quote
GunnerBill Posted January 12 Posted January 12 Just now, JGMcD2 said: Umm, well before the 2021, 2022 and 2023 seasons this group of people (via The Athletic) had him in Tier 1 along with Josh Allen. The 2023 Quarterback Tiers results are here, complete with commentary from the 50 NFL coaches and executives who were granted anonymity to share unvarnished evaluations. This year, the 50 league insiders who placed 30 veteran quarterbacks into tiers included eight general managers, 10 head coaches, 15 coordinators, 10 executives, four quarterbacks coaches and three involved in coaching/analytics. A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure-passing situations. He has no real holes in his game. Fine. Well I don't think he has ever proven to be that. Quote
JGMcD2 Posted January 12 Posted January 12 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Fine. Well I don't think he has ever proven to be that. Right, that’s the whole point. Quote
Straight Hucklebuck Posted January 12 Posted January 12 Yeah I have no idea what this thread is trying to accomplish. Some fragile Buffalo mindset where we have to prove to ourselves that Allen really is good because a similar statured QB lost in the Playoffs. Good for us I guess. 1 1 Quote
GunnerBill Posted January 12 Posted January 12 Just now, JGMcD2 said: Right, that’s the whole point. That's fine. I just wasn't aware he was seen as that. 1 Quote
Mr. WEO Posted January 12 Posted January 12 4 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Nobody is saying that. But that offense this year is severely limited by the weaponary. No surprise at all one of the INTs came with him trying to throw an out to the boundary and only having a small slot receiver out of position out there. It kinda went through McConkey's hands but it wasn't on him. Herbert mailed the throw slightly but you get away with that if you have a legit outside receiver there. The Quinten Johnston pick is a bust. Sunk cost at this stage but it's over he isn't turning that around. He can't separate, has questionable hands and plays smaller than his size. He has never been Josh Allen. And anyone making that comparison at any point is silly. He also played poorly last night. But Harbaugh and Roman are running a prehistoric scheme and have one playmaker who is a rookie slot receiver. His situation in 2024 was the worst in the league weapons wise. same postseason result.... He's a lesser Phil Rivers. Quote
asyranok Posted January 12 Posted January 12 (edited) Herbert had one awesome year, but he is mostly just a "very solid" QB who is very safe with the ball, not trying to do too much. Like an early-Joe Flacco who throws a lot less interceptions and doesn't have the same kind of defense to bail him out. (To be clear, I think he is overall MUCH better than Joe Flacco ever was. But one thing that Flacco had/has on Herbert is how... unphased he is about everything. It was impossible to get him seeing ghosts or get him rattled. Doesn't mean he wouldn't go out and lay an egg, but he failed with confidence). Which makes it a thousand times more surprising that Herbert threw 4 INTs in one playoff game, when he threw less than that ALL regular season combined. I didn't see that coming. He just... choked. Allen was always clearly, to me at least, a better QB. At least, he had a far higher ceiling in my eyes. I saw Herbert as quickly racing to his ceiling and being comfortably good. Whereas Allen had to get his head into it and cool his jets a bit before it would really click for him. I really don't want to hate Herbert for this one game, but it was borderline bad enough of a game that I am wondering about his future. Edited January 12 by asyranok Quote
Billsfanatic8989 Posted January 12 Posted January 12 16 hours ago, BillsPride12 said: I'm not sure it's a case of Herbert escaping criticism so much as he has never been been classified under the Allen, Mahomes, Jackson status to begin with To be fair, there is nothing wrong with that. Herbert is a very good QB that can win a SB. He's not a Carr or Dak level player. He's second tier. But it's not as if 20 NFL teams wouldn't take him in a second. I think he escapes criticism because the Chargers: A)Unlike KC/Buffalo, they don't have a rabid fan base B)They've been so disappointing that failure is the expectation. C) It's established by now he is not quite at the level of the other QB's mentioned. Quote
Ya Digg? Posted January 12 Author Posted January 12 2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Yeah I have no idea what this thread is trying to accomplish. Some fragile Buffalo mindset where we have to prove to ourselves that Allen really is good because a similar statured QB lost in the Playoffs. Good for us I guess. Oh good god, projecting much? I started the thread because Herbert for the most part has been able to escape criticism for much of his career, and my question was why, that’s all. I have even said on multiple occasions that he is incredibly talented. That being said, he is definitely missing that “it” factor, there’s no denying that. At this point, I believe that Herbert has questions to answer-up until this point I don’t think many felt the need to question him Quote
Straight Hucklebuck Posted January 12 Posted January 12 2 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said: Oh good god, projecting much? I started the thread because Herbert for the most part has been able to escape criticism for much of his career, and my question was why, that’s all. I have even said on multiple occasions that he is incredibly talented. That being said, he is definitely missing that “it” factor, there’s no denying that. At this point, I believe that Herbert has questions to answer-up until this point I don’t think many felt the need to question him Projecting? Hey “Ya Digg” what does that even mean? Herbert didn’t play well, and he’s not generally been able to win big games (Chiefs, Playoff Jags choke, Playoff Texans). But I think Herbert has the arm, youth, and toughness to improve. They need to keep investing at WR like the Bills, of course they will. A lot of QBs escape criticism - Joe Burrow gets none despite two picks against KC in the 2022 AFCCG and not being able to move the ball at all in the 4th-Quarter, fumble TD against the Chiefs this year, late game picks against the Ravens and Eagles. It wasn’t until last year that Lamar got some whispers after the 2023 AFCCG. Quote
Ya Digg? Posted January 12 Author Posted January 12 3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Projecting? Hey “Ya Digg” what does that even mean? Herbert didn’t play well, and he’s not generally been able to win big games (Chiefs, Playoff Jags choke, Playoff Texans). But I think Herbert has the arm, youth, and toughness to improve. They need to keep investing at WR like the Bills, of course they will. A lot of QBs escape criticism - Joe Burrow gets none despite two picks against KC in the 2022 AFCCG and not being able to move the ball at all in the 4th-Quarter, fumble TD against the Chiefs this year, late game picks against the Ravens and Eagles. It wasn’t until last year that Lamar got some whispers after the 2023 AFCCG. Good one, you really got me there with my handle…as opposed to ”Straight Hucklebuck”-that’s some good stuff right there. So here’s the thing with the “keep investing” in weapons comments-THEY HAVE! When Herbert got there, they had several playmakers already, including Ekeler and Keenan Allen. They have used multiple first round picks on offensive linemen and Quentin Johnson. Yes Johnson has been bad, but you can’t say they haven’t invested in weapons. You think Lamar’s just started getting criticized?!?! He has been criticized as much as Allen has! Even on here, how many times have people said he is a running back playing QB Quote
clearwater cadet Posted January 12 Posted January 12 https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEWymggu6ZU/?igsh=MWwwbTBhNXZvZGtpNA== Quote
Sierra Foothills Posted January 13 Posted January 13 21 hours ago, stinky finger said: Did anyone really think Herbert is a top 5 QB? 7 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Yeah I have no idea what this thread is trying to accomplish. Some fragile Buffalo mindset where we have to prove to ourselves that Allen really is good because a similar statured QB lost in the Playoffs. The reason this conversation exists is because 2 years ago and then again last year, Herbert was anointed an elite QB by league insiders in a highly-regarded survey. In both 2022 and 2023 he was ranked in Tier 1 according to Mike Sando's annual ranking system which is based on his conversations with "50 league insiders including general managers, head coaches, coordinators and more, all of whom placed every quarterback into tiers for the annual rankings." A Tier 1 QB "can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game." 2022 was also the first year that Josh Allen appeared in Tier 1 so in 2022 and 2023, Herbert was widely viewed by league insiders as very close to Josh Allen. 2022: 1) Aaron Rodgers 2) Patrick Mahomes 3) Tom Brady 4) Josh Allen 5) Justin Herbert 6) Joe Burrow 2023: 1) Patrick Mahomes 2) Joe Burrow 3) Josh Allen 4) Aaron Rodgers 5) Justin Herbert I believe Herbert was also the AFC's top vote getter among QBs for the 2022 Pro Bowl. For those who can get behind The Athletic/NYT paywall: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/3443022/2022/07/25/nfl-best-quarterbacks-tiers/ https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4723809/2023/07/31/nfl-quarterback-tiers-rankings-2023/ That's why this conversation exists. 1 Quote
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