AP All-Pro Teams Announced. Josh 2nd Team Only Bill.

[JaCrispy]

15 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

 

Lamar will win MVP.  He got 30 1st Team All Pro votes.  Josh got 18 

I believe the AP voters may be the same  (not positive)

All Pro and MVP are based on different criteria 

[Doc Brown]

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

All Pro and MVP are based on different criteria 

They are but you have to go back to the 80's where a 2nd team All Pro QB won MVP.  Crazier things have happened at awards shows though.  I remember Shakespeare in Love beating out Saving Private Ryan for best picture at the Oscars.

[folz]

3 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

When they show a QB’s stats on TV do they show his rushing TD’s with his passing TD’s? They don’t. As a result they don’t get looked at equally and really, in the scheme of the MVP they haven’t even mattered historically. Argue that if you want, but that’s where the evidence points. 

 

Well, historically, there haven't been as many running QBs as there are now. We had Cunningham, Vick, and Cam. All in different eras basically. But, with the way the league is changing and with how many QBs have significant rushing stats these days, they should take it into account (for all QBs). I think it is a convenient excuse (to ding running QBs---or specifically Josh) to not take their rushing ability into account. It seems like people take it into account for Lamar.

 

But, as far as passing stats alone (no rushing stats), it looks like this:

 

2023:

Lamar   3,678 yards   24 TDs    7 INTs

Josh     4,306 yards   29 TDs   18 INTs

Dak       4,516 yards   36 TDs     9 INTs

Brock    4,280 yards  31 TDs     11 INTs

 

2024:

Lamar    4,172 yards   41 TDs   4 INTs

Josh      3,731 yards   28 TDs   6 INTs

Burrow  4,918 yards   43 TDs   9 INTs

 

Career:

Lamar   20,059 yards   166 TDs   49 INTs

Josh     26,434 yards   195 TDs   84 INTs

 

Playoffs: 

Lamar   1,324 yards   6 TDs    6 INTs

Josh     2,723 yards  21 TDs   4 INTs

 

So, if it's who has the best passing stats, then why didn't Dak win last year? And I guess Burrow should win this year. Not really sure what you are arguing. I mean, how did Lamar win last year then, when he was 15th in passing yards in the league and 11th in passing TDs. Are you telling me that they didn't take his rushing stats into account at all?

[folz]

4 hours ago, DapperCam said:

Turnovers equate to 4 points for the other team? I find that actually unbelievable. Do you have a citation for that?

 

Either last year, or in the off-season, I found a paper/article that did a statistical study and said that on average a turnover equates to 4 points for the opposing team. I'll try to find the article again and post it.

[Rich Stadium Original]

Aside from Allen....

I know the Chiefs had absolutely awful offensive tackles, but had a guard and center named as All Pro, yet as a team they were just below middle of the pack in sacks allowed (with a very shifty Mahommes behind them) while the Bills led the league in least sacks allowed.

Also, the Bills had an RB that led the league in rushing touchdowns, and a quarterback who wasn't far behind, yet NO Bills offensive linemen were considered.

[Negan]

11 minutes ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

Aside from Allen....

I know the Chiefs had absolutely awful offensive tackles, but had a guard and center named as All Pro, yet as a team they were just below middle of the pack in sacks allowed (with a very shifty Mahommes behind them) while the Bills led the league in least sacks allowed.

Also, the Bills had an RB that led the league in rushing touchdowns, and a quarterback who wasn't far behind, yet NO Bills offensive linemen were considered.

The NFL media is in love with Creed Humphrey and Joe Thuney.... Once the media loves you, get your hall of fame bust ready.

 

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, Negan said:

The NFL media is in love with Creed Humphrey and Joe Thuney.... Once the media loves you, get your hall of fame bust ready.

 

 

Creed's is deserved. He has had another outstanding year. Thuney I think you can quibble with a bit more. I'd have gone Landon Dickerson over him, but he was third and Thuney didn't give up a sack all year so it is hardly a scandal.

[UKBillFan]

6 hours ago, MJS said:

I do generally agree. Jackson has been propped up by the media. But this season he did really ball out. He had an incredible year. If Josh Allen had won it last year like he deserved, I'd be all for Jackson getting it this year. But he didn't, so I want some justice for him. Josh deserves an MVP.

 

That being said, Jackson really did solidify himself as a truly elite QB this year for me. I had my doubts before, but I don't anymore. Even as a passer, he is elite.

 

I think this is where I am. Lamar has had an incredible year. So has Josh. If the latter had one in last year, then no issue with Lamar this time around. But they need to stop changing the criteria to suit their agenda.

 

Edit: Reading the above, perhaps even Dak last year and Lamar this would have been fair enough, going off this year's apparent criteria.

Edited January 11 by UKBillFan

[Ray Stonada]

All Josh needs is to have an average (for him) year and the Bills to be the number one seed.

 

MVP and probably first team All-Pro will be in the bag.

 

For the record, I think he probably has the MVP this year anyway. The odds changed based on Lamar being named AP1, not because of any change in polled voters. 

[DCofNC]

8 hours ago, Blank Stare said:

I didn’t say they weren’t better. Just not worlds better that the media is making it out to be. Especially when you factor in if Josh needed to play in every game and not go vanilla game plan for a lot of the last month of the season (instead of sitting out boat races in the 4th qtr or the last Cheats game) a lot of his stats likely would’ve been the same or better. 
 

Look, I got no problem with Lamar being offensive player of the year or first team all pro QB if you’re going purely off stats. Lamar has had a great season and has earned that. My problem is that first team all pro QB has been a lock for MVP forever.
 

If you think the AP MVP voters are capable of such nuanced thinking this year where they are able to distinguish first team all-pro from MVP as a stats vs. moments/context award and give it to Josh Allen, then I’ll eat crow. You won’t hear nary a word from me on that because I think that’s completely fair and consistent with what they told us last year. But…that type of thinking, with the precedent that has been set with the historical correlation between first team all pro QB and MVP, it is not on our side. 

I hear what you are saying, let’s just see how it plays out before getting too excited.

[uticaclub]

5 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Allen (AND possibly several of his teammates) getting snubbed is an AMAZING DEVELOPMENT for the Bills playoff outlook. JA17 has ALWAYS been hugely motivated by his snubs, going back to high school. He absolutely cooks as an underdog. Part of the reason I don't hate his admiration of Tom Brady: Brady's best attribute was his Jordan-esque, petty NEED to prove doubters wrong. Allen has some of that chip on his shoulder, but without being a ragingly unlikable prick. 

 

Predicting Allen to be a MONSTER in these playoffs makes sense for those who have been paying close attention to him. Look at this year already. "Turnover machine" was the dominant narrative. Followed by the "no supporting cast" and "rebuilding/retooling year" and "window closing" tropes. Way back when it was "can't teach accuracy." 

 

I LOVE the snubs.  

Allen being snubbed isn’t going to help our defense play better

[colin]

17 hours ago, Augie said:

Notre Dame has one 5 Star recruit, and they are beating teams with 15-20.  Those are just labels handed out by strangers. It’s a team game. 

 

honestly, this is a big basis of all of this.  in college, up until a couple of years ago, the champion was decided by media opinion.  it is still influential because how you are ranked at the end of the season gets you into the tourney, and how you and opponents are ranked early makes a big impact on how much love you will get for playing well enough to be in the conversation.

 

every nfl player was a college player in their more formative years, so that culture is imbued in nfl football too. 

 

it's pretty obvious the bills have talent deficit to other nfl teams.  big dead cap, only 3 or 4 players drafted outside of allen who can be compared to the top of their position (both tackles, benford, kindaaaaaaa cook) and our big name FA guys are old and underwhelming (von, cooper).  mcd is a good but not great coach, and allen is the greatest player in nfl history, at least over the past 5 years. 

 

two years ago baltimore was one fluke turnover in the redzone from beating cinci late in the year with huntley at qb.  they've overall added talent since then.  lamar is a great regular season qb, but he's starting on third base compared to allen.  

[HOUSE]

Josh deserves 2nd string, he threw that INT in week 5 and didn't seem to care

Edited January 11 by HOUSE

[ganesh]

8 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Both. He led the league in passing yards like 3 straight seasons or something. At the time threw for most passing yards in history which is why he won Offensive Player of the Year.

 

It's not one of my criteria. Its the HoF criteria or at least there has not ever been a QB in SB era without one of those things. I also don't bank on law of averages thing. People vote on this stuff. The same people that don't give Allen any respect and always find an excuse to not give him something. Winning a SB is probably the easiest way but that takes a team and good fortune and good luck and a lot of other stuff. I like to believe Allen will win one eventually but thats not even close to a given.

Most of the SB winners have not been a "given"....The team that is hot in the playoffs and gets the lucky breaks usually wins it.

 

Even the 16-0 Patriots lost in the Superbowl

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

Allen being snubbed isn’t going to help our defense play better

I think the Defense is going to put on a show tomorrow.  

[BillsFan130]

6 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Allen (AND possibly several of his teammates) getting snubbed is an AMAZING DEVELOPMENT for the Bills playoff outlook. JA17 has ALWAYS been hugely motivated by his snubs, going back to high school. He absolutely cooks as an underdog. Part of the reason I don't hate his admiration of Tom Brady: Brady's best attribute was his Jordan-esque, petty NEED to prove doubters wrong. Allen has some of that chip on his shoulder, but without being a ragingly unlikable prick. 

 

Predicting Allen to be a MONSTER in these playoffs makes sense for those who have been paying close attention to him. Look at this year already. "Turnover machine" was the dominant narrative. Followed by the "no supporting cast" and "rebuilding/retooling year" and "window closing" tropes. Way back when it was "can't teach accuracy." 

 

I LOVE the snubs.  

Yep agreed - "ironic" how he got voted most overrated before the year and then he goes out and has his best season to date.

 

He definitely plays his best when he feels slighted 

[Shaw66]

I'm not interested so much in Josh. Second team, all pro makes some sense, and I understand you can make arguments either way.

 

I'm more interested in the fact that there are 44 spots on the first and second teams for All pro, which would mean that on average a team should have 1+ player on the all-gro team. In the case of a really good team, like the Bills, you would expect that they would have two or three or maybe even four players among the 44. The Bills have only one. What does that mean?

 

I think what it means is that the overall talent on the Bills roster does not include any stars other than Josh. That's something we've known for a long time. And that leads me to the conclusion that the real award that is missing from the Bills is coach of the year. If the team is under talented compared to the great teams in the league and to the league in general, then it must mean that the coach is doing an outstanding job compiling the record he has compiled.

[Mikie2times]

6 hours ago, folz said:

 

Well, historically, there haven't been as many running QBs as there are now. We had Cunningham, Vick, and Cam. All in different eras basically. But, with the way the league is changing and with how many QBs have significant rushing stats these days, they should take it into account (for all QBs). I think it is a convenient excuse (to ding running QBs---or specifically Josh) to not take their rushing ability into account. It seems like people take it into account for Lamar.

 

But, as far as passing stats alone (no rushing stats), it looks like this:

 

2023:

Lamar   3,678 yards   24 TDs    7 INTs

Josh     4,306 yards   29 TDs   18 INTs

Dak       4,516 yards   36 TDs     9 INTs

Brock    4,280 yards  31 TDs     11 INTs

 

2024:

Lamar    4,172 yards   41 TDs   4 INTs

Josh      3,731 yards   28 TDs   6 INTs

Burrow  4,918 yards   43 TDs   9 INTs

 

Career:

Lamar   20,059 yards   166 TDs   49 INTs

Josh     26,434 yards   195 TDs   84 INTs

 

Playoffs: 

Lamar   1,324 yards   6 TDs    6 INTs

Josh     2,723 yards  21 TDs   4 INTs

 

So, if it's who has the best passing stats, then why didn't Dak win last year? And I guess Burrow should win this year. Not really sure what you are arguing. I mean, how did Lamar win last year then, when he was 15th in passing yards in the league and 11th in passing TDs. Are you telling me that they didn't take his rushing stats into account at all?

It’s not the best passing stats void of every other factor. It’s the best passing stats on usually the most successful team. The NFL has been this way for its entire existence. This is the first place I have seen rushing stats always listed in the same grouping as passing stats. Which is logical in some ways, not logical in others, but not how the rest of the league is viewing the data. 

Edited January 11 by Mikie2times

[DapperCam]

3 hours ago, Ray Stonada said:

All Josh needs is to have an average (for him) year and the Bills to be the number one seed.

 

MVP and probably first team All-Pro will be in the bag.

 

For the record, I think he probably has the MVP this year anyway. The odds changed based on Lamar being named AP1, not because of any change in polled voters. 

It does kind of make me wonder if the Broncos don’t have their GW FG blocked, and the Raiders center doesn’t inexplicably snap it in range for the GW FG when nobody was ready if Allen wins MVP. Two fluke plays that allowed the Chiefs to be the #1 seed that have nothing to do with us.

[PBF81]

I can't imagine that Allen cares.

 

Also, the Ravens were 7-3 against playoff teams whereas we were 2-3 against playoff teams.  They also played in a notably tougher division and obviously had a tougher schedule.  At the end of the day Jackson posted better numbers across the board.  

 

Let's win now and win the AFC, otherwise it cements the argument.  

 

 

Edited January 11 by PBF81

[MikePJ76]

13 hours ago, klos63 said:

Do you know the results?

It is announced super bowl week