AP All-Pro Teams Announced. Josh 2nd Team Only Bill.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, folz said:

Not really sure, in the long run, that the schedule can be used to separate Lamar and Josh in any significant way.

 

Alright, so having said all of that, what, specifically, do you think that the people voting for it look at when they make their decision?  

 

i.e., why doesn't Josh get it then?  

 

 

[BarleyNY]

5 hours ago, klos63 said:

Why does everyone keep saying Allen is doing it with less?  I know it's in part to convince themselves that Allen should win, but it's not true. Cook is a top tier RB, we have 2 solid backups. Cooper and Shakir are top tier WR, Mack is solid and Coleman is a solid rookie two very solid TE's, one is a first round pick. A top tier Oline. I mean, come on, this is a great offense. We also have an OC being interviewed for HC jobs and a line coach who has been an excellent NFL coach for a long time.  Allen still deserves the MVP, but he has lots of help, no shame in that.

 

For instance, Lamar has 5 teammates that are first or second team All Pros and Allen has none. So that’s a difference. 

[FireChans]

5 hours ago, klos63 said:

Why does everyone keep saying Allen is doing it with less?  I know it's in part to convince themselves that Allen should win, but it's not true. Cook is a top tier RB, we have 2 solid backups. Cooper and Shakir are top tier WR, Mack is solid and Coleman is a solid rookie two very solid TE's, one is a first round pick. A top tier Oline. I mean, come on, this is a great offense. We also have an OC being interviewed for HC jobs and a line coach who has been an excellent NFL coach for a long time.  Allen still deserves the MVP, but he has lots of help, no shame in that.

Because your definitions of "solid" and "top-tier" is not based on the reality of the NFL.

 

Do we think this team is riddled with All-Pros that all got snubbed?

 

Of course not.

 

You are correct in one regard. Half the people convincing themselves that Allen is "doing more with less" were also praising the Bills for building a super talented team. It's a total contradiction

[tigerthelion]

5 hours ago, klos63 said:

Why does everyone keep saying Allen is doing it with less?  I know it's in part to convince themselves that Allen should win, but it's not true. Cook is a top tier RB, we have 2 solid backups. Cooper and Shakir are top tier WR, Mack is solid and Coleman is a solid rookie two very solid TE's, one is a first round pick. A top tier Oline. I mean, come on, this is a great offense. We also have an OC being interviewed for HC jobs and a line coach who has been an excellent NFL coach for a long time.  Allen still deserves the MVP, but he has lots of help, no shame in that.

Could be because it is true, I suppose. Lamar has more and better weapons than Allen. I mean, that isn't even disputable. 

[Mikey152]

4 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

The only player in "the middle of the field" that would have made a difference in that game is Bernard, and we've allowed quite a few less than stellar rushing performances with him in there.  

 

We're not ranked average in rushing D because of that one game, in fact, remove it and it only marginally impacts our rushing D stats.  

 

It's a lot more likely that Henry just ripped us a new one because we have a smallish front-7 and didn't scheme around that.  

 

 

You missed the part where when the Bills went to three LB without Milano and Bernard, they got destroyed by the RB passing game to Justice Hill and passes over the middle. 
 

Spin it any way you want, but Bernard and Johnson are two of their 5 best defenders, and arguably the two most important leaders. 

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Alright, so having said all of that, what, specifically, do you think that the people voting for it look at when they make their decision?  

 

i.e., why doesn't Josh get it then?  

 

 

The same reason he was voted most overrated. 

[Mikey152]

25 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Because your definitions of "solid" and "top-tier" is not based on the reality of the NFL.

 

Do we think this team is riddled with All-Pros that all got snubbed?

 

Of course not.

 

You are correct in one regard. Half the people convincing themselves that Allen is "doing more with less" were also praising the Bills for building a super talented team. It's a total contradiction

The Bills are…well planned.

 

Lots of depth, lots of complimentary pieces. Leads to a good team that’s greater than the sum of its parts.

 

All that said, it probably doesn’t work without a guy like Josh Allen running the show.

[PBF81]

17 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

You missed the part where when the Bills went to three LB without Milano and Bernard, they got destroyed by the RB passing game to Justice Hill and passes over the middle. 
 

Spin it any way you want, but Bernard and Johnson are two of their 5 best defenders, and arguably the two most important leaders. 

The same reason he was voted most overrated. 

 

So we need "leaders" when playing against Henry?  

 

Well, OK.  At least things are clearing up.  

 

LOL  

 

 

[klos63]

42 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

For instance, Lamar has 5 teammates that are first or second team All Pros and Allen has none. So that’s a difference. 

Maybe flowers, and the center are all pro because of Jackson. Really don't care about the FB.

My praise of our Oline was shot down with the logic that Allen made them better than they are. 

 

[klos63]

31 minutes ago, tigerthelion said:

Could be because it is true, I suppose. Lamar has more and better weapons than Allen. I mean, that isn't even disputable. 

We have a very talented offense, but in order to promote Allen, we try to downplay the talent.  It's homerism at its finest.

Bills fans think it's a joke that Lamar is all pro over Allen,  at the same time, give credibility to the rest of the Ravens all pro selections in order to downplay Lamar’s great season. Can't have it both ways.

I think Allen should win, but Lamar is equally worthy. That shouldn't be too debatable. 

 

 

[folz]

58 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Alright, so having said all of that, what, specifically, do you think that the people voting for it look at when they make their decision?  

 

i.e., why doesn't Josh get it then?  

 

 

 

I have to believe there is some personal bias amongst some of the voters.

 

But the problem really is, there seems to be no set standards for what qualifies as an MVP season...among fans or voters.

 

We hear best stats, best passing stats, best passing stats on the team with the best record, most clutch/big wins, the ability to carry or will your team to victory. Who knows what each voter is using to make their decision. That's exactly the issue.

 

Lamar is absolutely more than worthy of the MVP this year...so is Josh. They both have great stats, great records, are the 2 and 3 seeds in the AFC. It's hard to separate them. Maybe you lean to Josh because of the big games vs. KC and Detroit. Maybe you lean to Lamar due to his stats, since so much else seems even. Heck, give them Co-MVPs this year as far as I'm concerned. So, I won't be upset if Lamar wins over Josh.

 

Last year, however, as I have pointed out, Lamar was 15th in passing yards and 11th in passing TDs. Both Josh and Dak had significantly more overall yards, TDs, and points than Lamar last year (including rushing stats). Lamar only had 1 more win than Dak and 2 more than Josh. Baltimore was a #1 seed, Dallas and Buffalo were #2 seeds. So, why did Lamar win last year with the worst stats of the 4 QBs in the running (Brock Purdy as the 4th)? We were told because he was the #1 seed with the best record (because there was no other case for Lamar last year).

 

Josh has more wins and has a higher seed than Lamar this year. Burrow has better stats than Lamar. But this year, wins and seeding doesn't seem to matter, unless someone has better stats than Lamar, then their record does matter. Again, this isn't anti-Lamar (he's great)...it's the voting process for the award that makes no sense. It's a personal preference award selected by 50 people whose football opinions are no better than anyone else's.

 

That's why it really doesn't matter, because there is no consistency or integrity in the voting.

[Mikey152]

6 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

So we need "leaders" when playing against Henry?  

 

Well, OK.  At least things are clearing up.  

 

LOL  

 

 

I don’t know what to tell you…no Johnson, no Bernard, Rapp hurt early tackling Henry. The middle of the defense was in rough shape. Bishop, Lewis, Spector, Morrow…yes, they were missing leadership on the backend

[Ralonzo]

7 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Bills fans think it's a joke that Lamar is all pro over Allen,  at the same time, give credibility to the rest of the Ravens all pro selections in order to downplay Lamar’s great season. Can't have it both ways.

 

Nah, I can totally see the case for Lamar and Burrow being the All Pro QBs. They had the superior performance all season.

 

MVP is, how much did a single player contribute to a team's success paired with how successful was that team? That's clearly Allen.

 

I'd posit that the argument for Allen as MVP is stronger than his argument to be 2nd team All Pro.

[PBF81]

32 minutes ago, folz said:

That's why it really doesn't matter, because there is no consistency or integrity in the voting.

 

Just that, it doesn't matter, except to fans.  

 

No one on the team is even thinking about this.  They're focused on winning tomorrow and then the rest of the playoffs.  They all know that a Lombardi is worth more than any individual accolades.  

 

 

32 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I don’t know what to tell you…no Johnson, no Bernard, Rapp hurt early tackling Henry. The middle of the defense was in rough shape. Bishop, Lewis, Spector, Morrow…yes, they were missing leadership on the backend

 

I'd say that they were missing some size and muscle, not leadership.  

 

I don't see "leadership" stopping Henry.  

 

And speaking of leadership in the matter ... 

 

 

[Mikie2times]

9 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

We already went over this…Tua was hurt for a significant portion of their season.  Last year, He threw for almost 4700 yards and 29TDs with almost 100 less attempts than Burrow had this year and RBs that scored a ton of touchdowns.

 

make any excuses you want, But Burrow played 17 games this year and didn’t make the playoffs. If Tua had been healthy all year, it’s all but a lock they finish with a better record than the Bengals. Its disingenuous to call them garbage and the Bengals basically a playoff team, especially because both times the Bills played the Dolphins Tua was on the field.

 

i am not retconning anything, btw. I am just pointing out that twisting records or statistics to make a player or team look better or worse shouldnt and doesn’t fly.

 

At the end of the day, the only team of any consequence that the Ravens beat was the Bills, and they beat them by abusing the backups in the middle of the field.  They also lost to two of the worst teams in the league. 

You’re aware of Miami’s record vs teams above .500? 

[Sojourner]

5 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

For instance, Lamar has 5 teammates that are first or second team All Pros and Allen has none. So that’s a difference. 

Very good reference. One that is no doubt overlooked. 

[GunnerBill]

11 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

I'd say that they were missing some size and muscle, not leadership.  

 

I don't see "leadership" stopping Henry.  

 

And speaking of leadership in the matter ... 

 

 

 

They were missing two things:

 

1. Talent. The second level of the defense in that game was a combination of Williams (3rd rounder), Spector (7th rounder), Lewis (UDFA), Morrow (UDFA) and Ingram (UDFA). And Todd Monken's entire game plan was to expose that level. I have said this before but in the first half they ran exactly one offensive play designed to attack a unit other than the linebackers, nickel and dime. 

 

2. Patience. Bobby Babich's adjustment after one play (admittedly a very long TD run by Henry) was to go to 3 linebackers in base. And the next two drives Monken just put Justice Hill on Morrow and they swing pass and screened us to death. By the time they abandoned that it was 21-0. The long Henry run on the first play wasn't about being too light or anything else. It was just about being out executed. The Ravens all hit their landmarks, we didn't an one of the best players of his generation took advantage. He should have stayed in his defense and trusted his guys to execute better. Brining Morrow in and going to base was a disastrous mistake and I called it out in the GDT as soon as he did it. 

 

I would hope a combination of better talent - having Milano, Bernard and Johnson available - and a better, more patient coordinating performance would lead to a different result if we get a do over. But impatience has been a concern of mine on Babich all year. Far from the "he doesn't adjust" narrative my concern is he adjusts way too quickly and often in an ill thought through manner.

Edited Sunday at 12:48 PM by GunnerBill

[I'mBuff]

18 hours ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

Yeah I personally think buffalo has a fantastic roster and top 3 at that. It's a fake narrative that everyone is just mid. Allen is deserving of the MVP because of his historical season and because of historical precedent 

We have 60 million in dead cap space. Zero quality at back up’s spent a fair amount of the season short handed. Allen carried us at times. Baltimore may have the best offensive line in the league. Yes Henry is good, but any competent backs easily gets the yards he’s getting and Jackson benefits from a lack of pressure, he rarely throws into coverage because he almost always has a player wide open. For anyone who’s watched all their games, it shouldn’t be that close between the two. 

[GunnerBill]

18 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I thought Allen probably should have won it last season and probably Lamar this. But if they want to give it to Jackson last season and Allen this, then that’s fine too. Jackson has better stats, but Allen is doing it all with a lot less. 

 

See I don't think Josh should have won it last year. I didn't particularly think Lamar should either and I'm still not totally sure how it happened but Josh was too inconsistent and took mistake prone last year for me. I might have voted for McCaffrey. I am the biggest "it's a QB award" advocate but last year was a kinda sucky year for NFL Quarterbacking. If there was ever a case for a non Quarterback it was 2023.

 

I think if Josh had this season last year he would have been an absolute shoe in.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

13 hours ago, FireChans said:

Because your definitions of "solid" and "top-tier" is not based on the reality of the NFL.

 

Do we think this team is riddled with All-Pros that all got snubbed?

 

Of course not.

 

You are correct in one regard. Half the people convincing themselves that Allen is "doing more with less" were also praising the Bills for building a super talented team. It's a total contradiction

Not me. This guy's out up this kind of year with C tier offensive talent on the roster. 

 

Edited Sunday at 01:13 PM by Pine Barrens Mafia

[Coach Tuesday]

19 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Not me. This guy's out up this kind of year with C tier offensive talent on the roster. 

 

So we shouldn’t trade him to the Bears for picks anymore?