AP All-Pro Teams Announced. Josh 2nd Team Only Bill.

[skibum]

I could see the voters splitting their votes between All Pro and MVP. Give the All-Pro nod to Lamar, give the MVP to Josh. Both are deserving of both honors, so why not give one to each of them - and give the MVP to Josh because he didn't win the last two. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 minutes ago, skibum said:

I could see the voters splitting their votes between All Pro and MVP. Give the All-Pro nod to Lamar, give the MVP to Josh. Both are deserving of both honors, so why not give one to each of them - and give the MVP to Josh because he didn't win the last two. 

I think that’s exactly what’s gonna happen…the whole bills team getting all pro snubbed really strengthens Josh’s mvp case if anything.  All pro seems like it should be more stats based 

Edited Saturday at 06:32 PM by Generic_Bills_Fan

[klos63]

11 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I thought Allen probably should have won it last season and probably Lamar this. But if they want to give it to Jackson last season and Allen this, then that’s fine too. Jackson has better stats, but Allen is doing it all with a lot less. 

Why does everyone keep saying Allen is doing it with less?  I know it's in part to convince themselves that Allen should win, but it's not true. Cook is a top tier RB, we have 2 solid backups. Cooper and Shakir are top tier WR, Mack is solid and Coleman is a solid rookie two very solid TE's, one is a first round pick. A top tier Oline. I mean, come on, this is a great offense. We also have an OC being interviewed for HC jobs and a line coach who has been an excellent NFL coach for a long time.  Allen still deserves the MVP, but he has lots of help, no shame in that.

[Kelly to Allen]

1 minute ago, klos63 said:

Why does everyone keep saying Allen is doing it with less?  I know it's in part to convince themselves that Allen should win, but it's not true. Cook is a top tier RB, we have 2 solid backups. Cooper and Shakir are top tier WR, Mack is solid and Coleman is a solid rookie two very solid TE's, one is a first round pick. A top tier Oline. I mean, come on, this is a great offense. We also have an OC being interviewed for HC jobs and a line coach who has been an excellent NFL coach for a long time.  Allen still deserves the MVP, but he has lots of help, no shame in that.

 

Yeah I personally think buffalo has a fantastic roster and top 3 at that. It's a fake narrative that everyone is just mid. Allen is deserving of the MVP because of his historical season and because of historical precedent 

Edited Saturday at 06:39 PM by Kelly to Allen

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

If Josh doesn’t score the TD to go up by 2 scores, we MIGHT be singing a different tune.

 

We might. But we aren't. The defense played well in that game for the most part. I don't think this defense is good. I have said that repeatedly but they did have a great plan v Kansas City and executed it excellently. Babich got the better of Reid. Was probably his best day of the season. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

13 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Why does everyone keep saying Allen is doing it with less?  I know it's in part to convince themselves that Allen should win, but it's not true. Cook is a top tier RB, we have 2 solid backups. Cooper and Shakir are top tier WR, Mack is solid and Coleman is a solid rookie two very solid TE's, one is a first round pick. A top tier Oline. I mean, come on, this is a great offense. We also have an OC being interviewed for HC jobs and a line coach who has been an excellent NFL coach for a long time.  Allen still deserves the MVP, but he has lots of help, no shame in that.

They’re better than most but Lamar’s job is pretty easy lol. Teams are absolutely loading the box to stop Henry and still can’t and Lamar is just throwing to wide open guys most of the game.  If you swap Josh and Lamar’s teams Josh would be absolutely going off and Lamar would look pretty good imo 

[Big Turk]

53 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/nfl/coach-year-odds/

 

There are the odds. McD fell off recently, but is still 7th. He was higher earlier. I don’t think it’s difficult to make a case that he’s a good coach. But I don’t see any criteria where he is #1 this season.  

 

According to the media and other voters, outside Josh Allen and Dawkins his team is a collection of bums.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

According to the media and other voters, outside Josh Allen and Dawkins his team is a collection of bums.

But somehow that ‘fact’ doesn’t help Josh’s mvp chances haha 

[Ralonzo]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Long snapper: how on earth would you decide? Did Ferguson have a single bad snap this year? Did anyone beat him and block a kick? 

Let the Reid Ferguson Gets No Respect bandwagon begin!

 

 

[H2o]

Just now, klos63 said:

Why does everyone keep saying Allen is doing it with less?  I know it's in part to convince themselves that Allen should win, but it's not true. Cook is a top tier RB, we have 2 solid backups. Cooper and Shakir are top tier WR, Mack is solid and Coleman is a solid rookie two very solid TE's, one is a first round pick. A top tier Oline. I mean, come on, this is a great offense. We also have an OC being interviewed for HC jobs and a line coach who has been an excellent NFL coach for a long time.  Allen still deserves the MVP, but he has lots of help, no shame in that.

Why do people keep saying Allen is doing more with less? Because Allen is actually doing more with less. Because Allen has to constantly overcome the shortcomings of his defense. You call Hollins solid? In his 8 year career, he has had one season with more yards than this year's whopping 378 receiving. Cooper is solid and Shakir is a solid Slot WR. They are good players, but neither of them are "top tier" as you claim. Josh then makes average to below average guys look better than they are because of his understanding of this offense and the way he puts them in position to succeed. Josh also makes this OL look better than they would be with other QB's because of his escapability. He has done this for years. This is probably the best OL out of the rest that he has had, as well as the way Brady has a penchant to use an additional OL'man in his formations. You mention the OC? What about Monken and what he's done to transform the Ravens offense. This offense, and the offense as a whole, is on the shoulders of 17.

 

Not saying Lamar isn't important, because he is an OUTSTANDING player, but all 5 of Baltimore's losses came in games where Henry had 84 yards or fewer. The only games they won where he had less than 100? The Giants, a terrible team all around. And the Bengals twice, a defense that allowed the 8th most points in the league. 

 

Again, both are deserving of whatever accolades they receive. But don't act like anyone else is making Josh, because 17 has easily proven he's in a league of his own this year. 

 

 

[klos63]

13 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

They’re better than most but Lamar’s job is pretty easy lol. Teams are absolutely loading the box to stop Henry and still can’t and Lamar is just throwing to wide open guys most of the game.  If you swap Josh and Lamar’s teams Josh would be absolutely going off and Lamar would look pretty good imo 

It's comical to me how fans need to take Lamar down to plead Allen's case.

They're both having mvp caliber seasons and a compelling case can be made for both.  Discrediting Lamar just ruins credibility in my opinion. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 minutes ago, klos63 said:

It's comical to me how fans need to take Lamar down to plead Allen's case.

They're both having mvp caliber seasons and a compelling case can be made for both.  Discrediting Lamar just ruins credibility in my opinion. 

Is that what you want me to have said so you could make that comment? Lol. Lamar is great but Derrick Henry objectively adds a whole dimension to their offense that Buffalo doesn’t have and it opens a ton in the passing game.   I’m not sure that fact is even debatable. 
 

y’all complain in every single gameday thread about how no one can separate and josh has to do something magical every snap. That is not the situation the ravens are in at all. Josh is highly rated and still somehow underrated imo…he makes everyone around him look good 

Edited Saturday at 07:14 PM by Generic_Bills_Fan

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

That’s a lot of retcon and one-sided arguing…

 

The same could be argued here.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

Take the Bengals for example…how are they much different from a team like the Dolphins?  

 

Getting into the nits of each team is an endless argument every which way.  As to the above, you're taking some extreme liberties here.  Are you comparing Burrow and Tua?  Burrow led the league in passing yards and TDs.  Jackson has most of the other superlatives in passing.  Miami had the easiest schedule in the league and still couldn't score more points than they allowed.  At least Cincy was +38 in point differential to Miami's -19.  That's a half-a-TD per-game difference.  

 

Over half of Cincy's schedule was playoff teams, and despite having been 2-7 therein, of their 7 losses, two were 1-point losses, two more were 3-point losses, and 6 of the 7 were one-possession losses.  Miami played four games against playoff teams, all four were losses, two of which were against us, and their only one-possession loss was against us in Buffalo.  

 

Most people would consider that to be both significant and relevant.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

At the start of the season, the Bills had a WAY tougher schedule on paper. Most of the teams that didn’t perform did so due to injury…but they weren’t injured against the Bills.  

 

Again, a never-ending argument in every which way.  All teams are banged up, I've never seen it be as much of an excuse as it is here.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

Speaking of injury, why does nobody mention injury when we talk about that first meeting with the Ravens? Bernard and Johnson were both out and Shakir got hurt in that game…and that is exactly what the Ravens targeted. They won’t be able to do that this time around.

 

I give up, why not?  I don't think that having either of those players back is going to impact what Henry does however.  

 

At the end of the day I don't think that there's a fan here that wouldn't ultimately rather play Miami than Cincy if it had come to that.  

 

Apart from that, Miami's pretty hapless.  Tua's overrated and not long for the league, McDaniel, ... LOL  Burrow will end up being one of the best QBs in NFL history.  

 

 

Edited Saturday at 07:33 PM by PBF81

[thewookie1]

17 hours ago, klos63 said:

A lot to unpack here.  But how do you know 'the media' hate the Bills and Buffalo? I guess if you ignore the praise the team gets and the praise the fan base gets,  yeah,  you're right. 

The racism call is ridiculous.  Lamar is absolutely deserving of the mvp this season,  so it's Allen.  Are the Allen voters racist for not selecting Lamar.

The voting hasn't taken place yet and you're whining about it.  If Allen wins, will you take back this all back?

 

The hate for the team and city isn't blatant in the sense of outright saying it. But we are the only team with as much success as we have had recently to constantly receive a perpetual status of being usurped by our divisional opponents regardless of our dominance. There are certainly media fans of the city and its fans but many of the old crones with votes seem to scoff at any Buffalo player in regards to awards.

 

Lamar has a claim this year but for the very same reason Josh did last year. It has more to do with media coverage and how many African American pundits became jingoistic about "Lamar for MVP" as soon as he even had a couple good games and seemed to actively target Allen with slander and libel

[CincyBillsFan]

23 minutes ago, klos63 said:

It's comical to me how fans need to take Lamar down to plead Allen's case.

They're both having mvp caliber seasons and a compelling case can be made for both.  Discrediting Lamar just ruins credibility in my opinion. 

It depends what you mean by "discrediting Lamar".  If you mean people are discrediting Lamar because they point out the advantages Lamar has had this year in his surrounding talent and acquisition of King Henry then I very much disagree with you.  To me that is a valid and fair point to bring up.  It's also not discrediting Lamar to point out his shortcomings in the playoffs compared to Allen's elite play in many of his playoff games. After all those supporting Jackson never fail to point out Allen's TO's as being excessive.

 

As an aside I think Jackson is going to explode this playoff season.  He has an abundance of weapons around him and he should be comfortable in the playoffs in a way he hasn't been previously.  If the Bill's & Ravens both win I expect next week to be a shoot out.

 

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

That’s a lot of retcon and one-sided arguing…

 

BTW, I get it, you think that Cincy and MIami are comparable teams, whereas IMO Cincy's better, featuring a significantly better QB and notably better coach.  

 

But allow me to ask, how do you think that Miami would have fared in a division with Baltimore and Pittsburgh, while Cincy would have been in our division with only four games against playoff teams?  

 

Do you still see Miami having been 8-9 and Cincy having been 9-8?  

 

Because I can easily see Cincy having been 11-6 or 12-5, with Miami having easily been drafting in the top-10.  

 

 

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Mr. Assumed MVP had 5 teammates make All Pro, wins 12 games. 

 

Josh Allen has no all pro teammates. Wins 14.

 

Okay.

After those 5 teammates and the 3 other pro bowlers there is a serious drop in talent on that roster. 😂 

[Mikey152]

15 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

The same could be argued here.  

 

 

 

Getting into the nits of each team is an endless argument every which way.  As to the above, you're taking some extreme liberties here.  Are you comparing Burrow and Tua?  Burrow led the league in passing yards and TDs.  Jackson has most of the other superlatives in passing.  Miami had the easiest schedule in the league and still couldn't score more points than they allowed.  At least Cincy was +38 in point differential to Miami's -19.  That's a half-a-TD per-game difference.  

 

Over half of Cincy's schedule was playoff teams, and despite having been 2-7 therein, of their 7 losses, two were 1-point losses, two more were 3-point losses, and 6 of the 7 were one-possession losses.  Miami played four games against playoff teams, all four were losses, two of which were against us, and their only one-possession loss was against us in Buffalo.  

 

Most people would consider that to be both significant and relevant.  

 

 

 

Again, a never-ending argument in every which way.  All teams are banged up, I've never seen it be as much of an excuse as it is here.  

 

 

 

I give up, why not?  I don't think that having either of those players back is going to impact what Henry does however.  

 

At the end of the day I don't think that there's a fan here that wouldn't ultimately rather play Miami than Cincy if it had come to that.  

 

Apart from that, Miami's pretty hapless.  Tua's overrated and not long for the league, McDaniel, ... LOL  Burrow will end up being one of the best QBs in NFL history.  

 

 

We already went over this…Tua was hurt for a significant portion of their season.  Last year, He threw for almost 4700 yards and 29TDs with almost 100 less attempts than Burrow had this year and RBs that scored a ton of touchdowns.

 

make any excuses you want, But Burrow played 17 games this year and didn’t make the playoffs. If Tua had been healthy all year, it’s all but a lock they finish with a better record than the Bengals. Its disingenuous to call them garbage and the Bengals basically a playoff team, especially because both times the Bills played the Dolphins Tua was on the field.

 

i am not retconning anything, btw. I am just pointing out that twisting records or statistics to make a player or team look better or worse shouldnt and doesn’t fly.

 

At the end of the day, the only team of any consequence that the Ravens beat was the Bills, and they beat them by abusing the backups in the middle of the field.  They also lost to two of the worst teams in the league. 

[PBF81]

5 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

At the end of the day, the only team of any consequence that the Ravens beat was the Bills, and they beat them by abusing the backups in the middle of the field.  They also lost to two of the worst teams in the league. 

 

The only player in "the middle of the field" that would have made a difference in that game is Bernard, and we've allowed quite a few less than stellar rushing performances with him in there.  

 

We're not ranked average in rushing D because of that one game, in fact, remove it and it only marginally impacts our rushing D stats.  

 

It's a lot more likely that Henry just ripped us a new one because we have a smallish front-7 and didn't scheme around that.  

 

 

[folz]

4 hours ago, PBF81 said:

I can't imagine that Allen cares.

 

Also, the Ravens were 7-3 against playoff teams whereas we were 2-3 against playoff teams.  They also played in a notably tougher division and obviously had a tougher schedule.  At the end of the day Jackson posted better numbers across the board.  

 

Let's win now and win the AFC, otherwise it cements the argument.  

 

 

 

Just throwing some stats at your post:

 

Yes, Baltimore had the tougher schedule based on wins and losses:

Ravens' opponents records: 153-136 (52.9 win%)

Bills' opponents records: 135-154 (46.7 win%)

 

No question Ravens are in a tougher division. I don't really see Miami as a worse team than the Steelers or Bengals (when Tua is playing, which he did for both Buffalo games this year)...but they only have one cakewalk (CLE) as opposed to two for us (Jets/NE). Not that any division game is a cake walk really, no matter what the records are. And their bottom two teams only had 3 more wins than our bottom two teams and we threw away one of our games against one of our bottom-feeders. But, still, edge to the Ravens.

 

As to against playoff teams, the Ravens played more playoff teams and had a better record, but the Bills playoff opponents were of a slightly higher caliber overall:

The Bills playoff opponents were 62-23 (or 72.9 win%)

The Ravens playoff opponents were 115-55 (or 67.6 win%)

 

The non-common playoff opponents that the Ravens played that the Bills did not were: Pittsburgh (twice), Denver, Washington, Tampa, Philly, and LA Chargers. Not saying the Bills win all of them, but I think we'd be favored in at least 6 out of those 7 games. 

 

The non-common playoff opponents that the Bills played that the Ravens didn't were: Detroit, LA Rams. What does Baltimore do? 2-0, 1-1, 0-2?

 

Common opponents (KC & HOU): Buffalo 1-1; Bal: 1-1. [And Baltimore played Houston at the end of the year after their WR room had been decimated.]

 

You can only play who is on your schedule. Who knows what their records against playoff teams would be if they played the same playoff opponents. Probably pretty similar.

 

Average offensive score per game against playoff opponents:

Bal: 29.7

Buf: 30.0

 

Against 12+ win teams

Buf: 2-1

Bal: 2-2

 

Against Division-winning teams

Buf: 3-2

Bal: 3-2

 

Buffalo:  Best wins: Detroit (15-2), KC (15-2).

              Worst losses: Rams (10-7, div winner), Houston (10-7, div winner)

 

Baltimore: Best wins: Buffalo (13-4), Wash (12-5)

                  Worst losses: Cleveland (3-14), Las Vegas (4-13)

 

Not really sure, in the long run, that the schedule can be used to separate Lamar and Josh in any significant way.