folz Posted January 11 Posted January 11 6 hours ago, Big Turk said: It is patently ABSURD that the most productive player in the history of the NFL on a per game basis in both the regular season AND post season is going to 0 MVP's after 7 years. 6 hours ago, Doc Brown said: Prescott had better numbers last year than Allen or Lamar. He should be the comparison. Again, at this point, I have given up on caring about awards. If the criteria changes each year to suit personal preferences, then the award is meaningless. But, just for fun, I thought that I would post some comparison numbers/stats: 2024 [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar 613 attempts 5,057 yards 45 TDs 9 TOs QBR: 77.5 Record: 12-5, 3rd seed AFC Josh 585 attempts 4,367 yards 40 TDs 8 TOs QBR: 77.2 Record: 13-4, 2nd seed AFC For those discussing how much Josh sat due to the team being up...if you prorate Josh's stats to the number of Lamar's attempts, Lamar is still 511 yards ahead of Josh, and Josh would have 43 TDs, still two behind Lamar. But, as others have said, Josh didn't have an almost 2,000-yard, MVP candidate next to him at RB, nor 8 Pro-Bowlers and 3 All-Pros on his team (only 2 Pro Bowlers and 0 All Pros for Josh's team)---excluding Lamar and Josh from those numbers. And record, seeding, and winning big games late in the year (like KC and Detroit) seemed to matter last year, hmmm. 2023 [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar 605 attempts 4,499 yards 29 TDs 14 TOs QBR: 64.7 Record 13-3, 1st seed AFC Josh 690 attempts 4,830 yards 44 TDs 22 TOs QBR: 69.6 Record 11-6, 2nd seed AFC Dak 645 attempts 4,758 yards 38 TDs 11 TOs QBR: 72.7 Record 12-5, 2nd seed NFC Purdy 483 attempts 4,424 yards 33 TDs 13 TOs QBR: 72.8 Record 12-5, 1st seed NFC Turnovers were the big talking point last year for Josh. But, he had 15 more TDs than Lamar too (never discussed). Turnovers generally equate to 4 points for the opposing team. So, even if you subtract 4 points for each turnover (for all QBs) from their total points scored (TDs), their positive points scored would work out to: Dak: 222 points; Josh 220 points; Brock 179 points; and Lamar: 147 points. Career [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar Reg. Season Record: 70-24 26,232 yards 199 TDs 78 TOs QBR: 64.7 Josh Reg. Season Record: 76-34 30, 576 yards 260 TDs 112 TOs QBR: 93.0 If you pro-rated Lamar's stats to the same number of games/attempts as Josh (who has played 16 games more over their careers), it would look like this: Lamar 31,966 yards 242 TDs 95 TOs Pretty hard not to celebrate both of these guys. But as far as the pro-rated stats go...as they say, the best ability is availability. Playoffs [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar Record: 2-5 307.5 yards/game 1.5 TDs/game 1.5 TOs/game 18.8 points/game average -19 point differential Josh Record: 5-5 328.6 yards/game 2.7 TDs/game 0.6 TOs/game 26.9 points/game average +21 point differential This, obviously, is the kicker...their playoff performances thus far. I like Lamar a lot, and as C.Biscuit said, we shouldn't have to knock Lamar (a great player) to promote Josh. The issue is with the voters, not with Lamar. But, they can give every award they want to Lamar (or Joe Burrow with his 9-win, no playoff season---how was he even in the discussion?), I'll still take Josh every day of the week. Screw his overall NFL legacy, if they don't want to actually give him his proper due, in Buffalo he will always be a god. 2 2 Quote
Mr. WEO Posted January 11 Posted January 11 19 minutes ago, ganesh said: Be careful - These AP reporters are also the HoF voters. Not true: "The (HOF) Committee consists of one media representative from each pro football city — with two from New York and two from Los Angeles, as those cities each have two teams in the National Football League. There can be up to 17 at-large Selectors, who are active members of the media or persons intricately involved in professional football, and one representative of the Pro Football Writers of America. All appointments are reviewed annually and approved by a majority vote of the Hall of Fame's Board of Directors". AP is voted on by AP writers. Quote
DCofNC Posted January 11 Posted January 11 10 hours ago, Blank Stare said: Oh I agree. It’s coming. Never mind Lamar’s stats aren’t that much better and Josh has sit out the equivalent of two full games because they didn’t need the game (pats) or they were kicking the other teams ass so badly he could sit. Clowns. F them. Lamar’s stats really are better, sorry, not sorry. Allen’s were better than Lamar’s by the same margin last year. I think Lamar getting 1st team AP and Allen winning MVP would be entirely accurate. 35 minutes ago, Saint Douggie said: Rename it the DEI award lol fn libs Please check your inbox for your warning. J/K, but seriously it’ll be there. Quote
Buffalo716 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 1 hour ago, ganesh said: Be careful - These AP reporters are also the HoF voters. MVP criteria is not the same as Hall of Fame lol There's no question Josh has the records and stats to be a first ballot Hof Quote
Blank Stare Posted January 11 Posted January 11 8 minutes ago, DCofNC said: Lamar’s stats really are better, sorry, not sorry. Allen’s were better than Lamar’s by the same margin last year. I think Lamar getting 1st team AP and Allen winning MVP would be entirely accurate. I didn’t say they weren’t better. Just not worlds better that the media is making it out to be. Especially when you factor in if Josh needed to play in every game and not go vanilla game plan for a lot of the last month of the season (instead of sitting out boat races in the 4th qtr or the last Cheats game) a lot of his stats likely would’ve been the same or better. Look, I got no problem with Lamar being offensive player of the year or first team all pro QB if you’re going purely off stats. Lamar has had a great season and has earned that. My problem is that first team all pro QB has been a lock for MVP forever. If you think the AP MVP voters are capable of such nuanced thinking this year where they are able to distinguish first team all-pro from MVP as a stats vs. moments/context award and give it to Josh Allen, then I’ll eat crow. You won’t hear nary a word from me on that because I think that’s completely fair and consistent with what they told us last year. But…that type of thinking, with the precedent that has been set with the historical correlation between first team all pro QB and MVP, it is not on our side. Quote
DapperCam Posted January 11 Posted January 11 1 hour ago, folz said: Again, at this point, I have given up on caring about awards. If the criteria changes each year to suit personal preferences, then the award is meaningless. But, just for fun, I thought that I would post some comparison numbers/stats: 2024 [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar 613 attempts 5,057 yards 45 TDs 9 TOs QBR: 77.5 Record: 12-5, 3rd seed AFC Josh 585 attempts 4,367 yards 40 TDs 8 TOs QBR: 77.2 Record: 13-4, 2nd seed AFC For those discussing how much Josh sat due to the team being up...if you prorate Josh's stats to the number of Lamar's attempts, Lamar is still 511 yards ahead of Josh, and Josh would have 43 TDs, still two behind Lamar. But, as others have said, Josh didn't have an almost 2,000-yard, MVP candidate next to him at RB, nor 8 Pro-Bowlers and 3 All-Pros on his team (only 2 Pro Bowlers and 0 All Pros for Josh's team)---excluding Lamar and Josh from those numbers. And record, seeding, and winning big games late in the year (like KC and Detroit) seemed to matter last year, hmmm. 2023 [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar 605 attempts 4,499 yards 29 TDs 14 TOs QBR: 64.7 Record 13-3, 1st seed AFC Josh 690 attempts 4,830 yards 44 TDs 22 TOs QBR: 69.6 Record 11-6, 2nd seed AFC Dak 645 attempts 4,758 yards 38 TDs 11 TOs QBR: 72.7 Record 12-5, 2nd seed NFC Purdy 483 attempts 4,424 yards 33 TDs 13 TOs QBR: 72.8 Record 12-5, 1st seed NFC Turnovers were the big talking point last year for Josh. But, he had 15 more TDs than Lamar too (never discussed). Turnovers generally equate to 4 points for the opposing team. So, even if you subtract 4 points for each turnover (for all QBs) from their total points scored (TDs), their positive points scored would work out to: Dak: 222 points; Josh 220 points; Brock 179 points; and Lamar: 147 points. Career [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar Reg. Season Record: 70-24 26,232 yards 199 TDs 78 TOs QBR: 64.7 Josh Reg. Season Record: 76-34 30, 576 yards 260 TDs 112 TOs QBR: 93.0 If you pro-rated Lamar's stats to the same number of games/attempts as Josh (who has played 16 games more over their careers), it would look like this: Lamar 31,966 yards 242 TDs 95 TOs Pretty hard not to celebrate both of these guys. But as far as the pro-rated stats go...as they say, the best ability is availability. Playoffs [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar Record: 2-5 307.5 yards/game 1.5 TDs/game 1.5 TOs/game 18.8 points/game average -19 point differential Josh Record: 5-5 328.6 yards/game 2.7 TDs/game 0.6 TOs/game 26.9 points/game average +21 point differential This, obviously, is the kicker...their playoff performances thus far. I like Lamar a lot, and as C.Biscuit said, we shouldn't have to knock Lamar (a great player) to promote Josh. The issue is with the voters, not with Lamar. But, they can give every award they want to Lamar (or Joe Burrow with his 9-win, no playoff season---how was he even in the discussion?), I'll still take Josh every day of the week. Screw his overall NFL legacy, if they don't want to actually give him his proper due, in Buffalo he will always be a god. Turnovers equate to 4 points for the other team? I find that actually unbelievable. Do you have a citation for that? Quote
Scott7975 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 3 hours ago, klos63 said: A lot to unpack here. But how do you know 'the media' hate the Bills and Buffalo? I guess if you ignore the praise the team gets and the praise the fan base gets, yeah, you're right. The racism call is ridiculous. Lamar is absolutely deserving of the mvp this season, so it's Allen. Are the Allen voters racist for not selecting Lamar. The voting hasn't taken place yet and you're whining about it. If Allen wins, will you take back this all back? The media cant wait to crap on the Bills lol. See the off season. See any time they make one mistake Its not, but there is some on both sides IMO. The voting took place this past Wednesday. Its already done. Just not announced. I wouldnt take anything back. The media has already empowered fan mobs with MVPitty award. Its going to be looked at as a joke forever. Just like I think Lamars award last year was a joke but no one else does. Only in our case we would be the only ones who don't think its a joke. 3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: It's not going to hurt his legacy Josh Allen has already punched his ticket to a first ballot Hall of Fame .. the media's legacy is moot It would most certainly hurt his legacy if he were to never get any hardware. You think Lamar getting MV3 doesnt cement a legacy for him? Well the opposite is true if he had none. 1 Quote
Scott7975 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 3 hours ago, Kelly to Allen said: Really? Nobody talks about Warren Moon or Phillip Rivers if Rivers gets in. He won't be ranked among the greats unless things change. At this point he's going to need 2 super bowl victories There is no QB in the HoF in the super bowl era without some type of hardware... going to the superbowl, winning the superbowl, mvps, or at the very least player of the year. Quote
Scott7975 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said: MVP criteria is not the same as Hall of Fame lol There's no question Josh has the records and stats to be a first ballot Hof He does not. Show me a qb in the super bowl era that is in the HoF with no superbowls, no mvps, or at the very least no player of the year awards. There are none. Josh has not earned a HoF ballot at all. Edited January 11 by Scott7975 Quote
Doc Brown Posted January 11 Posted January 11 22 minutes ago, Scott7975 said: There is no QB in the HoF in the super bowl era without some type of hardware... going to the superbowl, winning the superbowl, mvps, or at the very least player of the year. Dan Fouts? Quote
Scott7975 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 1 minute ago, Doc Brown said: Dan Fouts? 1982 Offensive Player of the Year Quote
Doc Brown Posted January 11 Posted January 11 5 minutes ago, Scott7975 said: 1982 Offensive Player of the Year That's what put him over the top or was it consistently excellent stats over his career? BTW, minus a career ending injury Allen will accomplish one of your criteria at minimum. Law of averages. Quote
Mikie2times Posted January 11 Posted January 11 2 hours ago, folz said: Again, at this point, I have given up on caring about awards. If the criteria changes each year to suit personal preferences, then the award is meaningless. But, just for fun, I thought that I would post some comparison numbers/stats: 2024 [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar 613 attempts 5,057 yards 45 TDs 9 TOs QBR: 77.5 Record: 12-5, 3rd seed AFC Josh 585 attempts 4,367 yards 40 TDs 8 TOs QBR: 77.2 Record: 13-4, 2nd seed AFC For those discussing how much Josh sat due to the team being up...if you prorate Josh's stats to the number of Lamar's attempts, Lamar is still 511 yards ahead of Josh, and Josh would have 43 TDs, still two behind Lamar. But, as others have said, Josh didn't have an almost 2,000-yard, MVP candidate next to him at RB, nor 8 Pro-Bowlers and 3 All-Pros on his team (only 2 Pro Bowlers and 0 All Pros for Josh's team)---excluding Lamar and Josh from those numbers. And record, seeding, and winning big games late in the year (like KC and Detroit) seemed to matter last year, hmmm. 2023 [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar 605 attempts 4,499 yards 29 TDs 14 TOs QBR: 64.7 Record 13-3, 1st seed AFC Josh 690 attempts 4,830 yards 44 TDs 22 TOs QBR: 69.6 Record 11-6, 2nd seed AFC Dak 645 attempts 4,758 yards 38 TDs 11 TOs QBR: 72.7 Record 12-5, 2nd seed NFC Purdy 483 attempts 4,424 yards 33 TDs 13 TOs QBR: 72.8 Record 12-5, 1st seed NFC Turnovers were the big talking point last year for Josh. But, he had 15 more TDs than Lamar too (never discussed). Turnovers generally equate to 4 points for the opposing team. So, even if you subtract 4 points for each turnover (for all QBs) from their total points scored (TDs), their positive points scored would work out to: Dak: 222 points; Josh 220 points; Brock 179 points; and Lamar: 147 points. Career [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar Reg. Season Record: 70-24 26,232 yards 199 TDs 78 TOs QBR: 64.7 Josh Reg. Season Record: 76-34 30, 576 yards 260 TDs 112 TOs QBR: 93.0 If you pro-rated Lamar's stats to the same number of games/attempts as Josh (who has played 16 games more over their careers), it would look like this: Lamar 31,966 yards 242 TDs 95 TOs Pretty hard not to celebrate both of these guys. But as far as the pro-rated stats go...as they say, the best ability is availability. Playoffs [All attempts, yards, TDs, and turnovers are combined passing and rushing] Lamar Record: 2-5 307.5 yards/game 1.5 TDs/game 1.5 TOs/game 18.8 points/game average -19 point differential Josh Record: 5-5 328.6 yards/game 2.7 TDs/game 0.6 TOs/game 26.9 points/game average +21 point differential This, obviously, is the kicker...their playoff performances thus far. I like Lamar a lot, and as C.Biscuit said, we shouldn't have to knock Lamar (a great player) to promote Josh. The issue is with the voters, not with Lamar. But, they can give every award they want to Lamar (or Joe Burrow with his 9-win, no playoff season---how was he even in the discussion?), I'll still take Josh every day of the week. Screw his overall NFL legacy, if they don't want to actually give him his proper due, in Buffalo he will always be a god. When they show a QB’s stats on TV do they show his rushing TD’s with his passing TD’s? They don’t. As a result they don’t get looked at equally and really, in the scheme of the MVP they haven’t even mattered historically. Argue that if you want, but that’s where the evidence points. Quote
Scott7975 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: That's what put him over the top or was it consistently excellent stats over his career? BTW, minus a career ending injury Allen will accomplish one of your criteria at minimum. Law of averages. Both. He led the league in passing yards like 3 straight seasons or something. At the time threw for most passing yards in history which is why he won Offensive Player of the Year. It's not one of my criteria. Its the HoF criteria or at least there has not ever been a QB in SB era without one of those things. I also don't bank on law of averages thing. People vote on this stuff. The same people that don't give Allen any respect and always find an excuse to not give him something. Winning a SB is probably the easiest way but that takes a team and good fortune and good luck and a lot of other stuff. I like to believe Allen will win one eventually but thats not even close to a given. Edited January 11 by Scott7975 Quote
Doc Brown Posted January 11 Posted January 11 3 minutes ago, Scott7975 said: Both. He led the league in passing yards like 3 straight seasons or something. At the time threw for most passing yards in history which is why he won Offensive Player of the Year. It's not one of my criteria. Its the HoF criteria or at least there has not ever been a QB in SB era without one of those things. I also don't bank on law of averages thing. People vote on this stuff. The same people that don't give Allen any respect and always find an excuse to not give him something. Winning a SB is probably the easiest way but that takes a team and good fortune and good luck and a lot of other stuff. I like to believe Allen will win one eventually but thats not even close to a given. Win our next three games and he'll meet that minimum criteria. Don't lose sleep over an award. Quote
MJS Posted January 11 Posted January 11 3 hours ago, The Helmet of said: The last thing I want to do is get into a race discussion on this platform. But it’s obvious that it plays into it. If Josh were Jayden or Jaylen or whatever he’d be a slam dunk for MVP. Instead he’s just plain old Josh. Being called overrated and trash by his peers and laughed at despite being objectively a generational hall of fame talent. Our American cultural landscape is obsessed with race. Race discussion is as much entertainment at this point as anything else. Lamar has had an awesome season but so has Josh. The tie will always go to Lamar never mind he has 9 pro bowlers, a hall of fame running back, a top D, and an inferior record. Preposterous. Let’s just go ahead and rename the MVP award the Lamar Jackson Award. The LJA. That would placate our cultural need for deifying the black QB. I almost prefer it this way. Let’s get past Denver and then have them go head to head in Buffalo. The voters can then choke on their own stupidity and be exposed for their inability to see past skin color. If you disagree with me, fair play. I won’t argue back. JMHO… I do generally agree. Jackson has been propped up by the media. But this season he did really ball out. He had an incredible year. If Josh Allen had won it last year like he deserved, I'd be all for Jackson getting it this year. But he didn't, so I want some justice for him. Josh deserves an MVP. That being said, Jackson really did solidify himself as a truly elite QB this year for me. I had my doubts before, but I don't anymore. Even as a passer, he is elite. 2 2 Quote
Buffalo716 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Scott7975 said: He does not. Show me a qb in the super bowl era that is in the HoF with no superbowls, no mvps, or at the very least no player of the year awards. There are none. Josh has not earned a HoF ballot at all. Jim Kelly never won a super bowl never won an MVP never won a player of the year Warren Moon never won a super bowl or an AP MVP Edited January 11 by Buffalo716 Quote
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted January 11 Posted January 11 Dead serious the 2nd team would slap the ***** out of the first team 1 Quote
Scott7975 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Doc Brown said: Win our next three games and he'll meet that minimum criteria. Don't lose sleep over an award. I'm not losing sleep over it. Just posting facts. 1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said: Jim Kelly never won a super bowl never won an MVP never won a player of the year Warren Moon never won a super bowl or an AP MVP Jim Kelly went to 4 straight superbowls. Warren Moon was 1990 Offensive Player of the Year. Quote
Richard Noggin Posted January 11 Posted January 11 Allen (AND possibly several of his teammates) getting snubbed is an AMAZING DEVELOPMENT for the Bills playoff outlook. JA17 has ALWAYS been hugely motivated by his snubs, going back to high school. He absolutely cooks as an underdog. Part of the reason I don't hate his admiration of Tom Brady: Brady's best attribute was his Jordan-esque, petty NEED to prove doubters wrong. Allen has some of that chip on his shoulder, but without being a ragingly unlikable prick. Predicting Allen to be a MONSTER in these playoffs makes sense for those who have been paying close attention to him. Look at this year already. "Turnover machine" was the dominant narrative. Followed by the "no supporting cast" and "rebuilding/retooling year" and "window closing" tropes. Way back when it was "can't teach accuracy." I LOVE the snubs. 1 2 Quote
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